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  1. #1

    Default U40: Unarmed Strike Change

    Hello!


    We're here today to talk about an upcoming change coming soon (likely Update 40). A few years ago, we converted Handwraps from being non-weapon equippable items into actual weapons - A change that allowed a large number of effects and abilities to start working with Handwraps as they do other weapons. In that process, we also brought over most of the existing features meant to help Handwrap DPS be equivalent with that of other weapon types. As part of our continued balance pass on Melees, it has become clear that Handwrap Monks are still an outlier in terms of DPS. When compared to other Melees (and even other Monks), Handwrap Monks still deal substantially more damage than other similar builds with similar gear. This is, in part, due to an increased number of Weapon Dice while wielding Handwraps. In retrospect, the buffs they got in the transition to being "real" weapons made the additional damage dice much less necessary.


    To correct this, we are changing the innate Unarmed Strike feat that Monks get every 4 levels to grant +1 to Attack while using Handwraps instead of 0.5[w]. This reduction (a total of 2.5[w] for pure Monks) brings Unarmed Monks much closer to other High-DPS Melee builds of similar gear. The overall reduction in DPS will depend highly on build and gear; the average we're seeing is about a 10% drop on a capped Pure 20 Monk.


    This change does not affect the other sources of Monk Handwrap Damage Dice, such as:

    • Improved Martial Arts Feat
    • Reinforced Fists item effects
    • Touch of the Void Dragon and To Seek Perfection
    • The Disciple of the Fist Past Life Feat



    These will continue to add +[w] while using Handwraps as they do now. These have their impact on total DPS as well, but they require build decisions and gearing tradeoffs to achieve, which we're comfortable with. Internal playtesting shows that Handwrap Monk DPS continues to be very strong after the changes.


    We like the Monk class a lot (my main is a Monk), and want to keep supporting it through cool new gear and interesting abilities; but to do so, we need it to be in better balance with the rest of the game. We're also aware that there are classes with a lot of room for improvement as well; the recent Barbarian pass was work aimed in correcting classes that are behind where they should be, and we have plans for improving other such classes in the future. Thanks for bearing with us as we continue to work on class balance.
    We don't only build for the builds that exist.
    We don't only build for the builds that are good right now.

    The fact that some changes are necessary is not diminished by the fact that other necessary changes have not happened yet.

  2. #2
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    I am always in favor of nerfing Monks!

  3. #3
    Community Member FoliumSakura's Avatar
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    I think this is just fine.

    Is there anything to bring the uniqueness of the henshin mystic up to par with other melee builds? The melee power hit was huge and didn't get much to compensate.

  4. #4
    Community Member Windaar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steelstar View Post
    We like the Monk class a lot (my main is a Monk), and want to keep supporting it through cool new gear and interesting abilities; but to do so, we need it to be in better balance with the rest of the game.

    I think if you want to continue to "fix" the monk class, you should go back and fix some of those "interesting abilities" before you make new changes. If, as you say, your main is a monk, than you should already be aware that since the introduction of the Age of Rage pack, Ki Shout has not been working as it is supposed to. The ability states that it uses the Concentration skill, and only shares a cooldown with the Intimidate skill. Instead, Ki Shout has been using the Intimidate skill for its checks, making it useless as an enhancement.

    Can you do something about this before you start messing with damage output again?
    Leader of the Sacred Order of the Shaolin Temple on Kyber

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  5. #5

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    Quote Originally Posted by Windaar View Post
    I think if you want to continue to "fix" the monk class, you should go back and fix some of those "interesting abilities" before you make new changes. If, as you say, your main is a monk, than you should already be aware that since the introduction of the Age of Rage pack, Ki Shout has not been working as it is supposed to. The ability states that it uses the Concentration skill, and only shares a cooldown with the Intimidate skill. Instead, Ki Shout has been using the Intimidate skill for its checks, making it useless as an enhancement.

    Can you do something about this before you start messing with damage output again?
    This is a Known Issue, one we hope to fix when time allows. It is Not Small.
    We don't only build for the builds that exist.
    We don't only build for the builds that are good right now.

    The fact that some changes are necessary is not diminished by the fact that other necessary changes have not happened yet.

