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  1. #41
    Community Member redoubt's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shadow_Jumper View Post
    All the rogue assassin DPS numbers from that thread were this build. However the SD versus LD tests were done with a more defensive gear setup, and the comparable LD DPS for that 13k SD was 17.7k
    LD = Legendary Dreadnaught. (so blitzing)
    SD = Shadow Dancer.

    Am I reading this right that your tests are putting Shadow Dancer above Legendary Dreadnaught in DPS?
    Should a reaper see me? I think Death itself should have to make a spot check when I'm rolling up behind him. -- Krimsonrane

  2. #42
    Community Member Shadow_Jumper's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by redoubt View Post
    LD = Legendary Dreadnaught. (so blitzing)
    SD = Shadow Dancer.

    Am I reading this right that your tests are putting Shadow Dancer above Legendary Dreadnaught in DPS?
    No.
    Comparable dps times (using same gear setup) for Ld v SD loooked like:
    SD: 14k
    LD: 17.7k
    The Shadow Assassin, and all around Miserable Elitist

  3. #43
    Community Member redoubt's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shadow_Jumper View Post
    No.
    Comparable dps times (using same gear setup) for Ld v SD loooked like:
    SD: 14k
    LD: 17.7k
    Thanks!
    Should a reaper see me? I think Death itself should have to make a spot check when I'm rolling up behind him. -- Krimsonrane

  4. #44
    Community Member Tlorrd's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shadow_Jumper View Post
    No.
    Comparable dps times (using same gear setup) for Ld v SD loooked like:
    SD: 14k
    LD: 17.7k
    Quote Originally Posted by redoubt View Post
    Thanks!
    Comparable thematic fun

    SD: 100
    LD: 5


  5. #45
    Community Member Shadow_Jumper's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tlorrd View Post
    Comparable thematic fun

    SD: 100
    LD: 5

    Depends on the player I guess.

    For me, I enjoy playing my character to the maximum efficiency possible. There is literally 0 reason to be in SD right now. The way I play wouldn’t change at all, the only thing that would change is having less survivability and significantly less dps.

    I’m perfectly fine if my character isn’t thematically fun to some players who prefer some of SD’s abilities. I prefer to be simple, but lethal. And most of SD’s abilities are, imo, subpar at best, and downright insultingly bad at worse.

    Examples of insultingly bad:

    Core 6 capstone that gives evasion to rogues
    Faster sneaking clickie when SSG refuses to remove reaper auto-spot

    ./shrug

    I prefer not to be insulted by poor ED and gameplay design
    The Shadow Assassin, and all around Miserable Elitist

  6. #46
    Community Member FuryFlash's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shadow_Jumper View Post
    Depends on the player I guess.

    For me, I enjoy playing my character to the maximum efficiency possible. There is literally 0 reason to be in SD right now. The way I play wouldn’t change at all, the only thing that would change is having less survivability and significantly less dps.

    I’m perfectly fine if my character isn’t thematically fun to some players who prefer some of SD’s abilities. I prefer to be simple, but lethal. And most of SD’s abilities are, imo, subpar at best, and downright insultingly bad at worse.

    Examples of insultingly bad:

    Core 6 capstone that gives evasion to rogues
    Faster sneaking clickie when SSG refuses to remove reaper auto-spot

    ./shrug

    I prefer not to be insulted by poor ED and gameplay design
    Reasons I run SD on my Tempest in everything except raids:
    > High defenses: 25% incorp (15% better than gear), +6 MDB, Meld without using twist
    > Highest passive DPS destiny (beaten by Blitz which isn't maintainable in all scenarios)
    > Utility: DDoor for free, Shadow Walk for free, Stealth speed clicky, improved invis
    > +Dex instead of +Str/Con
    > Long-range dominate/insta-kill (works around corners, doesn't reveal your location, doesn't take you out of stealth, etc)
    > Chance to remove SA immunity

    I use LD in raids when only DPS matters and I know I can maintain Blitz.

