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  1. #1
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    Default Monsters and Moral

    Hi all,

    It is so silly when you scorch down like a small army of mobs, and 1 still tries to fight you...

    I often enter in an ambush like situation, chaos occurs for a little while and then everything is dead... Not everything, a small little monster escaped the blaze of the aoe spells.
    The lucky monster, witnessed the painful in vein death of its fellow monsters... What should it do? Come and pick the adventurer to go meet its friends? Or simply run away?

    I would introduce morale mechanics for Normal-Elite difficulties. It would make monsters behave much more realistic. Also, sometimes morale could work against the players... Maybe that little monster that survived ran to the next cluster of its friends.

    So who would like more realistic monster behavior?

    If you do want that, here it goes! Time to introduce Morale mechanics!


    ----- A suggestion for mechanics, just to saw that it can easily be implemented as counters ------
    The basic concept is the following:
    All intelligent creatures have a starting Moral score:

    Fanatic: 20
    Champion: 15
    Exceptional: 10
    Average: 8
    Poor: 2


    non intelligent creatures have no moral and are not unaffected by that. Creatures immune to fear are not immune to moral but should start at fanatic. Moral is self preservation rather than fear immunity. Thus intelligent undead might actually lose moral in very bad conditions!

    Things that happen in battle affect the moral either positively or negatively.

    Base morale modifiers:

    Group size modifier: G (measured in the area of sight)
    In bigger group: +1
    In equal size group: +0
    In smaller size group: -1
    Alone: -2 (unless equal size group 1v1)

    Leader morale modifiers: L (only best is considered)
    Group has named creature: +2
    Group has champion: +1
    no leader: +0

    Health modifier: H
    Health equal or above half: 0
    Health less than half: -1
    Health less than 25%: -2

    Battle modifier: B (apply all that are applicable, so 75% is actually a -6)
    Enemy killed Named Creature: -2 (for each named)
    Enemy killed Champion Creature: -1 (for each champion)
    Enemy killed more than 50% of creatures: -2
    Enemy killed more than 75% of creatures: -4
    Monsters killed a member of the party: +1 for each

    Fear spells and other debuff stuff affect morale, and more modifiers could be devised...

    Now, every X seconds the morale score of the creature is recalculated.
    If the total is 0 or less the creature lost its morale!

    Actions to take when morale is lost:
    Try to find a new monster group (and thus increase its morale)
    Run as far away as possibly (if cornered then fight defensively or surrender)
    Surrender (if surrender is accepted creature becomes NPC or disappears; otherwise fights defensively)

    Can a fanatic creature lose its morale? Yes, if group started with several named/champions and lost those ones first!

    I did not include level in the formula because it would allow high level characters to walk through low level dungeons just by being there... That is not the target there.
    Of course a high level character will kill the monsters as flies so a morale would trigger much easier than from a low level character!

    Other note, a monster surrendering while u fight might be annoying. So possibly the surrender should only apply when the monster is alone!

    A monster with poor morale and that it is alone, would not engage a party at all. Probably would run away. Making the party harder to get that extra kills to reach conquest :-P.

    Cheerios
    Last edited by Igognito; 07-13-2018 at 11:22 AM.

  2. #2
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    I think fear immune creatures should still have randomly assigned bravery ranging from exceptional to fanatic. The fear spell just magically induces a natural phenomenon.

    I think Size modifiers for each particular creature is important (unless that's what you were referring to in the group size portion; i took it to mean the number of monsters grouped together). Like, a dragon should look at us and be like "puny adventurers, muahahaha." Obviously most dragons are bosses and so wouldn't have the morale mechanic affect them, but other creatures like giants are a good example.

    For monsters killing adventurers I think that the bonus for monsters should be much larger, maybe like 6-8 (d3 +5). Adventurers kill monsters on a daily basis. If you can take one out then your group is pretty bad***.

    In addition, there should probably be bonuses somewhere depending on the monsters' morale. average (8) is 0 buffs, poor (0-2) is huge debuffs + randomly running away, hiding, quivering in place, etc. Below average (3-7) is debuffs without the retreat portion. Above average (9-10) is slight buffs. and then the stuff higher than that is more and different buffs that are seasoned to taste

  3. #3
    Founder & Super Hero Arkat's Avatar
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    Morale
    The heart of the wise inclines to the right, but the heart of the fool to the left. - Ecclesiastes 10:2 (NIV)

  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arkat View Post
    Morale
    That's the spirit. (And there was much rejoicing.)

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tuxedoman96 View Post
    That's the spirit. (And there was much rejoicing.)
    Lol, I don't find a way to correct the title...

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tuxedoman96 View Post
    I think fear immune creatures should still have randomly assigned bravery ranging from exceptional to fanatic. The fear spell just magically induces a natural phenomenon.

    I think Size modifiers for each particular creature is important (unless that's what you were referring to in the group size portion; i took it to mean the number of monsters grouped together). Like, a dragon should look at us and be like "puny adventurers, muahahaha." Obviously most dragons are bosses and so wouldn't have the morale mechanic affect them, but other creatures like giants are a good example.