  6. #6
    Community Member Windaar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FoliumSakura View Post
    Is there anything to bring the uniqueness of the henshin mystic up to par with other melee builds? The melee power hit was huge and didn't get much to compensate.
    Agreed. Henshins deal far less damage than many other melee builds, and unlike the Thief-Acrobat they only get one specialty attack to use with the staff (Quick Strikes, which is a copy from the TA tree). Under level 20, HMs are severely under-powered when compared to other THF builds, and don't really start to compete evenly until around level 22 or 23, when slightly better weapons are available (Thunderforged and Sireth come to mind).
    Leader of the Sacred Order of the Shaolin Temple on Kyber

    Guild Leader Toon - Aerriss (Bard Swashbuckler)
    Alts (that I use frequently) - Hartanna (Shintao Monk), Issill (Zen Bow-Master), Taeri (Completionist in the making), Itarrilde (Henshin Monk)


  7. #7
    Uber Completionist Capricorpus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steelstar View Post
    Hello!


    ....it has become clear that Handwrap Monks are still an outlier in terms of DPS. When compared to other Melees (and even other Monks), Handwrap Monks still deal substantially more damage than other similar builds with similar gear....


    ...This reduction (a total of 2.5[w] for pure Monks) brings Unarmed Monks much closer to other High-DPS Melee builds of similar gear....
    While there are legitimate reasons to suggest that monk is outperforming other melee builds, I'm concerned by your claim that monk can "deal substantially more damage than other similar builds with similar gear". According to both kobold times on Lammania and testing that the people I run with have done in game across many lives, that simply isn't the case. Monks are good because they have top tier survivability (high dodge cap, shadow fade, high enough armor to get missed sometimes even when fully set up for dps) and a lot of cc/utility options (including but not limited to stunning fist, kukan do, quivering palm, tomb of jade, knock on the sky, unbalancing strike).

    Pure monk dps is fine. It isn't, however, even in the top 3 builds when only dps is taken into consideration. It's possible that the fact that many good players play monk due to the reasons listed above has led to a misconception that monk dps is a lot higher than it actually is - those same players would be doing more dps if they were playing a different class, they just prefer to have the other stuff.

    There's a case to be made for monk dps being too high considering the amount of other stuff monk has going for it, but the claim that that monk deals more damage, let alone substantially more damage, than comparably geared melees played by players of similar skill levels is simply inaccurate.
    Last edited by Capricorpus; 09-13-2018 at 02:55 PM.
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  8. #8
    Community Member NXPlasmid's Avatar
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    Default really?

    Quote Originally Posted by Steelstar View Post
    This is a Known Issue, one we hope to fix when time allows. It is Not Small.
    Just like the "known issue" where quarterstaff monks are the OP build? right, because now that you let that secret "cat" out of the bag, the servers are overrun by quarterstaff monks. So OP. Or could it be, it remains that barely anyone runs quarterstaff builds and that while your "dps calculations" may show quarterstaves to be OP in your sterile testing lab, that in real life for people who actually play this game, quarterstaff builds are useful for one thing, flavor, not DPS... Can't you spend time working things that represent a real problem? Like the TR cache, sorting functions for the bank tabs, fixing dungeon alert issues, actually balancing the other classes to swash bard like you said you were going to do... how many years ago..

  9. #9
    Uber Completionist kain741's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Capricorpus View Post
    There's a case to be made for monk dps being too high considering the amount of other stuff monk has going for it, but the claim that that monk deals more damage, let alone substantially more damage, than comparably geared melees played by players of similar skill levels is simply inaccurate.
    This is very true. While it does perform well overall it is not top DPS. I know you are seeking the right balance of other classes in game but we are trending back to where monks were before their pass. As more and more offensive ability gets pulled back then we have to ask what the goal of push towards DPS in their pass was. The obvious answer was to make people want to play it again so then why nerf it when you get the desired result?

    I would suggest instead of looking at your internal testing reach out to some high performing DPS on different servers and see what their numbers suggest for Monk vs Barb vs Ranger vs Kensai vs etc etc etc. We have a tendency when working in a vacuum of coming to the conclusion we want without considering the considerable amount of outside testing that takes place on live servers every day. I know there are some squeaky wheels on the forums whining about monks power but reality shows when you actually look at who is doing what in game. I'm confident that if you look at the quantity of DPS out there you will see lots of monk DPS (maybe why you think it's outperforming) but when you look at quality you will find something very different when considering non-monk DPS.
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  10. #10
    Community Member mraz's Avatar
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    Default

    you guys are waisting time on things that are not important.
    and this is not the first time you doing it. i dont understand how can that be more important and game breaking then fixing stuff like tr cache.
    ive never heared anyone complaining about monks ruin their game expirience or anything like that. on the other hand every single person wants to smash their monitors when it comes to tr cache for example.