  7. #47
    Community Member Shadow_Jumper's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FuryFlash View Post
    Reasons I run SD on my Tempest in everything except raids:
    > High defenses: 25% incorp (15% better than gear), +6 MDB, Meld without using twist Between Thick Skin and 30 PRR in LD, the defense gap is fairly even. FWIW I twist Lithe
    > Highest passive DPS destiny (beaten by Blitz which isn't maintainable in all scenarios)This I'm not actually sure about. Combat Brute, Advancing Blows, and Devastating Critical make this gap much smaller than many think.
    > Utility: DDoor for free, Shadow Walk for free, Stealth speed clicky, improved invisI generally don't need the utility. And since reapers auto-spot, invis/faster sneaking is pretty meh imo
    > +Dex instead of +Str/ConI generally don't spend more than 2-4 points in the stat line, so this is a non-issue imo
    > Long-range dominate/insta-kill (works around corners, doesn't reveal your location, doesn't take you out of stealth, etc)This is one of the more interesting things about SD, but more suits soloing over group play imo
    > Chance to remove SA immunityGiven that assassins can remove SA immunity, this is a great ability for everyone besides rogues.

    I use LD in raids when only DPS matters and I know I can maintain Blitz.
    I see why you use it, but with my playstyle, LD fits better simply for the raw power.
    The Shadow Assassin, and all around Miserable Elitist

  8. #48
    Community Member FuryFlash's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shadow_Jumper View Post
    I see why you use it, but with my playstyle, LD fits better simply for the raw power.
    Since all you really care about is DPS, it makes sense for you to run LD. I am PUGing the majority of the time, so the non-DPS benefits SD offers exceed the loss of DPS for me (In a group, I might be the tank, the healer, the DPS, etc). Really I just disagree with this statement:

    Quote Originally Posted by Shadow_Jumper View Post
    There is literally 0 reason to be in SD right now.
    I also want to mention that stealth is one of the strongest aspects of my character (in high Reaper). The fact that you are pretty much completely disregarding it does not surprise me, given the difference in playstyles and that you always have a good group, but while Reaper auto-detect is a speedbump to stealth play, one can get around it 90% of the time.

  9. #49
    Community Member Shadow_Jumper's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FuryFlash View Post
    Since all you really care about is DPS, it makes sense for you to run LD. I am PUGing the majority of the time, so the non-DPS benefits SD offers exceed the loss of DPS for me (In a group, I might be the tank, the healer, the DPS, etc).
    So breakdown of those three roles:

    Healer: SD v LD isn't going to matter for a healing role.
    Tank: IMO the 25% Thick Skin AB and the 30 PRR is going to be as useful, or almost equally as good defense as a +15% Incorp from Shadow Form and will serve you a lot better in the tank role.
    DPS: And DPS is going to be much higher in LD

    Quote Originally Posted by FuryFlash View Post
    I also want to mention that stealth is one of the strongest aspects of my character (in high Reaper). The fact that you are pretty much completely disregarding it does not surprise me, given the difference in playstyles and that you always have a good group, but while Reaper auto-detect is a speedbump to stealth play, one can get around it 90% of the time.
    ./shrug

    I spend most of the time that I'm not fighting in stealth to take advantage of the numerous benefits of MTF. I don't disregard stealth. Its actually quite the opposite. In my experience I've found that the stealth clickies and boosts in SD such as improved invis and faster sneaking serve very little purpose when a skilled player can use their knowledge of mob/reaper mechanics in stealth. And when compared to the benefits of LD, they just simply can't compete.
    The Shadow Assassin, and all around Miserable Elitist

  10. #50
    Community Member FuryFlash's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shadow_Jumper View Post
    Tank: IMO the 25% Thick Skin AB and the 30 PRR is going to be as useful, or almost equally as good defense as a +15% Incorp from Shadow Form and will serve you a lot better in the tank role.
    I should specify that I'm mostly talking about dodge-tanking. 15% more miss-chance and 15 seconds of 100% dodge scale much better into higher reapers in my experience, since most times a % increase to damage absorption will still result in the same 1/2/3-shot kill that would happen without it. Especially in content like r10 Amber (a quest I do frequently), Meld is infinitely better for clearing trash than taking 25-30% less of 2k+ dmg.

    I spend most of the time that I'm not fighting in stealth to take advantage of the numerous benefits of MTF. I don't disregard stealth. Its actually quite the opposite. In my experience I've found that the stealth clickies and boosts in SD such as improved invis and faster sneaking serve very little purpose when a skilled player can use their knowledge of mob/reaper mechanics in stealth. And when compared to the benefits of LD, they just simply can't compete.
    That's fair. I think how you use stealth is very much playstyle dependant. For me, it's largely about dropping/controlling aggro or bypassing dangerous encounters. An example of using the fast sneaking clicky is making the jump in r10 Amber in stealth (much safer than invis against skull aggro, but too slow without the boost). It's very much a situational thing, like most of SD's utility stuff.

