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Thread: Armour Class

  1. #1
    Community Member Amorais's Avatar
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    Default Armour Class

    Hi all,

    I'm wondering has anyone tried just seeing how far they get using no armour at all?

    It occurred to me while playing my 120+ AC Paladin that it just didnt seem to make any difference, I was still getting hit just as much as if I had 60 AC. I had a bard that switched from light to medium armour after going from spellsinger to warchanter. Nearly doubled his AC however I was getting hit just as much as before. It literally seemed to make absolutely no difference.

    I generally solo on normal/hard as I'm pretty casual player but of all the defensive changes I make, increasing PRR and Dodge seems to make much more of a difference than armour. Also getting decent DR.

    I'm thinking of having a go at just playing a random toon with nothing in the armour slot at all and see how far I get

  2. #2
    Sovereign Vorpal Halfling of Supreme Good scipiojedi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Amorais View Post
    Hi all,

    I'm wondering has anyone tried just seeing how far they get using no armour at all?

    It occurred to me while playing my 120+ AC Paladin that it just didnt seem to make any difference, I was still getting hit just as much as if I had 60 AC. I had a bard that switched from light to medium armour after going from spellsinger to warchanter. Nearly doubled his AC however I was getting hit just as much as before. It literally seemed to make absolutely no difference.

    I generally solo on normal/hard as I'm pretty casual player but of all the defensive changes I make, increasing PRR and Dodge seems to make much more of a difference than armour. Also getting decent DR.

    I'm thinking of having a go at just playing a random toon with nothing in the armour slot at all and see how far I get
    I don't really gear my characters at all since i play so many alts it would take too much work. So I generally run with sub-par AC, PRR, doge, saves, etc. just by throwing on whatever gear I have lying around and it has taught me how to play better, since I can't rely on the things other people use. Yes I still die a fair bit but I know more of my limitations.

    Now I don't exactly know the breaking point, but there is SOME point where AC and PRR actually matter. There are people that tank in this game and you can boost your defensive stats to a point that it matters, but you pretty much have to max them to do it and give up dps. I've heard that 100PRR is the sweet spot and if getting more after that takes too much away from dps then it isn't worth it, but I can't comment on the validity of that statement.
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  3. #3
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    I run a literally naked (0 armor, in underwear only) thief assassin who dabbles in mechanics. he doesn't get hit any more often than any other character in the stable, including heavy armor paladins or heavy armor fighters SWF with shield.

    Of course, he doesn't have the HP to absorb many blows, but he does not get hit that much anyway.
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  4. #4
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    150ish AC at 30 is enough to see more than 5% miss chance.

    How much I have no idea

    Hey devs, stop being stingy with the to-hit info.

  5. #5
    Community Member CSQ's Avatar
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    AC doesn't work like it does in PnP. Instead of being actual human math, it's some arcane formulae that make no sense to me, but basically, it's something like this (from the wiki:

    To get hit, the formula is Monster's Attack Bonus + 10.5 divided by the player's AC times 2. This means at low level, AC is very effective- since monsters have small attack bonuses at low level, that's not a big problem. Someone with 30+ AC at level one or two fighting normal difficulty mobs is basically only going to get hit on natural 20s, and with past lives that number is very easy to attain (and, in fact, can be low compared to some builds with past lives and guild buffs). However, once you bump that number up, you start dividing ludicrous numbers, since the to hit bonus is typically around 2.5 times the monster's CR. So, at elite around level 7, you would start to need something like 50-60 AC to notice a significant improvement. By the time you get to level 30, and mobs have huge CR, then you need hundreds and hundreds of AC to not get hit reliably. On the other hand, dodge works regardless of enemy skill, which is why around level 10 most AC builds convert to dodge builds unless they really dedicate themselves to insane AC buffs.

    TL;DR, the formula is insane, at level 30 you would need a really high AC to notice a difference and the returns diminish.
    I take back the nasty things I've said about bards. Bards are pretty cool.

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  6. #6
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    I was wondering this awhile ago...

    This thread was useful...

    https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthrea...aper-Clonklock

    I did some math and posted on my guild site (not 100% sure it is correct - looks good though!)




    Why you need some AC!

    So I was running some numbers… (yes was bored in a meeting…).

    Blurry -> 20% miss chance -> 80% of hits make it to your AC roll…

    Blurry + 10% incorp -> .8 x .9 = 72% of attacks make it to your AC roll…

    Blurry + 10% incorp + 15% dodge -> .8 x .9 x .85 -> 61% of attacks make it to your AC roll..

    So on my Capped Acrobat (CNG)…

    Blurry + 25% incrop + 40% dodge -> .8 x .75 x .6 -> 36% of attacks make it to AC roll
    With all of this – 1 in 3 hits will land!

