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  1. #1
    Community Member HuneyMunster's Avatar
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    Default Bluff DC in Legendary Content is far to High and Broken

    I attempted a bluff check against a CR54 monster in Grim and Barret R1 as a test.

    The formular we was giving is (CR+Quest Level)*1.5

    This makes the DC of 129 which is near impossible to reach on a rogue. My current DC is 101 and had to sacrifice a neck slot to equip Glib Tongue in the test. Even with a +19 Cha and +9 insightful Cha item my DC would be 115. The only benefit it seems is that you still get the threat reduction of 40% even on a fail.




    I have no idea if reaper effects the DC as there is no information on this.

    But a post from Torc listed DC creatures level + (1.5 * quest level) which is 102 I should have successfully bluff the target in an attempt to separate it from the pack. I rolled 20+101 for 121, but still failed.


    Quote Originally Posted by Torc View Post

    1> So I was hoping to get feedback on bluff difficulty. I can easily believe bluff resistant may be a little to aggressive, but we are trying account for itemization and encourage players to many throw a few enhancement points bluffs way. Madness... I know... given this has been free beer for so long. The formula for bluff resistant is the creatures level + (1 * quest level). Hard multiplies this # by 1.25, and elite 1.5. This may seem a bit much but our thinking is currently that "solo pulling" is a pretty powerful ability so we're trying to calibrate how much of a commitment a player needs to give to do it reliably.

    -Torc
    In Legendary Reaper the only targets Ive manged to successfully bluff with feint are reapers.

    Also, red names tend to be CR80+ which makes DC required even higher. I have no problem with this except it makes the feat Improved Feint that is only available to Rogues and Half-Elf Rogue Dilettante ineffective other than treat reduction. At the very minimal the DC should be lower for combat use compared to pulling use.
    Last edited by HuneyMunster; 08-12-2018 at 02:16 PM.

  2. #2
    Community Member PsychoBlonde's Avatar
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    Default

    What is this with thinking that simple class abilities are "powerful"?

    Stealth is not "powerful". Being able to bluff enemies consistently on a character that is DESIGNED to NEED THIS KIND OF THING is not POWERFUL. It's the difference between being functional and being hopeless, not the difference between being good and being OP. SHEESH.

    The skill check should be balanced around "you put points in this" not "you can do this with no points and a swap item", which at level 30 should be around 80-90. Yeah, a cha-based character like a bard might be able to hit that high with no investment, but SO WHAT, that's the whole point in being all-cha-all-the-time.

  3. #3
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    Default

    There was a downward adjustment after the initial hike of scores required to bluff, but they are still high in harder content. Certain monster types also seem to have much higher requirements, namely divine spellcasters.

    So for non charisma build rogues (ie, all rogues) running harder content, the choice apparently is now either sacrifice multiple usually-on gear slots to support this one ability at the expense of effects that are more important, make multiple item swaps every time you use it, or be prepared for failure and its comically severe consequences when pulling monsters.

    There doesn't seem to be much parity with the amount of investment required here compared to other similarly useful or more powerful abilities. A carefully placed noisemaker can often be substituted for pulling a monster from the edge of a group, and other abilities can be used in combat to do what bluff is useful for there.

    The success of these changes apparently consists in getting us to reduce using this skill in favour of other alternatives or skipping it altogether. Still, it makes perfect sense when considered as a part of the company's current hostile approach to stealth play. Don't like it? Don't use it!

    Thanks.
    Astrican on Khyber

  4. #4
    Community Member Shadow_Jumper's Avatar
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    120 bluff works in R10 strahd. Haven't failed any check with above 120 in endgame content. My swaps are Cannith crafted +22 bluff of +11ins bluff gloves, the char helm from age of rage, and a +7 ins cha ring.
    Last edited by Shadow_Jumper; 08-12-2018 at 04:28 PM.
    The Shadow Assassin

  5. #5
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    The interesting thing about this is a modifier of +120 may still be too low to reliably bluff a divine spellcaster in a below cap quest like EE Cabal for One.

    I would like to hear the developer who made these changes explain his theory of how rogues should be built and geared to use bluff both in and out of combat. Including what sacrifices would have to be made to get the apparently powerful bluff skill working reliably at level.

    There seems to be problem with how the developers are evaluating the power of stealth play relative to other styles. But to be fair, we haven't heard their reasoning for their decisions supported by a comparison with other faster and easier methods of completing hard content.

    And according to the current 'four effects only' rule of item design it wouldn't even be possible for them all to fit on one item and give a reliable result when using bluff at cap in harder content. At minimum the bluff gear I use has charisma, quality charisma, insightful charisma, bluff, insightful bluff and quality bluff. My usual gear also has an exceptional bonus to charisma and if I'm nervous about failing I might also put on an exceptional charisma skills item.

    And even with additional buffs and full ranks in the skill itself, it's still possible to fail on certain monster types in quests six levels below cap. So we have a situation where the requirement for using this skill is not really even being met by the gear that is available, leaving us with a choice of the bad options mentioned in my first post.

    Thanks.
    Last edited by blerkington; 08-12-2018 at 05:56 PM.
    Astrican on Khyber

  6. #6
    Master Assassin nokowi's Avatar
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    The failure mechanic of bluff is poorly designed.

    Players should be failing bluff rolls, but they should be dealing with a number of mobs based on their failure. Trying to deal with those mobs without breaking stealth and causing mass agro creates interesting play. If you get removed from stealth by the mobs that do come at you (attacked, actions) everyone mass agro's onto you.

    The current design either works too well, or fails too spectacularly, without a good chance to respond to the consequences of failure.

    Better design allows more failures, and makes bluff a powerful tool, but one which has both benefits and drawbacks across the range of skills cores players will have for various content.

    Better design...
    It's much easier to demonize those providing feedback (whining, childish, bringing the forums down, etc) or minimize their voice (small number, vocal, etc) than to accept the fact that the agro/stealth system just missed the mark.
    A good company learns to listen to their customers.

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shadow_Jumper View Post
    My swaps are Cannith crafted +22 bluff of +11ins bluff gloves, the char helm from age of rage, and a +7 ins cha ring.
    LGS glove may be slightly better: same +22 bluff +11 ins bluff but at ml26 instead ml30 with only 2 augs, and +6 quality bluff with 3 augs. +9 for 2 or +10 for 3 augs UMD bonus nice to have too. 8)

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