  11. #11
    Community Member noobodyfool's Avatar
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    Default The Numbers Don't Lie

    Quote Originally Posted by kain741 View Post
    This is very true. While it does perform well overall it is not top DPS. I know you are seeking the right balance of other classes in game but we are trending back to where monks were before their pass. As more and more offensive ability gets pulled back then we have to ask what the goal of push towards DPS in their pass was. The obvious answer was to make people want to play it again so then why nerf it when you get the desired result?

    I would suggest instead of looking at your internal testing reach out to some high performing DPS on different servers and see what their numbers suggest for Monk vs Barb vs Ranger vs Kensai vs etc etc etc. We have a tendency when working in a vacuum of coming to the conclusion we want without considering the considerable amount of outside testing that takes place on live servers every day. I know there are some squeaky wheels on the forums whining about monks power but reality shows when you actually look at who is doing what in game. I'm confident that if you look at the quantity of DPS out there you will see lots of monk DPS (maybe why you think it's outperforming) but when you look at quality you will find something very different when considering non-monk DPS.
    Your a numbers guy looks like monk is as good as it gets

    Build DPS
    Assassin Blitz 21577
    Melee Monk 20952.38095 monk
    Melee Rogue 20370.37037
    Fury Thrower 19789.91597 Ranged monk
    Melee Monk 19505.49451 monk
    Fury Thrower 17035.71429 Ranged monk
    Melee Rogue 16627.63466
    Melee Wolf 14536
    Old Tempest 14081.63265 theirs a new build out now about 20000.
    Melee Monk 13032.06997 Reaper Optimized Great Defense monk

    After rounds of various build dps testing we failed to break the previous 15 second record with shintao monks. Despite utilizing a superior rotation from his last tests, symb only managed to attain a 20 second kill. 2 seconds slower from his previous attempt with unnerfed prowess. These were conducted on a fully geared and buffed character with all past lives.

    My tests on no life character were also similar and were 2 seconds slower than my previous tests, 34 seconds currently compared to previous 32 for monk. my no life tempest clocked in at 33-32 seconds.
    Vanguard 11143.85204 Not Reaper optimized DEAD LAST Vanguard/Kensai no defense pre nerf numbers

    The fix to prowess was the largest roadblock to breaking 15 seconds on a monk. Though using scourge's divine form could hit 15 seconds.

  12. #12
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    Default Stay true to classic monk from dnd!

    I am disappointed to hear that you plan to nerf the hand wrap monk further -- traditional dnd had the monk supreme of the melee classes in dps -- they received more attacks and more damage per hit that all the others melees. The give away was that they could not wear armor or use many of the cool weapons and tactics available to other fighters.

    In DDO maintaining the different flavors of melees instead of having them all be "balanced" to the same output is what makes characters and classes fun and unique. If all melees have to perform exactly the same then are you going to lift for example the 50 MRR cap on monks so they can achieve similar protection as other melees. Should all have the same achievable PRR, AC, Dodge, etc.?

    Adding +1 to hit is essentially nothing (not even +1 damage too??) but more importantly leads DDO more towards homogeneity and blandness rather than the stellar uniqueness of classes which classic DnD offered.

    I love DDO and one of the reasons has been its incredible character development of classes and builds (far more than other MMOs). You have for the most part refrained from making melee classes "equal" by having the same output or performance, but rather different inequalities among the melee classes (some better at defense, some with healing or spells, some better with offensive abilities, etc.) achieved a "different" balance -- where players had to choose different classes to achieve success in the area they thought most important.

    But over the last year (nerf to monk Duality wraps, nerf to monk melee power in Henshin and Shintao trees) it seems you have decided that monks should not shine as the melee dps kings they were in pen and paper DnD. If all the melees are going to sport the same abilities in essence then we are just choosing a class name we like, not an actual class with differences.

    Differences are more appealing:

    Barbarians: DPS Kings (when raging) and Hit-point kings
    Monks: DPS kings in general and some interesting CC abilities like stun, ki strikes, etc.)
    Fighters: Overall balanced best defense and offense and king of tactics.
    Paladins: Defense Kings and healing abilities

    But if you really plan to make all melees essentially the same in DPS, then you need to be fair and increase defenses to all be the same too. Increase monk Hit-points and MRR, etc.

    I hope you reconsider and instead of calling such classes outliers call them designed differences that make people choose among the melee classes what kind and style of melee they want to be.

    (Edited for spelling and clarity)
    Last edited by Paisheng; 09-13-2018 at 03:04 PM.

