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  1. #1
    Community Member DrawingGuy's Avatar
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    Default Change Spell Touch Range to -100 Spell DCs on Epic Defensive Fighting for Divine

    I know there is a lot of controversy over the new Epic Defensive Fighting feat. I realize that this feat is not made for every melee, and there is always the option to simply not run it, however I consider how Epic Defensive Fighting affects Divine spells, scrolls, wands as detrimental to team play. It prevents melee players from being able to support other players, and allows more toxic Divine players to deliberately ignore their party members as now they have a self-serving feat that prevents them from supporting others. I don't think the choice should be "help myself? Or help others?". I believe there is a way that you can restrict the stance while still leaving team play unaffected:

    - Remove the restriction of touch-range to Divine spells, and add "-100 to Spell DCs"

    We do need to leave Spell Touch range restriction ONLY for Arcane spells. Arcane spells have too many no-save spells, so if you want to prevent Shiradi and Ice casters from being effective (which few play that as reliable CC is what is needed to survive Reapers, so even a blanket change of touch to killing DCs would still be effective), but Divine spells have none unless the Arcane spells they can get access to (like Energy Drain, or Clerics with Power Words) are only seen as Divine. The only spell that may pose a concern is Destruction due to its damage portion of a failed save, and that can be one-off added to the touch-range list.

    This change ultimately would still prevent most forms of offensive spellcasting while still allowing for team play of melees.
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  2. #2
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    Quote Originally Posted by DrawingGuy View Post
    I know there is a lot of controversy over the new Epic Defensive Fighting feat. I realize that this feat is not made for every melee, and there is always the option to simply not run it, however I consider how Epic Defensive Fighting affects Divine spells, scrolls, wands as detrimental to team play. It prevents melee players from being able to support other players, and allows more toxic Divine players to deliberately ignore their party members as now they have a self-serving feat that prevents them from supporting others. I don't think the choice should be "help myself? Or help others?". I believe there is a way that you can restrict the stance while still leaving team play unaffected:

    - Remove the restriction of touch-range to Divine spells, and add "-100 to Spell DCs"

    We do need to leave Spell Touch range restriction ONLY for Arcane spells. Arcane spells have too many no-save spells, so if you want to prevent Shiradi and Ice casters from being effective (which few play that as reliable CC is what is needed to survive Reapers, so even a blanket change of touch to killing DCs would still be effective), but Divine spells have none unless the Arcane spells they can get access to (like Energy Drain, or Clerics with Power Words) are only seen as Divine. The only spell that may pose a concern is Destruction due to its damage portion of a failed save, and that can be one-off added to the touch-range list.

    This change ultimately would still prevent most forms of offensive spellcasting while still allowing for team play of melees.
    Or, if possible, just make it not affect healing spells. I mean, many monk abilities would be affected if their DCs were lowered.
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  3. #3
    Community Member DrawingGuy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by karatemack View Post
    Or, if possible, just make it not affect healing spells. I mean, many monk abilities would be affected if their DCs were lowered.
    There are many types of healing spells, and also spells/scrolls like Resurrection and Restoration are extremely important. I would think a general change to a classification of spellcasting would be much easier for the devs to change and make it where team-play is not being borked than it would be to adjust individual spells.

    Also I was talking about SPELL DCs, not tactics. This change not affect Monk, or any other form tactics or ability that did not use spell DCs. This, however, would indeed kick Monks that use Mass Frog or others that use Soundburst/BoGW for additional CC away from the ability to do that. I *do* mix in such spells on some of my melee builds, and as such, I would not use the Epic Defenses feat (more CC is stronger than more HP anyways).

    As it stands, I consider the new feat as toxic to team play. I think that needs to change. I'm hoping this is a way that the restrictions can meet the dev goals while allowing us to work together.
    Pinc Punch - Unarmed Monk (Uber Completionist) // Porc the Orc - Paladin // Thunderborn - Warlock // Imustbe Emo - PewPew Rogue // Aquamine Artifact - Crafting Artificer (shelved)

  4. #4
    Community Member LeoLionxxx's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DrawingGuy View Post
    There are many types of healing spells, and also spells/scrolls like Resurrection and Restoration are extremely important. I would think a general change to a classification of spellcasting would be much easier for the devs to change and make it where team-play is not being borked than it would be to adjust individual spells.

    *snip*

    As it stands, I consider the new feat as toxic to team play. I think that needs to change. I'm hoping this is a way that the restrictions can meet the dev goals while allowing us to work together.
    I agree, the willingness and ability to heal others is something that groups need in order to succeed in high-difficulty content.

    Quote Originally Posted by FlimsyFirewood View Post
    We have a fix in the works for this that will make Epic Defensive Stance not restrict the range of quest-specific spells, but we'll have to turn this on for them on individual basis.
    If practical, I believe healing and resurrection spells should be excluded from being reduced to touch-range. Players shouldn't have to choose between being able to personally survive, and helping their teammates.
    Quote Originally Posted by Lynnabel View Post
    Pshaw, when have we ever done something like that before. DDO is bug free, I assure you.
    That's not lag, it's just DDO trying to become turn-based again.

  5. #5
    Community Member Yamani's Avatar
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    Or you could just not use it... Toggle it off if you need to raise the group.