    From older posts…

    https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthrea...-at-what-level

    https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthrea...-the-Underdark

    http://ddowiki.com/page/Defense_Chance_at_Level


    (<monster to-hit> + 10.5) / (<Player's AC> * 2)

    A few numbers… let’s say a monsters to hit is it’s CR rating (not sure of this – but need to start somewhere

    CR 40 vs AC 50, 75, 100, 200

    (50.5/100) = 51% hit
    (50.5/150) = 34% hit
    (50.5/200) = 25% hit
    (50.5/400) = 13% hit

    So adding to hit chance to the above…with a 40 MOB to hit (which is highish?)

    Blurry + AC 50 = .8 *.51 -> 40 % of attacks with hit you
    Blurry + AC 75 = .8 *.34 -> 27 % of attacks with hit you
    Blurry + AC 100 = .8 *.25 -> 20 % of attacks with hit you
    Blurry + AC 200 = .8 *.13 -> 10 % of attacks with hit you

    Blurry + 10% incorp + AC 50 = .8 * .9 *.51 -> 37 % of attacks with hit you
    Blurry + 10% incorp + AC 75 = .8 * .9 *.34 -> 24 % of attacks with hit you
    Blurry + 10% incorp + AC 100 = .8 * .9 *.25 -> 18 % of attacks with hit you
    Blurry + 10% incorp + AC 200 = .8 * .9 *.13 -> 9% of attacks with hit you

    Blurry + 10% incorp + 15% dodge + AC 50 = .8 * .9 * .85 *.51 -> 31 % of attacks with hit you
    Blurry + 10% incorp + 15% dodge + AC 75 = .8 * .9 * .85 *.34 -> 21 % of attacks with hit you
    Blurry + 10% incorp + 15% dodge + AC 100 = .8 * .9 * .85 *.25 -> 15 % of attacks with hit you
    Blurry + 10% incorp + 15% dodge + AC 200 = .8 * .9 * .85 *.13 -> 8% of attacks with hit you

    So on my Capped Acrobat (CNG)…

    Blurry + 25% incorp + 40% dodge + AC 50 = .8 * .75 * .60 *.51 -> 18 % of attacks with hit you
    Blurry + 25% incorp + 40% dodge + AC 75 = .8 * .75 * .60 *.34 -> 12 % of attacks with hit you
    Blurry + 25% incorp + 40% dodge + AC 100 = .8 * .75 * .60 *.25 -> 9 % of attacks with hit you
    Blurry + 25% incorp + 40% dodge + AC 200 = .8 * .75 * .60 *.13 -> 5% of attacks with hit you

    I am currently work on my gear to get my AC from 60ish to around 100.. so about ~50% reduction in hits…
    Sarlona - Guildmaster - Brotherhood of Redemption - ddoborguild.com - 2016 & 2017 Players Council --- Alts: Acetylene, Antimematter, CNG, Dilithium Crystal, EMF, EMPulse, Exothermic, Geothermal, Hexane, Hexyne, Hydropower, JA, Kerosene, LPG, Natural Gas, Nuclearpower, Propane, Solarpannel, Tidalpower, WASOB, Waulter, Windpower, Woodpile

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by Propane View Post
    I was wondering this awhile ago...

    This thread was useful...

    https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthrea...aper-Clonklock

    I did some math and posted on my guild site (not 100% sure it is correct - looks good though!)




    Why you need some AC!

    So I was running some numbers… (yes was bored in a meeting…).

    Blurry -> 20% miss chance -> 80% of hits make it to your AC roll…

    Blurry + 10% incorp -> .8 x .9 = 72% of attacks make it to your AC roll…

    Blurry + 10% incorp + 15% dodge -> .8 x .9 x .85 -> 61% of attacks make it to your AC roll..

    So on my Capped Acrobat (CNG)…

    Blurry + 25% incrop + 40% dodge -> .8 x .75 x .6 -> 36% of attacks make it to AC roll
    With all of this – 1 in 3 hits will land!

    From older posts…

    https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthrea...-at-what-level

    https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthrea...-the-Underdark

    http://ddowiki.com/page/Defense_Chance_at_Level


    (<monster to-hit> + 10.5) / (<Player's AC> * 2)

    A few numbers… let’s say a monsters to hit is it’s CR rating (not sure of this – but need to start somewhere

    CR 40 vs AC 50, 75, 100, 200

    (50.5/100) = 51% hit
    (50.5/150) = 34% hit
    (50.5/200) = 25% hit
    (50.5/400) = 13% hit

    So adding to hit chance to the above…with a 40 MOB to hit (which is highish?)