  13. #13
    Uber Completionist kain741's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by noobodyfool View Post
    Your a numbers guy looks like monk is as good as it gets

    Build DPS
    Assassin Blitz 21577
    Melee Monk 20952.38095 monk
    Melee Rogue 20370.37037
    Fury Thrower 19789.91597 Ranged monk
    Melee Monk 19505.49451 monk
    Fury Thrower 17035.71429 Ranged monk
    Melee Rogue 16627.63466
    Melee Wolf 14536
    Old Tempest 14081.63265 theirs a new build out now about 20000.
    Melee Monk 13032.06997 Reaper Optimized Great Defense monk

    After rounds of various build dps testing we failed to break the previous 15 second record with shintao monks. Despite utilizing a superior rotation from his last tests, symb only managed to attain a 20 second kill. 2 seconds slower from his previous attempt with unnerfed prowess. These were conducted on a fully geared and buffed character with all past lives.

    My tests on no life character were also similar and were 2 seconds slower than my previous tests, 34 seconds currently compared to previous 32 for monk. my no life tempest clocked in at 33-32 seconds.
    Vanguard 11143.85204 Not Reaper optimized DEAD LAST Vanguard/Kensai no defense pre nerf numbers

    The fix to prowess was the largest roadblock to breaking 15 seconds on a monk. Though using scourge's divine form could hit 15 seconds.
    I don't care about this list you have posted no less than 37 times. Join a high level group if you can get in it and see what the melees who are doing the most DPS are playing.
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    Damn I need to get Monk past lives done STAT.

    j/k lol at that attack animation



    Also I just seriously read that Monks deal the most damage in pnp what is going on

  15. #15
    Community Member ironmaiden-br's Avatar
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    Default Again?

    Honestly i wish you guys spent more of your time develloping new content then messing up with monks.
    Why wont you try scaling UI, better engine to avoid lag, new quests , new classes, new races, more sagas ... Monks are fine the way they are.
    TrooperRJ / Ironhell / Dreamhealer / Charlotee /Abgail / Halibaba /Helloween / Sepulturaa / xSabotagex / Primalfear / AcesHigh / Megadethx / Gammaray / Mercyfull fate / / BlindGardian / / Avantasiax ___________INFERUS SUS - Thelanis

  16. #16
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    It's very interesting to constantly read how different the player experience is relative to what the devs do.

    I'm in the camp that thinks SSG should be doing QoL stuff over nerfing things that don't really need nerfs. I mean I think Monk is too good, but it's not so good that it needs another nerf.

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    Quote Originally Posted by kain741 View Post
    I don't care about this list you have posted no less than 37 times. Join a high level group if you can get in it and see what the melees who are doing the most DPS are playing.
    That's anecdotal, imprecise, and qualitative. You should balance classes by what they CAN do, not what people GET with them,because that's as much due to player skill and groupthink trends than actual mechanics.

  18. #18
    Community Member noobodyfool's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kain741 View Post
    I don't care about this list you have posted no less than 37 times. Join a high level group if you can get in it and see what the melees who are doing the most DPS are playing.
    I have and I do It's Mostly DC casters hold mobs and we all beat on them not much fun.

    If there no DC caters or healers I'm SOL on a Tanky Vanguard over R 3-4 unless there is Monks and Worklocks just crushing everything before I can get there also not much fun.

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    @Steelstar

    Just for the sake of the community, could you give some insight into how the data for decisions such as these are obtained? My imagination is that you probably have some sort of logging server side to record the damage players do that you could perform analysis on. But others might imagine that you get your data from internal play tests, or watching people play on twitch, or from whatever. We just don't know.

  20. #20
    Community Member Selvera's Avatar
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    While I agree that handwrap monks outperform other monks; this is partially a problem with the other monk enhancement trees: Ninja spy doesn't really offer very much and dark-monk finishing moves suck. Henshins are rather lackluster since the melee power nerf. And whirlwind attack only works effectively with handwraps. If whirlwind attack; dark monk finishers and ninja spy/henshin were tweaked a bit; monk vs monk balance would be much better.

    In terms of monk vs other classes; Capricorpus says it; their dps (after the duality nerf which was needed) isn't higher then what other classes can output; but it is certainly still pretty strong, especially considering the defenses and CC they can bring to the table. I'm not against the idea of a 10% endgame-monk dps nerf; but I don't agree that removing unarmed strike is the right way to do it. It's a class feature which makes monks unique as a class and draws from pnp in a fairly faithful way. +1 to hit is laughably useless.
    Selvera: Dwarf Monk 18; Dwarf pastlives are going to take me a long time.
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