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  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by J-mann View Post
    Your build would improve literally in every single way by taking 6 levels of fighter. You do not loose any melee applicable spells. You still make a great off healer. You get far and away superior damage. You can also use a domain OTHER than war to be viable (infact you can now use animal and be vastly superior to your build). Literally in every single way as a melee warpriest you would be better off going with kensai. THAT is the issue. The T5s and cores NEED improvement to make the tree an interesting choice (not asking for equal or better dps than kensai but something to make it interesting, say better spell casting, wis to hit and damage in the t5 exctra.). The tree as it is now is completely dead and no one who isnt playing a favor build should use it as a main tree. Further, there is no decent pair tree for warpriest due to the suck that is RS with its way way too costly and weak enhancements. At least War Soul gets angel of vengence and beacon which have some really nice dips for a warsoul. I do not understand people that try to defend an obviously super weak and inferior tree.
    Do you still get level 9 spells?

    Again, what melee damage numbers are you looking for? Considering you can also work out casting very easily as well???
    Griglok (main)- Cleric (TRing), Duelcore- Wiz 18/FvS 2, Embezzler- Rogue, Fiergen- Ftr 8/Rgr 6/Mnk 6, Greyhead- monk, Havegun- Ftr 2/Pal 18, Jayberwocky- Ftr 8/Mnk 12, Laciolux- Clr 16/FvS 4, Prototech- Artificer, Rendorc- Barbarian, Seasharp- Bard
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  2. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by karatemack View Post
    Incorrect. There are many variants of Warpriest build that work well now. I posted the one that allows for melee damage and casting ability (since the OP said they wanted a hybrid DC caster/melee DPS build). Call it a "patch" rather than a "pass" if you must, but to claim Warpriest is "still incredibly weak after its pass" is false.
    No to claim that it isnt incredibly weak after the pass is false. See what I did there? you make unsubstantiated claims, I point out that spending 6 levels to get a real tree gets you everything you need from cleric/warpriest and more and all you can say is its viable. Well guess what, EK is "viable" does that make it useful at all? no. The only thing I see warpriest used AT ALL for is as a splash for divine might. Why? because its cores suck, its t5 sucks, inflame sucks and is way too ap intensive, its active attacks except smite suck, its damage lines sucks due to the requirements. If you want to actually play a warpriest, you know a hybrid caster/mdps, you need falconry which is beyond dumb, and there is little in the tree to improve this aspect. I want to see a competitive warpriest tree such that there is a reason to stay pure and take warpriest t5 and possibly capstone over 6 levels of fighter or ranger. Right now there just isnt a logical reason.

  3. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by J-mann View Post
    No to claim that it isnt incredibly weak after the pass is false. See what I did there? you make unsubstantiated claims, I point out that spending 6 levels to get a real tree gets you everything you need from cleric/warpriest and more and all you can say is its viable. Well guess what, EK is "viable" does that make it useful at all? no. The only thing I see warpriest used AT ALL for is as a splash for divine might. Why? because its cores suck, its t5 sucks, inflame sucks and is way too ap intensive, its active attacks except smite suck, its damage lines sucks due to the requirements. If you want to actually play a warpriest, you know a hybrid caster/mdps, you need falconry which is beyond dumb, and there is little in the tree to improve this aspect. I want to see a competitive warpriest tree such that there is a reason to stay pure and take warpriest t5 and possibly capstone over 6 levels of fighter or ranger. Right now there just isnt a logical reason.
    You don't need Falconry... go STR based. It's hardly an unsubstantiated claim when I posted the build. Feel free to check it out. :P
    Griglok (main)- Cleric (TRing), Duelcore- Wiz 18/FvS 2, Embezzler- Rogue, Fiergen- Ftr 8/Rgr 6/Mnk 6, Greyhead- monk, Havegun- Ftr 2/Pal 18, Jayberwocky- Ftr 8/Mnk 12, Laciolux- Clr 16/FvS 4, Prototech- Artificer, Rendorc- Barbarian, Seasharp- Bard
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  4. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by karatemack View Post
    Do you still get level 9 spells?