    For monsters killing adventurers I think that the bonus for monsters should be much larger, maybe like 6-8 (d3 +5). Adventurers kill monsters on a daily basis. If you can take one out then your group is pretty bad***.

    In addition, there should probably be bonuses somewhere depending on the monsters' morale. average (8) is 0 buffs, poor (0-2) is huge debuffs + randomly running away, hiding, quivering in place, etc. Below average (3-7) is debuffs without the retreat portion. Above average (9-10) is slight buffs. and then the stuff higher than that is more and different buffs that are seasoned to taste
    Creature size difference could play a role on morale, I agree. There u go some extra modifiers :-)
    I wouldn't focus so much on the mechanics on this thread though.
    Just on the concept of monsters having morale and their behavior when the lose it.
    In the end the developers will decide on the mechanics based on their easy of implementing them.
    I only wanted to illustrate that it is easy to compute morale just with some numbers.

  7. #7
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    It would definitely be an interesting mechanic, but checking and recalculating all those values would most likely place a considerable load on the servers (lag). It would also definitely interact with Dungeon Alert in ways that would necessarily improve the game. Say most of a group of mobs is killed, 3 run off in different directions and alert 3 more groups for instant red alert. Sorta realistic maybe, but it would be frustrating for many players and others would use it to cheese things even more than currently. Assigning values individually to each mob would be prohibitively time-consuming, so the only way to implement it would be to automatically assign the values. But then there's no fine control over them, and things would almost certainly start breaking. Say 12 players each summoning a monster turns out to be enough to lower a raid boss's morale enough to make it run on account of being outnumbered, some static encounters would certainly break. And there's no telling how this would affect hirelings or NPCs. Hirelings (and pets) and monsters already interact in weird ways, sometimes you fight someone who turns friendly after you beat them down enough, except they still don't like your hireling and and your hireling doesn't like them either so they keep fighting. It's also possible that hirelings would have to get a morale value as well if monsters got it, so you come upon a group of 8 kobolds which you can cleave down with 2 attacks, and your cleric runs away, alerting even more mobs, causing him to run even further. Or Ana might run away during Caught in the Web, and I don't even want to think about Coyle...

    It's an interesting mechanic which I generally wouldn't mind having, but I don't think it would be possible to add it to the spaghetti code of DDO at this point. It would probably have to have been coded in at the very beginning.

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sunnie View Post
    It would definitely be an interesting mechanic, but checking and recalculating all those values would most likely place a considerable load on the servers (lag). It would also definitely interact with Dungeon Alert in ways that would necessarily improve the game. Say most of a group of mobs is killed, 3 run off in different directions and alert 3 more groups for instant red alert. Sorta realistic maybe, but it would be frustrating for many players and others would use it to cheese things even more than currently. Assigning values individually to each mob would be prohibitively time-consuming, so the only way to implement it would be to automatically assign the values. But then there's no fine control over them, and things would almost certainly start breaking. Say 12 players each summoning a monster turns out to be enough to lower a raid boss's morale enough to make it run on account of being outnumbered, some static encounters would certainly break. And there's no telling how this would affect hirelings or NPCs. Hirelings (and pets) and monsters already interact in weird ways, sometimes you fight someone who turns friendly after you beat them down enough, except they still don't like your hireling and and your hireling doesn't like them either so they keep fighting. It's also possible that hirelings would have to get a morale value as well if monsters got it, so you come upon a group of 8 kobolds which you can cleave down with 2 attacks, and your cleric runs away, alerting even more mobs, causing him to run even further. Or Ana might run away during Caught in the Web, and I don't even want to think about Coyle...

    It's an interesting mechanic which I generally wouldn't mind having, but I don't think it would be possible to add it to the spaghetti code of DDO at this point. It would probably have to have been coded in at the very beginning.
    Well that is for the developers to look and decide.
    Personally, I think that many stuff happen and are computed at a specific time interval. Adding 1 more integer there shouldn't affect performance.
    Yes hireling and pets should have a moral score too... Probably champion. Summons no need one, as their lives are not in danger.
    If the pc group outnumbers a champion the effect on morale I suggested is very small.
    Champions and fanatic morale creatures would only run away if several champions/named creatures are killed.

    Some of the modifiers might be complicated to compute. But the initial mechanic could start with less stuff.
    Also another mechanic which is much less heavy to compute is to handle morale as special powers that trigger.


    Example: When a champion dies a morale aoe power triggers. DC: set by champion. All champion allies save. If fail they loose morale.
    Similar, players could have power that saw prowess... Example: Demoralizing one shots! You one shot killed a monster, aoe around that monster all monsters roll a save or flee.

    etc...

    There is many ways to implement it. The first question is if we want it? I personally do...