    Blurry + AC 50 = .8 *.51 -> 40 % of attacks with hit you
    Blurry + AC 75 = .8 *.34 -> 27 % of attacks with hit you
    Blurry + AC 100 = .8 *.25 -> 20 % of attacks with hit you
    Blurry + AC 200 = .8 *.13 -> 10 % of attacks with hit you

    Blurry + 10% incorp + AC 50 = .8 * .9 *.51 -> 37 % of attacks with hit you
    Blurry + 10% incorp + AC 75 = .8 * .9 *.34 -> 24 % of attacks with hit you
    Blurry + 10% incorp + AC 100 = .8 * .9 *.25 -> 18 % of attacks with hit you
    Blurry + 10% incorp + AC 200 = .8 * .9 *.13 -> 9% of attacks with hit you

    Blurry + 10% incorp + 15% dodge + AC 50 = .8 * .9 * .85 *.51 -> 31 % of attacks with hit you
    Blurry + 10% incorp + 15% dodge + AC 75 = .8 * .9 * .85 *.34 -> 21 % of attacks with hit you
    Blurry + 10% incorp + 15% dodge + AC 100 = .8 * .9 * .85 *.25 -> 15 % of attacks with hit you
    Blurry + 10% incorp + 15% dodge + AC 200 = .8 * .9 * .85 *.13 -> 8% of attacks with hit you

    So on my Capped Acrobat (CNG)…

    Blurry + 25% incorp + 40% dodge + AC 50 = .8 * .75 * .60 *.51 -> 18 % of attacks with hit you
    Blurry + 25% incorp + 40% dodge + AC 75 = .8 * .75 * .60 *.34 -> 12 % of attacks with hit you
    Blurry + 25% incorp + 40% dodge + AC 100 = .8 * .75 * .60 *.25 -> 9 % of attacks with hit you
    Blurry + 25% incorp + 40% dodge + AC 200 = .8 * .75 * .60 *.13 -> 5% of attacks with hit you

    I am currently work on my gear to get my AC from 60ish to around 100.. so about ~50% reduction in hits…
    You made a mistake. Mob to hit is 2.5*cr for standard mobs (bosses may have higher). So a standard cr 55 low epics elite/reaper mob will have 180ish to hit. This means if you do not have at least 100 ac at 20 you might as well just ignore AC all together. In legendary content where mobs can be at a cr of 75+ you would need at least 110 AC to see any benefit at all, and really 150+ to be worth talking about. I am unsure if reaper difficulty modifies mob to hit to any degree or not.

  8. #8
    Hero Propane's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by J-mann View Post
    You made a mistake. Mob to hit is 2.5*cr for standard mobs (bosses may have higher). So a standard cr 55 low epics elite/reaper mob will have 180ish to hit.
    Thanks for the correction - do you have a link or forum I can review?
    Sarlona - Guildmaster - Brotherhood of Redemption - ddoborguild.com - 2016 & 2017 Players Council --- Alts: Acetylene, Antimematter, CNG, Dilithium Crystal, EMF, EMPulse, Exothermic, Geothermal, Hexane, Hexyne, Hydropower, JA, Kerosene, LPG, Natural Gas, Nuclearpower, Propane, Solarpannel, Tidalpower, WASOB, Waulter, Windpower, Woodpile

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by Propane View Post
    Thanks for the correction - do you have a link or forum I can review?
    http://ddowiki.com/page/Ac see here for ac info

  10. #10
    Community Member noobodyfool's Avatar
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    The sweet spot on your defensive numbers is 300 be it AC PRR or MRR if you can get it there ,and more AC is always good but hard to get any more than 300 on a toon in all three with out giving up all ofence.

    Super tanks roll in the 400 to 500 range on AC n PRR but if you can get 300 in all 3 you will have 85% of the defensive numbers of a super tank although you will not have the HP.

    Where AC really starts to shine is 375-400 range build a toon with it and test for your self you'll see what I mean.

  11. #11
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    In epics AC is pretty much ignorable unless you have 9 martial pasts. If you don't have the martial pasts you need dedication to see any returns. If you have 9 martial pasts you have enough of a base that small investments will make a difference. We're not talking 50% miss rate, I'm saying with just a protection or natural armor item you will start to see something like 10-20% miss instead of 5%. With so many layers of defenses it can be very difficult to see.

  12. #12
    Community Member glmfw1's Avatar
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    If you are running on EN or EH, changes in AC have a meaningful difference as monsters have similar CRs to you. If you are running on EE, it's less effective but still has an impact. Small differences in AC will have little effect, but you will notice a difference between low-dex/no armour/no armour bonusess and maxed-max dex bonus/armour/natural armour/protection, even if your AC isn't maxed out.
    Running EE under level or venturing into far into ER, unless you have invested almost everything in AC, then it makes little difference (it will still impact PRR and MRR though).
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  13. #13
    Community Member HastyPudding's Avatar
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    The problem with any defensive stat in DDO is that if you're doing high level stuff, you basically have to pour everything into it in order to get anything out of it. AC, PRR, MRR, dodge, evasion/reflexes, etc. There's no more 'good enough' or 'that's enough I need some DPS' builds, anymore. Everything is all defense-or-nothing or you can't take a hit.

    I've been playing since 2009 and I honestly don't see how people get this 300-400+ AC and talk like it's so easy. I'm happy to get around 190ish on my capped monk, and he's a wisdom build. And on top of that they have upwards of 200+ PRR, 100+ MRR, 30% dodge on non-rogue/monk, 100+ saves, etc. These people must have some miracle gear because I can't, for the life of me, figure out how the heck they get these kinds of numbers and still dish out significant damage in high level reaper. Somebody needs to explain to me how you can get those kinds of defensive stats on a DC caster, because it's starting to bum me out.
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