    Again, what melee damage numbers are you looking for? Considering you can also work out casting very easily as well???
    What level nine spells are applicable to a primary melee? Answer NONE of them. 14 levels is more than sufficient to be an off healer. Further you cannot get workable spell dcs unless you have falconry too which is a major insult. As for dps, COULD YOU PLEASE READ WHAT IM WRITING, I am not asking for warpriest to have dps that equates to kensai, but I do want things that make the choice between the two interesting. Again, if you even bother to read, I want something along the lines of the druid trees, not top tier dps trees but they make it up with utility. I have listed suggestions, give divine vessel a knock down or some sort of other debuff and improve its counter mechanic. Make the blind attack an aoe with a dc or at a bare minimum always a blind not just randomly. Make the silence attack have a sp debuff like the wolf tree. Give wis to hit and damage in the tree. Give something in the T5 to help with spell casting certain schools (evocation and conjuration would be my choices). Make inflame worth the ap by making its uptime not rediculously bad, should be action boost uptime at WORST. Make the cores more worth while, make the blur core provide the 25% rather than normal blur, make the haste core grant permahaste, and the capstone, I think something like Aura would be interesting, all mobs that hit you must make a save or be blinded. Again, things that might not be straight dps boosts but give me a reason to choose warpriest over kensai, becuase right now as a melee divine its a no brainer to use a different tree.

  5. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by karatemack View Post
    You don't need Falconry... go STR based. It's hardly an unsubstantiated claim when I posted the build. Feel free to check it out. :P
    And be strictly inferior to anyone that took kensai as ive already pointed out. Actually the can take kensai AND use a better weapon as they are not locked behind crummy favored weapons. You wanting to take divine power on a nonstr build makes me question you completely. You can cast the spell natively and get the only benefit that matters, why waste ap?

  6. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by J-mann View Post
    What level nine spells are applicable to a primary melee? Answer NONE of them. 14 levels is more than sufficient to be an off healer. Further you cannot get workable spell dcs unless you have falconry too which is a major insult.
    DCs for what content? EE/LE or Reaper? For Reaper I agree with you... for EE/LE you just need to swap gear. But... you shouldn't be able to be all things melee and DC caster in Reaper on a single toon anyway. An insta-killer with top-tier DPS for bosses... who needs a group?

    As for dps, COULD YOU PLEASE READ WHAT IM WRITING, I am not asking for warpriest to have dps that equates to kensai, but I do want things that make the choice between the two interesting. Again, if you even bother to read, I want something along the lines of the druid trees, not top tier dps trees but they make it up with utility.
    The reason I'm asking for numbers is so I (and others, perhaps even the devs) can better understand where you think it should be at. It makes for a far more productive conversation if we understand where the goalposts are. 4k-6.5k damage on a divine melee seemed like decent numbers to me. Where do you think kensai or druid fall in relation to this? Doublestrike %?

    I have listed suggestions, stuff
    I believe where you and I differ, and probably the devs from your perspective as well, is that I recognize how easy it is to achieve most of what you're asking for here with spells. The divine spell list should not be ignored when designing these trees.
    Griglok (main)- Cleric (TRing), Duelcore- Wiz 18/FvS 2, Embezzler- Rogue, Fiergen- Ftr 8/Rgr 6/Mnk 6, Greyhead- monk, Havegun- Ftr 2/Pal 18, Jayberwocky- Ftr 8/Mnk 12, Laciolux- Clr 16/FvS 4, Prototech- Artificer, Rendorc- Barbarian, Seasharp- Bard
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  7. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by J-mann View Post
    What level nine spells are applicable to a primary melee? Answer NONE of them. 14 levels is more than sufficient to be an off healer. Further you cannot get workable spell dcs unless you have falconry too which is a major insult. As for dps, COULD YOU PLEASE READ WHAT IM WRITING, I am not asking for warpriest to have dps that equates to kensai, but I do want things that make the choice between the two interesting. Again, if you even bother to read, I want something along the lines of the druid trees, not top tier dps trees but they make it up with utility. I have listed suggestions, give divine vessel a knock down or some sort of other debuff and improve its counter mechanic. Make the blind attack an aoe with a dc or at a bare minimum always a blind not just randomly. Make the silence attack have a sp debuff like the wolf tree. Give wis to hit and damage in the tree. Give something in the T5 to help with spell casting certain schools (evocation and conjuration would be my choices). Make inflame worth the ap by making its uptime not rediculously bad, should be action boost uptime at WORST. Make the cores more worth while, make the blur core provide the 25% rather than normal blur, make the haste core grant permahaste, and the capstone, I think something like Aura would be interesting, all mobs that hit you must make a save or be blinded. Again, things that might not be straight dps boosts but give me a reason to choose warpriest over kensai, becuase right now as a melee divine its a no brainer to use a different tree.
    id just like to say something concerning what you have wrote above if i may.