  11. #51
    Community Member Shadow_Jumper's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FuryFlash View Post
    I should specify that I'm mostly talking about dodge-tanking. 15% more miss-chance and 15 seconds of 100% dodge scale much better into higher reapers in my experience, since most times a % increase to damage absorption will still result in the same 1/2/3-shot kill that would happen without it. Especially in content like r10 Amber (a quest I do frequently), Meld is infinitely better for clearing trash than taking 25-30% less of 2k+ dmg.
    I feel where you're coming from. I do the same thing with uncanny dodge. If we do a run and I know that I have a chance to be the tank, I will end up dropping Balanced Attacks for Meld. And I guess that's why SD suffers so much, most of the good stuff in there is twistable.
    The Shadow Assassin, and all around Miserable Elitist

  12. #52
    Community Member FuryFlash's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shadow_Jumper View Post
    I guess that's why SD suffers so much, most of the good stuff in there is twistable.
    And that just highlights a fact that I think both of us fully agree on - so many Destinies are utter trash excluding a few low-tier abilities that can be twisted. Like, Magister (DC/Spell Pen), Draconic (EB/DCs), Primal (Cocoon, Balanced Attacks), SD decent but can still twist Meld and Lithe, Fury has adren knockdown but the main buff (SW) can be twisted, Fatesinger just sucks completely, GMoF basically just sucks but has some good twists for monks, the list goes on. An Epic Destiny pass would be very beneficial to epic/endgame balance, and perhaps more importantly, character customization and build choices.

  13. #53
    Community Member chipotle47's Avatar
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    A lot of good points here from both Shadow Jumper and FuryFlash. I'm going to post my version to add to the discussion. Having run with Shadow Jumper more than enough times, I can say that even in high skull reaper, in a less then desirable party makeup, he has no reason to run in SD the way he plays with his skill and game knowledge. It's a good discussion and assassin is just fun and awesome.

    https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthrea...34#post6141534
    "The definition of success is rebuffing between deaths with great enthusiasm."

    Chippacabre, Chippotle, Chippmunk Funk, Chippinater, Chippin Dale, Chippling - Leader of Upper Caves of Anthia on Ghallanda

  14. #54
    Community Member Assassination's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FuryFlash View Post
    And that just highlights a fact that I think both of us fully agree on - so many Destinies are utter trash excluding a few low-tier abilities that can be twisted. Like, Magister (DC/Spell Pen), Draconic (EB/DCs), Primal (Cocoon, Balanced Attacks), SD decent but can still twist Meld and Lithe, Fury has adren knockdown but the main buff (SW) can be twisted, Fatesinger just sucks completely, GMoF basically just sucks but has some good twists for monks, the list goes on. An Epic Destiny pass would be very beneficial to epic/endgame balance, and perhaps more importantly, character customization and build choices.
    I hope the next move they make to help melee's in this game is to redo the melee epic destinies. I agree many of the abilities in these trees are pure "caca". It's frustrating that the only real viable destiny is LD, and it has some real shortcomings for rogues... Devs: Please address this issue. This could be the tool you use to help balance things out for melee types, plus make the game more interesting.

    Nice build Shadow.

    Couple of items from the upcoming raid look pretty promising... Ring: Assassinate/Insightful assassinate... Mask: +9 insightful Dex, relentless fury....

  15. #55
    Community Member Shadow_Jumper's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Assassination View Post
    I hope the next move they make to help melee's in this game is to redo the melee epic destinies. I agree many of the abilities in these trees are pure "caca". It's frustrating that the only real viable destiny is LD, and it has some real shortcomings for rogues... Devs: Please address this issue. This could be the tool you use to help balance things out for melee types, plus make the game more interesting.
    It’s not just melee EDs. The development steps that the devs have taken recently heavily rewards power gamers and disproportionately negatively affects skill based play. All EDs have been affected by these changes. 3 of the more recent raids reflect this.

    RSO: Have to kill boss 2 times in 2 encounters
    Baba: have to kill boss 3 times in 3 encounters
    Killing Time: Have to kill boss 3 times in 6 encounters

    The devs current idea of adding challenge to raids seems to just have the boss magically respawn more HP. It’s kind of a wonder that CoS is such a good raid that challenges players with cooperation, teamwork, and skill. The devs seem to have little care for it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Assassination View Post
    Couple of items from the upcoming raid look pretty promising... Ring: Assassinate/Insightful assassinate... Mask: +9 insightful Dex, relentless fury....
    Yes. The ring and helm are looking quite nice. I plan on getting both and using them in group questing for a powerful DC set swap. For quests/encounters where I don’t need the DCs I will probably stay with Leg Executioners Helm and Leg Ring of Prowess for the added DPS however.
    The Shadow Assassin, and all around Miserable Elitist

  16. #56
    Community Member Shadow_Jumper's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by chipotle47 View Post
    more than enough times
    More than enough?!?!?!? That’s hurtful.

