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  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Morroiel View Post
    With swaps, I clocked in at 21,367.52 DPS and had a sustainable 107 Assassinate DC on lamm with the updated 75 mp prowess.
    These recent discussions about assassins from long term players have been very interesting. I am curious about your set-up and whether there are any major differences to Shadow_Jumper's that produce the quoted numbers. How much gear swapping is needed to hit both benchmarks?

    If it's not DEX based, Tier 4 vistani with KTA, Sneak of Shadows, Improved Sneak Attack, LD with prowess, and Scion of Ethereal Plane, what are you doing differently? What are the twists you use, and what is the maximum dodge? What non weapon gear are you normally wearing?

    Right now I don't think I have enough information to make informed choices about DPS costs for spending more in acrobat and less in vistani, selecting scion of astral over scion of ethereal, not taking KTA, DEX vs INT, etc. I expect some of you have already done these comparisons and I would like to know both the details of what you were testing and the results.

    Thanks.
    Last edited by blerkington; 07-19-2018 at 11:02 AM.

  2. #22
    Community Member Morroiel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by blerkington View Post
    These recent discussions about assassins from long term players have been very interesting. I am curious about your set-up and whether there are any major differences to Shadow_Jumper's that produce the quoted numbers. How much gear swapping is needed to hit both benchmarks?

    If it's not DEX based, Tier 4 vistani with KTA, Sneak of Shadows, Improved Sneak Attack, LD with prowess, and Scion of Ethereal Plane, what are you doing differently? What are the twists you use, and what is the maximum dodge? What non weapon gear are you normally wearing?

    Right now I don't think I have enough information to make informed choices about DPS costs for spending more in acrobat and less in vistani, selecting scion of astral over scion of ethereal, not taking KTA, DEX vs INT, etc. I expect some of you have already done these comparisons and I would like to know both the details of what you were testing and the results.

    Thanks.
    I was waiting till I got more time to do a more thorough write up because I felt it deserved it, but I won't have much free time till like two weeks from now So here's my shabby explanation (hopefully I'll find time to actually add my assassin build to my build thread later on) - sorry its not more thorough.

    Let me start out by saying my set up is almost entirely the same as Shadow_Jumper's, I just use 2 swaps or 1 swap to boost my dc for most of gameplay much like Shadow does(?) - most of the time this is enough to instakill the caster or other low fort baddie. That 107 DC is for when I really need to instakill a mob and I know a floating 90-93 isn't going to do the job. This requires multiple swaps and isn't something I do in regular gameplay anymore ever since that gear swap delay was introduced. I'll also mention that I am a group oriented player, high fort save mobs almost always have low will saves, meaning ~95% of the time they'll be mass held.

    As for dps, this was calculated from an r10 bruntsmash and reverse calculated to non reaper dps. It is an average of 5 test runs. I'm not a big fan of the kobold dojo tests anymore; I think they are disingenuous to what builds actually do in endgame (dps wise). Not to mention shenanigans with people twisting things they don't normally twist (not knocking on symb but you'll see him use the final tier of aasimar scourge, crusade, etc. in his kobold beatdowns drastically overestimating the dps); additionally, you have rounding errors with translating dps from nonreaper to reaper, where certain procs become worthless. On the other hand, reaper trees provide a lot of melee power that help combat the scaling. Basically I like to test in an environment that most closely approximates the gameplay I expect to do. This is also why during regular gameplay I used to record video and actually empirically get dps numbers from things like LE shroud, etc.

    Anyways, I can at least provide a little insight into what represents the maximum buildwise. I use liberal spreadsheeting when making or maintaining builds - this includes a toggle option for basically each and every possible build choice thats feasible (I'm not going to include things like +3 diplo as an option over a dps option). I then use several programs that integrate with my spreadsheets to evaluate potential builds in a more unbiased, deterministic manner. I'm 99.999% sure of a few things:

    • First, dex based is actually empirically better than int in terms of dps by a significant margin (~2-4% dps) BUT theoretically they are fairly close to one another to the point where I wouldn't say one is better than the other theoretically. Where this disconnect happens, I think I give a bit of stock to what Shadow has said in a different thread that ethereal plane might be scaling a bit more than it should with hide score
    • Second, KTA is pretty much non negotiable. It is roughly a 5-10% dps boost, not to mention the benefit if you take dire charge and dont mind swapping an item to use it.
    • Third, T4 vistani is pretty much mandatory: double daggers and celerity not only makes your dps increase by a substantial amount it provides an increased effective attack rate, which drastically enhances balanced attacks,etc. Additionally, +2 damage per knife training 2-4 is pretty much gold.
    • Fourth, sneak of shadows and scion of ethereal plane are pretty much mandatory if you want to break 16k dps. Scion of Astral loses out heavily due to being overcap for doublestrike with it. You'd be better off sacrificing dps in other areas to make up the lost assassinate dcs.
    • Fifth, gearing at endgame for a rogue is hard. It is near impossible to grab everything you want, but that's not too much of a problem. This actually better loot design than what we had for years imo though still not perfect. You will have to pick and choose OR make liberal use of swaps like I have. My base dps set is nearly exactly what Shadow_Jumper laid out in his build thread.
    • Sixth, shadow dancer isn't as behind as a lot of people would have you believe. It is behind to a degree but the extra survivability via meld, inherent dc boost via stats, extra incorp, and 5% vuln proc make it so you are near equal with an LD in a full raid provided theres 6+ hard hitting physical attackers besides you. This is all while not having to rely on blitz, being able to flirt the line of danger a lot easier. In content where there are no dps test win conditions (shroud pt4, doj, etc.), I would actually recommend this destiny over LD, but I know that's unheard of and hard for people to wrap their head around. This is doubly true in lotto type content where a single hit will kill you regardless of the blitz prr boost.


    I know that's not exactly what you wanted, but hope that helps for now. Like I said hopefully I end up with time to add my assassin build to my build thread here.
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  3. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Morroiel View Post
    I know that's not exactly what you wanted, but hope that helps for now. Like I said hopefully I end up with time to add my assassin build to my build thread here.
    No, that's still very helpful.

    Thanks for making the effort to write it up for us.

    Take care.

  4. #24
    Barbarbarian Sam-u-r-eye's Avatar
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    This is a great thread
    Without new players DDO will go the way of the dodo.
    r10 @ 30 stuff, Sorc Build Guide, Lagwipe Log, Ghallanda

  5. #25
    Barbarbarian Sam-u-r-eye's Avatar
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    Executioner's Strike/Shot
    DC 7 + character level + higher of Dex or Int modifier + Assassination bonuses

    7 base
    30 character level
    38 modifier (86 intelligence)
    9 Assassinate (Silver Tongue)
    4 Insightful Assassinate (Silver Tongue)
    6 Stealthy (Shadowdancer tier 1)
    3 Watch the Center (Falconry tier 2)
    2 Treachery (4 piece sentient set)
    2 Long Shadow (5 piece sentient set)

    So it looks like 101 is sustainable for an inquisitor. That's the equivalent of a 107 necro, which is already good in a lot of content.
    Without new players DDO will go the way of the dodo.
    r10 @ 30 stuff, Sorc Build Guide, Lagwipe Log, Ghallanda

  6. #26

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sam-u-r-eye View Post
    Executioner's Strike/Shot
    DC 7 + character level + higher of Dex or Int modifier + Assassination bonuses

    7 base
    30 character level
    38 modifier (86 intelligence)
    9 Assassinate (Silver Tongue)
    4 Insightful Assassinate (Silver Tongue)
    6 Stealthy (Shadowdancer tier 1)
    3 Watch the Center (Falconry tier 2)
    2 Treachery (4 piece sentient set)
    2 Long Shadow (5 piece sentient set)

    So it looks like 101 is sustainable for an inquisitor. That's the equivalent of a 107 necro, which is already good in a lot of content.
    DC casters now have 140+, 101 is far behind of it.
    “Be extremely subtle, even to the point of formlessness.
    Be extremely mysterious, even to the point of soundlessness.
    Thereby you can be the director of the opponent's fate.”
    - Sun Tzu, The Art of War

  7. #27
    Community Member HuneyMunster's Avatar
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    No reason I can think of that Dread Adversary shouldn't include Assassinate bonuses in the tree.

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