    you ask what level 9 spell are applicable to melee, you answered none and im afraid
    that is wrong. level 9 spell every melee would love is IMPLOSION. case in point is monks
    and mass frog and rogue and consume. even better a melee that could do implosion,
    mass frog and consume would be godly and im working on this

    your friend sil

  8. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by karatemack View Post
    DCs for what content? EE/LE or Reaper? For Reaper I agree with you... for EE/LE you just need to swap gear. But... you shouldn't be able to be all things melee and DC caster in Reaper on a single toon anyway. An insta-killer with top-tier DPS for bosses... who needs a group?



    The reason I'm asking for numbers is so I (and others, perhaps even the devs) can better understand where you think it should be at. It makes for a far more productive conversation if we understand where the goalposts are. 4k-6.5k damage on a divine melee seemed like decent numbers to me. Where do you think kensai or druid fall in relation to this? Doublestrike %?



    I believe where you and I differ, and probably the devs from your perspective as well, is that I recognize how easy it is to achieve most of what you're asking for here with spells. The divine spell list should not be ignored when designing these trees.

    Solid DPS numbers CANNOT be offered without knowing what utility levels you are going to offer, point in case the druid trees (not to mention druid has much superior high level spells that WORK with melee stating). Not sure why this is hard for you to understand, but the dps warpriest should offer depends GREATLY on what utility the tree offers. At its current utility it honestly should be 85-90% of what T5 kensai offers at bare minimum and its not even close to that. You also CANNOT ignore what 6 levels of fighter offers, which you are. 4 feats, a solid primary tree, a great secondary tree, and not being tied to **** weapons is a huge deal. The spells past level 6 are largely of unimportance to a primary melee dps, so they really are light on the scale. Again, you seem to ignore what warpriest should be and what it should be doing, a primary melee dps with some backup dc casting and healing and to do so it needs to either offer the utility in the form of spells and special attacks or the raw dps to compete. Druid trees do this well, warpriest fails utterly.

  9. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by J-mann View Post
    Solid DPS numbers CANNOT be offered without knowing what utility levels you are going to offer, point in case the druid trees (not to mention druid has much superior high level spells that WORK with melee stating). Not sure why this is hard for you to understand, but the dps warpriest should offer depends GREATLY on what utility the tree offers. At its current utility it honestly should be 85-90% of what T5 kensai offers at bare minimum and its not even close to that. You also CANNOT ignore what 6 levels of fighter offers, which you are. 4 feats, a solid primary tree, a great secondary tree, and not being tied to **** weapons is a huge deal. The spells past level 6 are largely of unimportance to a primary melee dps, so they really are light on the scale. Again, you seem to ignore what warpriest should be and what it should be doing, a primary melee dps with some backup dc casting and healing and to do so it needs to either offer the utility in the form of spells and special attacks or the raw dps to compete. Druid trees do this well, warpriest fails utterly.
    You have MORE utility, not less, on a melee Cleric. It has Domains, Turn Undead Abilities, Deity Feats... oh yeah... and enhancements (you're not spending ALL of your points in just Warpriest after all).

    What would the damage numbers look like with 6 levels of fighter? What would the defensive differences be? What would the doublestrike be?

    What about if I splash some Rogue to do traps as well? Vishtani with Blood of Vol and Warpriest which can heal the party and trap?

    There are tons of build variety choices you can make in order to increase defenses, melee damage, spell dcs, spell damage, add trapping, etc. Before War Domain and the Warpriest overhaul, melee Clerics were in abysmal shape. Now they're viable even for endgame levels of content. The changes you suggest just simply aren't necessary. And the statement you make in the title of this thread "Warpriest is still incredibly weak" is verify-ably false. Many builds seeking to min/max splash other classes. However, for effective melee damage on a Cleric you don't have to, and you still have TONS of options. Again, the devs got this one right.
    Griglok (main)- Cleric (TRing), Duelcore- Wiz 18/FvS 2, Embezzler- Rogue, Fiergen- Ftr 8/Rgr 6/Mnk 6, Greyhead- monk, Havegun- Ftr 2/Pal 18, Jayberwocky- Ftr 8/Mnk 12, Laciolux- Clr 16/FvS 4, Prototech- Artificer, Rendorc- Barbarian, Seasharp- Bard
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    Quote Originally Posted by karatemack View Post
    You have MORE utility, not less, on a melee Cleric. It has Domains, Turn Undead Abilities, Deity Feats... oh yeah... and enhancements (you're not spending ALL of your points in just Warpriest after all).