  9. #9
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    An interesting idea, but not one I think would suit the game in it's current design state.
    “To the world you may be one person; but to one person you may be the world.” ~ Dr. Suess

    .55823.

  10. #10
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    As Memnir said, it is an interesting idea. I also agree with Memnir that I don't think it fits in the current game. Beyond that, I'd rather the devs work on addressing current issues with mob AI rather than trying to add new systems. For example, I'd like non-intelligent mobs to stop broadcasting to EVERYONE! my location. I'd like for mobs to lose their psychic abilities that allow them to find my exact location even though I've moved across the map, gone into stealth and invisible, and climbed up onto a stack of crates where I'm out of sight. That's just a couple things I'd like addressed before new AI mechanics are considered.

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sunnie View Post
    It would definitely be an interesting mechanic, but checking and recalculating all those values would most likely place a considerable load on the servers (lag). It would also definitely interact with Dungeon Alert in ways that would necessarily improve the game. Say most of a group of mobs is killed, 3 run off in different directions and alert 3 more groups for instant red alert. Sorta realistic maybe, but it would be frustrating for many players and others would use it to cheese things even more than currently. Assigning values individually to each mob would be prohibitively time-consuming, so the only way to implement it would be to automatically assign the values. But then there's no fine control over them, and things would almost certainly start breaking. Say 12 players each summoning a monster turns out to be enough to lower a raid boss's morale enough to make it run on account of being outnumbered, some static encounters would certainly break. And there's no telling how this would affect hirelings or NPCs. Hirelings (and pets) and monsters already interact in weird ways, sometimes you fight someone who turns friendly after you beat them down enough, except they still don't like your hireling and and your hireling doesn't like them either so they keep fighting. It's also possible that hirelings would have to get a morale value as well if monsters got it, so you come upon a group of 8 kobolds which you can cleave down with 2 attacks, and your cleric runs away, alerting even more mobs, causing him to run even further. Or Ana might run away during Caught in the Web, and I don't even want to think about Coyle...

    It's an interesting mechanic which I generally wouldn't mind having, but I don't think it would be possible to add it to the spaghetti code of DDO at this point. It would probably have to have been coded in at the very beginning.
    Bosses would not be affected by morale. They are there to kill you, at least as the game is designed now. It would take heavy restructuring to change that. I agree on the DA problem, but I think that should be changed anyways to be more realistic. I don't think the players and their allies should have morale. It'd put too much strain for the calculation, especially when we could potentially (I know not everyone does) summon creatures every 10 mins or less. Additionally, we are somewhat in control of our characters while the NPCs aren't. If I saw my teammates up and die left and right, you can bet your *** I'd grab their stones and leave. The morale should be more for trash mobs.
    Last edited by Tuxedoman96; 07-13-2018 at 03:37 PM.

  12. #12
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    while it would be nice if fleeing monsters would despawn if they haven't run into any other monsters after a set time (cause who likes chasing down a monster that can invis/burrow/gaseous form/or phase) and would count as a kill for quest progression purposes. personally im tired of seeing black puddings/slimes hanging out with non-caster monsters who could be argued that casted ooze puppet spell, and not only are they ignoring the other monsters who they should be trying to eat, they are only trying to go after you when aggroed. low level mindless undead should also fall in this category unless there are actual casters in control of them. oh and enough with making 90% of monsters ranged or casters. casters amongst players and monsters is suppose to be a fairly uncommon thing. how many shamans does a kobold tribe of 100 need? heck for that matter how many chieftains? its a little ridiculous when each group you run into has 1-2 chieftains, 2-4 shamans, 1-3 warrior kobolds, and like 1-2 regular kobolds.

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by tafla421 View Post
    while it would be nice if fleeing monsters would despawn if they haven't run into any other monsters after a set time (cause who likes chasing down a monster that can invis/burrow/gaseous form/or phase) and would count as a kill for quest progression purposes. personally im tired of seeing black puddings/slimes hanging out with non-caster monsters who could be argued that casted ooze puppet spell, and not only are they ignoring the other monsters who they should be trying to eat, they are only trying to go after you when aggroed. low level mindless undead should also fall in this category unless there are actual casters in control of them. oh and enough with making 90% of monsters ranged or casters. casters amongst players and monsters is suppose to be a fairly uncommon thing. how many shamans does a kobold tribe of 100 need? heck for that matter how many chieftains? its a little ridiculous when each group you run into has 1-2 chieftains, 2-4 shamans, 1-3 warrior kobolds, and like 1-2 regular kobolds.
    To be fair, Eberron and FR (and RL i guess) are supposed to be more magical in nature than, say, Greyhawk. I don't mind the harping on a particular toon in a group. What I think would be nice is if they had it to where wearing certain armor types, rather than class would make you a more appealing target. You go after the guy in robes but it turns out it's not a caster, but actually a kick*** adventurer with martial prowess. And then looking at actions taken during battle. Even if there's a guy with a tower shield and platemail in the group, if he's the only one casting spells then I'd normally want him dead first.

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