  6. #6
    Community Member HuneyMunster's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DrawingGuy View Post

    - Remove the restriction of touch-range to Divine spells, and add "-100 to Spell DCs"
    This would kill Warpriest/Soul, some bard, arti builds and any planned changes to improve Eldridtch Knight, along with any other highbred build that uses melee and spells for cc.
    Last edited by HuneyMunster; 09-17-2018 at 02:42 AM.

  7. #7
    Community Member DrawingGuy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LeoLionxxx View Post
    If practical, I believe healing and resurrection spells should be excluded from being reduced to touch-range. Players shouldn't have to choose between being able to personally survive, and helping their teammates.
    While I agree, I see two concerns. First is individual work vs bulk work - my suggestion might be easier. Second, and the main reason for the suggestion, is the fact that heal spells can be used offensively against undead. This is a reason I think they may balk at allowing for heal spells to be excluded, and by making them alway fail DC checks would make such attempts of inefficient SP spending twice as bad and hopefully acceptable to the touch range exception so we can actually team play.

    Quote Originally Posted by Yamani View Post
    Or you could just not use it... Toggle it off if you need to raise the group.
    Several issues with that. First is they designed the feat to not be toggled off and on - it takes a few seconds to toggle on where you can't move or do anything or it gets interrupted and put on cooldown. So even toggling it off for a party raise, which is often when mobs are still alive, means you can't turn it back on to fight leaving you in the one-shot-melee range that the feat was meant to help counter. Second is there is more to support than just raising - Reaper kicks self-healing in the teeth because it was designed for people to heal each other. And even if you have a dedicated healer in party, sometimes the healer needs healing. This is a near-constant need for the party, so the "just not use it" I see as the "choose between yourself or the party" - aka this feat is toxic to team play.

    Quote Originally Posted by HuneyMunster View Post
    This would kill Warpriest/Soul, some bard, arti builds and any planned changes to improve Eldridtch Knight, along with any other highbred build that uses melee and spells for cc.
    This, however, does go back to Yamani's "just not use it". If you want to be a casting melee, than indeed the feat won't work for you. The devs made it 100% clear that they are OK with the feat not fitting all melee types - it is why they do not have it stack with Fighter/Paladin HP from stance. Currently I see the feat as incompatible with ALL melee players that are not completely selfish, and I'm hoping they can allow for party play while still having the feat.
    Pinc Punch - Unarmed Monk (Uber Completionist) // Porc the Orc - Paladin // Thunderborn - Warlock // Imustbe Emo - PewPew Rogue // Aquamine Artifact - Crafting Artificer (shelved)

  8. #8
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    You are taking a bad feat and making it worse. Toggle the feat off if you don't want the restriction. Run to your teammate to heal. Explain to your team that they need to stay clustered together now for healing purposes.

    It's not ideal, but completely trashing any kind of melee/caster build (bard, cleric, favored soul, artificer, druid, eldritch knight) just so your fighter can use cocoon from across the map is a worse idea.
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  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by DrawingGuy View Post
    I know there is a lot of controversy over the new Epic Defensive Fighting feat. I realize that this feat is not made for every melee, and there is always the option to simply not run it, however I consider how Epic Defensive Fighting affects Divine spells, scrolls, wands as detrimental to team play. It prevents melee players from being able to support other players, and allows more toxic Divine players to deliberately ignore their party members as now they have a self-serving feat that prevents them from supporting others. I don't think the choice should be "help myself? Or help others?". I believe there is a way that you can restrict the stance while still leaving team play unaffected:

    - Remove the restriction of touch-range to Divine spells, and add "-100 to Spell DCs"

    We do need to leave Spell Touch range restriction ONLY for Arcane spells. Arcane spells have too many no-save spells, so if you want to prevent Shiradi and Ice casters from being effective (which few play that as reliable CC is what is needed to survive Reapers, so even a blanket change of touch to killing DCs would still be effective), but Divine spells have none unless the Arcane spells they can get access to (like Energy Drain, or Clerics with Power Words) are only seen as Divine. The only spell that may pose a concern is Destruction due to its damage portion of a failed save, and that can be one-off added to the touch-range list.

    This change ultimately would still prevent most forms of offensive spellcasting while still allowing for team play of melees.
    omg are you fecking nuts, this would destroy hybred builds. instead of getting a nice
    boost like the devs have provided this would decimate them. is that what you really want?

    also what about the hundreds/thousands of solo players this would criple them too or is this
    what you also want?

    i got to admit here that this is one of the worst things ive seen suggested for this game.

    your friend sil

  10. #10
    Community Member K_9's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HuneyMunster View Post
    This would kill Warpriest/Soul, some bard, arti builds and any planned changes to improve Eldridtch Knight, along with any other highbred build that uses melee and spells for cc.
    This would also kill Druid wolf/bear builds in addition to god knows how many ED or epic abilities that are technically not spells either.. On a separate matter I wouldn't be in the last bit surprised if it affected turn undead lol

  11. #11
    Community Member TDarkchylde's Avatar
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    All along, the restriction that would have been easiest and made the most sense would have been to exempt spells that take the Empower Healing metamagic.
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  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by DrawingGuy View Post
    It prevents melee players from being able to support other players, and allows more toxic Divine players to deliberately ignore their party members as now they have a self-serving feat that prevents them from supporting others.

    Good grief, who are you running with? I have never seen that issue. If someone acts like that, don't run with them. End of problem.
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