    What would the damage numbers look like with 6 levels of fighter? What would the defensive differences be? What would the doublestrike be?

    What about if I splash some Rogue to do traps as well? Vishtani with Blood of Vol and Warpriest which can heal the party and trap?

    There are tons of build variety choices you can make in order to increase defenses, melee damage, spell dcs, spell damage, add trapping, etc. Before War Domain and the Warpriest overhaul, melee Clerics were in abysmal shape. Now they're viable even for endgame levels of content. The changes you suggest just simply aren't necessary. And the statement you make in the title of this thread "Warpriest is still incredibly weak" is verify-ably false. Many builds seeking to min/max splash other classes. However, for effective melee damage on a Cleric you don't have to, and you still have TONS of options. Again, the devs got this one right.
    Oh man the strawman and just plain wrong in this post is funny. We are not comparing warpriest to a pure fighter. I am unsure on why you CANNOT grasp this, maybe actually reading my posts and not strawmanning would do you some good. A 14/6 splash gets everything you just listed and much, much, more. THAT IS THE ISSUE. No one but you will t5 much less capstone warpriest and for good reason unless it offers something good enough to pass up the massive damage benefit that is kensai or tempest or vistani or AA (pick your weapon and style). They can actually use logic.

    As for defensive benefits, at least 25 prr/mrr due to stance. Damage difference, too high to even compare. Night and day differences. The change from a crummy favored weapon to a decent one alone is tremendous. Not to mention the massive amount of melee power, cirt mods that dont require war domain, extra action boosts, haste boost, far better damage line, need I go on? Warpriest is still verify-ably weak, infact the second weakest pre tree for melees in the game to t5 just ahead of EK, which hasnt gotten a pass. Sorry you saying its "viable" is meaningless dribble. There is 0 situations where it is a better choice than choosing another tree. Again the devs got this one beyond wrong, everyone but you pointed this out in the thread and was ignored.

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    Quote Originally Posted by J-mann View Post
    Oh man the strawman and just plain wrong in this post is funny. We are not comparing warpriest to a pure fighter. I am unsure on why you CANNOT grasp this, maybe actually reading my posts and not strawmanning would do you some good. A 14/6 splash gets everything you just listed and much, much, more. THAT IS THE ISSUE. No one but you will t5 much less capstone warpriest and for good reason unless it offers something good enough to pass up the massive damage benefit that is kensai or tempest or vistani or AA (pick your weapon and style). They can actually use logic.

    As for defensive benefits, at least 25 prr/mrr due to stance. Damage difference, too high to even compare. Night and day differences. The change from a crummy favored weapon to a decent one alone is tremendous. Not to mention the massive amount of melee power, cirt mods that dont require war domain, extra action boosts, haste boost, far better damage line, need I go on? Warpriest is still verify-ably weak, infact the second weakest pre tree for melees in the game to t5 just ahead of EK, which hasnt gotten a pass. Sorry you saying its "viable" is meaningless dribble. There is 0 situations where it is a better choice than choosing another tree. Again the devs got this one beyond wrong, everyone but you pointed this out in the thread and was ignored.
    Please tell me the damage numbers you expect when splashing 6 fighting since they are "too high to even compare". Typically, not always, but typically people who don't know what they're talking about on these forums don't post actual numbers, builds or videos. If you like, the next time I roll my Cleric into a Warpriest I'll record some video to help you out. At this point it just seems like you want to scream "THE SKY IS FALLING" when, in fact, everything is just fine.
    Griglok (main)- Cleric (TRing), Duelcore- Wiz 18/FvS 2, Embezzler- Rogue, Fiergen- Ftr 8/Rgr 6/Mnk 6, Greyhead- monk, Havegun- Ftr 2/Pal 18, Jayberwocky- Ftr 8/Mnk 12, Laciolux- Clr 16/FvS 4, Prototech- Artificer, Rendorc- Barbarian, Seasharp- Bard
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  12. #32
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    If you go STR based, it's probably better to go 6 levels of fighter, or else you are pretty much going main healer later. If you go wisdom based, go pure because 9 levels of spells, good dcs, and you still have great "off" dps. There is no need to be an off healer. You can be a warpriest and a main healer or switch to decent dps. That's the nice thing about it.
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    I think just a few tweaks would get war priest up to snuff....