    Quote Originally Posted by chipotle47 View Post
    It's a good discussion and assassin is just fun and awesome.
    Yea. Assassin is just fun as hell. Any discussion that helps players tweak their build to best suit their runs is a good one imo.
    The Shadow Assassin, and all around Miserable Elitist

  17. #57
    Community Member Vish's Avatar
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    Thinking of doing some racials as assassin
    Kinda using this build as blueprint
    But my question is?
    Is there a vkf build for this now?
    And or falconry?
    Looking for different ap split
    Vishantii (the bird man)
    Kil (heroic and epic completionist)

    Sarlona, Heart of Wisdom

  18. #58
    Community Member skorpeon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vish View Post
    Thinking of doing some racials as assassin
    Kinda using this build as blueprint
    But my question is?
    Is there a vkf build for this now?
    And or falconry?
    Looking for different ap split
    Yeah, this is a great thread, although makes me feel like a newb. Still I loved playing assassin in the past and with the changes (assassinate undead etc) I want to give it another go. I feel this build may not be the best fit for me as I am based in the Eu so pug most of the time on low reaper. Still I will maybe do some Racials and maybe Shadar kai iconic and see how it goes.

    I am still in the research phase to will refer to this thread again.
    G-land
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  19. #59
    Community Member DrawingGuy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vish View Post
    Thinking of doing some racials as assassin
    Kinda using this build as blueprint
    But my question is?
    Is there a vkf build for this now?
    And or falconry?
    Looking for different ap split
    Isn't this a VKF build? It's taking T4 VKF, which is more than a serious enough investment to call it such. Unless you're talking about doing a T5 and/or capstone investment, which is a different direction. VKF T5 has the advantage of stronger burst and more on-demand defenses, but I consider the buff to Assassinate as putting it in the "no contest" area. The ability to assassinate literally anything without a death ward is huge. Plus the rest of T5 Assassin has always been strong. Sure, the VKF capstone may be stronger than Assassin cap, but a 39/41 split closes all of your other options.

    Other options include:

    TA for movement speed and anti-aggro. Deeper TA investment also provides Shadow Dodge, though No Mercy investment is not compatible with VK T4.

    Harper for KtA which boosts DPS and tactics.

    Falconry, which comes with little DPS, but provides Assassinate boost and 5% HP.


    Currently I'm running a 42 Assassin / 23 Vistani / 3 TA / 12 Falconry split. This is a DPS downgrade from what Shadow does, though Shadow makes a few other choices that work in party play, but would hurt him solo.

    - Improved Feint. This ability is one all Rogues should take if they are front-lining or soloing. The ability to aoe-turn mobs is strong for survival, plus the ability to apply your SA damage reliably is important for DPS. This does require you to invest into Bluff, but is easily worth it. You can put Bluff 22 on your Slavers item for end-game. CHA skills instead of DEX skills on the LGS goggles would give up ~6 SA (before MP scaling) to universally buff your Bluff and aggro controls (intim and diplo).

    - Dire Charge. Shadow goes for either DPS or a survival boost, but unless you're always in a party with CC, Dire Charge is vital. Though if you are, which any melee that rolls R10s must have, Dire isn't that important. And Assassin isn't looking to CC anything the caster missed - they'll be assassinating it. Personally, though, I'll be taking it, and shifting my AP from Falconry to Harper and others when I do so.
    Pinc Punch - Unarmed Monk (Uber Completionist) // Porc the Orc - Paladin // Thunderborn - Warlock // Imustbe Emo - PewPew Rogue // Aquamine Artifact - Crafting Artificer (shelved)

  20. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vish View Post
    Thinking of doing some racials as assassin
    Assassin isn't exactly an efficient levelling build, especially if you're used to making quick and easy progress on an AoE damage caster. Without significant build changes you will find that you lack AoE damage, that your self-healing is poor, and that you have no real cc (although some is available from speccing for traps).

    It can be done of course, and there's no harm in trying. But there's a big difference between how effective a well-built assassin is in a very specific role at cap in group play and running 1-20 quickly and easily, particularly if you solo a lot.

    Thanks.
    Astrican on Khyber

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