    - wis to hit/dmg in cores L6 and 12
    - radiant flourish should be light based cleave on 6s CD
    - the T5 attack should be on great cleave CD, not counter based...or at worst a 12 sec cd.
    - inflame should give you 10% chance on hit to reset radiant flourish

    There's other tweaks that are needed but I think that would give pure war priests all their fundamentals and a mechanic/play style that's distinct from other melee classes. And scaling the cleaves on 200% spell power would make the light/fire spell power boosts useful, along the same vein as aura locks (who even get metas on their cleaves)

  14. #34
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    It would also be nice if they ever do finish updating radiant servant tree, divine disciple

    Just put the heal aura back in the 12 core for rs please
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  15. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by karatemack View Post
    FVS needed a bump to get them a little closer to Clerics and they still fall short. The only thing FVS splits do better than Clerics currently is spell spamming.
    FvS can't Turn, Cleric Can - win for Cleric (if they are in a dungeon with undead)
    FvS don't get domains, Clerics do - win for Cleric
    FvS can't change spells easily, Cleric can - win for Cleric (but in practice, the spells chosen don't get changed much)
    FvS gets all Deity feats for free, Cleric has to pay for some (meaning less feats free for other things) - win for FvS
    FvS doesn't get heavy armour, Cleric does - win for Cleric (but FvS has a lot more feat slots so can take this easily if they want)
    FvS get Jump as a class skill, Cleric doesn't (rest of list is the same) - win for FvS
    FvS gets energy absorption, Cleric doesn't - win for FvS
    FvS gets leap of faith, Cleric doesn't - win for FvS
    FvS gets damage reduction, Cleric doesn't - win for FvS
    FvS get Wis or Cha to Hit/Dmg, Cleric doesn't - win for FvS
    FvS gets to invest in one stat for everything, Cleric still needs Cha for turning, Wis for Spells, Str for Combat - Win for FvS
    FvS get more Spell Points than Cleric, and one stat focus means huge spell point count, even if melee focused - win for FvS
    FvS get Free HP or SP, Cleric doesn't - Win for FvS
    FvS get Crit Range/Damage in War Soul Tree for 1AP more than Cleric, Cleric have to take War Domain (cutting them off from other melee domain choices, and giving them a Level 5 ability that's non-synergistic with the tree) - Win for FvS

    Pure FvS War Soul comes out well ahead of Pure Cleric War Priest and the updates to AoV work well to allow a spellcasting hybrid with. The only real issue for FvS (which impacts Clerics too) is that the Devs, with the recent pass, decided to pigeon hole Priest into Heavy armour in Tier 5 and Soul into Medium, rather than giving a multi-selector to both, of Heavy/Medium (Current Cleric option, only widened) or Medium/Light (Current FvS option, widened) so people could have build choices rather than build restrictions.

    A lot of things that could improve War Priest are things that would impact War Soul too, e.g.:
    • Haste and Blur could be swapped round in position in the cores; Haste could be a perma-grant as well as a spell; Blur could become Displacement (and offer both spells in spellbook) - nothing gamebreaking here
    • DR could be replaced by % Absorption (as per bbn) and appear in more cores, so it scales with investment
    • Smites could add Light & Fire damage if favoured weapon is being wielded, scaling with light and fire spellpower and increasing with Righteous Weapons progression (thus becoming increasingly powerful the more that is invested in the tree). To even out favoured weapon imbalances, the amount of damage could be higher for low damage weapons and vice versa.
    • Divine Vessel could change to stacking to once every 0.5s rather than every 1s when paired with Capstone (still needs 25 charges, but fills up in 12.5s) and could stack up to 24 while you have a charge unused. That way, you can use it roughly every 12s, in line with a lot of other combat abilities.

    On top of this:
    • Divine Power should grant the same abilities for War Priest and War Soul (as should the passives in core 5) - the Str then becomes a useful bonus for dealing with encumbrance that you get for free with the other benefits
    • Wis to hit/dmg can be added into the War Priest Cores or the Righteous Weapon line - either way rewarding dedication to your deity by understanding of combat

    Melee focussed clerics can then choose between the domains they want (including the non-War Domain melee domains) and War Domain is still there for multi-class clerics who want to invest in their non-Cleric trees but still gain the benefit of Holy Sword and weapon proficiencies.
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