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  1. #1
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    Default Nearing Epics... Some basic questions about Epic levels

    Hi all,

    I'm soon going to be lvl 20. From lvl 10 and until know I was capping each level. I'm wondering if that is the best strategy at epic levels or not?
    Clearly I will get an Epic destiny (I have them available). If I understood well epic destinies gain xp in parallel with your normal character level.

    Thus it might be a good idea to reach lvl 20 sharp and not capped?

    Any advice on the matter?

    Also some other questions: I keep leveling up after lvl 20, do I still gain APs? I need to go to both trainers? or only the Epic one?

    Cheers

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    Quote Originally Posted by Igognito View Post
    Hi all,

    I'm soon going to be lvl 20. From lvl 10 and until know I was capping each level. I'm wondering if that is the best strategy at epic levels or not?
    Clearly I will get an Epic destiny (I have them available). If I understood well epic destinies gain xp in parallel with your normal character level.

    Thus it might be a good idea to reach lvl 20 sharp and not capped?

    Any advice on the matter?

    Also some other questions: I keep leveling up after lvl 20, do I still gain APs? I need to go to both trainers? or only the Epic one?

    Cheers
    1. Once you reach the XP needed to get to level 20, you can't EARN anymore XP until you take level 20. Your XP bar at the bottom will say "Maximum Heroic XP achieve" (or something like that). So if you don't take level 20 when that happens you will be wasting XP. so make sure you take level 20 right away.

    2. You will not get anymore APs. That max you can get is 80 AP (outside of the Racial Past Life feats which can get you extra AP for Racial enhancements, but that has nothing to do with Epic levels)

    3. You only go to Epic trainer after you hit level 20 (go to heroic one to take level 20. Go to epic trainer to level to 21 through 30.

    4. After you take Level 20, go to the Epic Trainer and choose a Destiny. For a character with no previous Epic Destinies you will be limited to what Destiny you can initially choose.
    This can be confusing to players new to Epic lives as to why they can't choose whatever destiny they want. Your choices are based on your heroic class levels. If you are a pure class (all 20 levels in the same class), then you will be very limited. If you are multi-class then you may have more options at this point. You need 6 levels of a heroic class to get new choices, e.g. if you were a 6 Cleric, 6 Wizard, 8 Fighter, you'd have more options.

    Please check out the Wiki. http://ddowiki.com/page/Epic_Destinies Epic destinies and how you "move" to new destinies can be a little complex for new players to the game.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kylstrem View Post
    1. Once you reach the XP needed to get to level 20, you can't EARN anymore XP until you take level 20. Your XP bar at the bottom will say "Maximum Heroic XP achieve" (or something like that). So if you don't take level 20 when that happens you will be wasting XP. so make sure you take level 20 right away.

    2. You will not get anymore APs. That max you can get is 80 AP (outside of the Racial Past Life feats which can get you extra AP for Racial enhancements, but that has nothing to do with Epic levels)

    3. You only go to Epic trainer after you hit level 20 (go to heroic one to take level 20. Go to epic trainer to level to 21 through 30.

    4. After you take Level 20, go to the Epic Trainer and choose a Destiny. For a character with no previous Epic Destinies you will be limited to what Destiny you can initially choose.
    This can be confusing to players new to Epic lives as to why they can't choose whatever destiny they want. Your choices are based on your heroic class levels. If you are a pure class (all 20 levels in the same class), then you will be very limited. If you are multi-class then you may have more options at this point. You need 6 levels of a heroic class to get new choices, e.g. if you were a 6 Cleric, 6 Wizard, 8 Fighter, you'd have more options.

    Please check out the Wiki. http://ddowiki.com/page/Epic_Destinies Epic destinies and how you "move" to new destinies can be a little complex for new players to the game.
    Ty,

    I'm getting Magister most probably. I'm a wizard 18, rogue 2. I could also get the Dragonic one, dont know which is better TBH. Can I only reach one of the 2 to tier 6 powers? Or given enough time I can cap both?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Igognito View Post
    Ty,

    I'm getting Magister most probably. I'm a wizard 18, rogue 2. I could also get the Dragonic one, dont know which is better TBH. Can I only reach one of the 2 to tier 6 powers? Or given enough time I can cap both?
    You get a total of 24 points to spend in each destiny once you've leveled it up. Each destiny gets its own set of points to spend, but you can only have one destiny "active" at a time. They work like enhancement trees in that you have to put points in earlier tiers before you can move up to the next tier, but there's a fair bit of latitude in how you can accomplish this.. (You don't have to spend points to get the core abilities, though, in epic destinies those are automatic.) In theory you can spend 4 of your points in the top tier, but those are not ALWAYS the best abilities in the tree.

    You unlock Twists of Fate by leveling up destinies (mostly), so it's a good idea to cap ALL of the destinies regardless of which ones you plan to use. The twists add a lot of power and versatility by letting you still use select abilities from other destinies. Don't waste xp on your first life by staying in a capped destiny--the moment you cap one, switch to another one. It takes 8.2M xp to get to level 30, which is enough XP to get almost four destinies leveled to cap.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Igognito View Post
    Ty,

    I'm getting Magister most probably. I'm a wizard 18, rogue 2. I could also get the Dragonic one, dont know which is better TBH. Can I only reach one of the 2 to tier 6 powers? Or given enough time I can cap both?
    I would start with Magister if you are a Wizard.

    Here's how it works AFTER you select your initial destiny and you decide at some point "Oh, this destiny sucks for me and i want to switch to a new one".

    There are 4 Epic Destiny Spheres (Arcane, Martial, Primal, Divine).
    Since you are a wizard you will be limited to Magister or Draconic as your initial choice.

    So, if you start in Magister, that will be your Active destiny and really the only Destiny you can use until you reach a certain number "levels" in Magister.

    If you look at this Map of the destinies. http://ddowiki.com/page/File:ED_Map_U21.JPG
    The Arcane Sphere is in the bottom middle.

    Magister is the "spellbook" one in the lower right of the Arcane sphere.

    Once you choose Magister, you are stuck in Magister until you get to Epic Destiny Level 3 (720,000 XP in Magister).
    If you look at that map again you will notice that Magister is connected to Fatesinger (the top with the harp symbol in the arcane) and Draconic (the left-bottom in the arcane sphere) by an arc'ed line with 3 black dots between them.

    Those 3 dots represent how many levels you to get in Magister before you can "unlock" the ability to change to an adjacent destiny.
    So, once you reach 720,000 XP in Magister, you would be able to go to the Epic Trainer and change to either Draconic or Fatesinger and then start earning XP in that new destiny.

    Or you could stay in Magister until you capped it and got all 24 points to spend in Magister. maybe Magister is all you ever want to be. Or after you get it capped (which takes about 2,000,000 XP), you may decide to try out the Draconic or Fatesinger to see how that works. You can do that then.


    However if you look at the connectors between the different spheres, there are lines with 4 black dots between them. So leading up from Fatesinger to Shadowdancer in the Martial sphere, you will have to get ED level 4 in Fatesinger before you could move to the Martial Sphere (and you can only access the Martial sphere from Fatesinger and you can only go from Fatesinger to Shadowdancer since that is the only connection between those spheres.

    If you look at the Shiradi destiny and said "Wow, that would work really well with Magic Missiles", you would need to traverse from Magister (at least 3 ED levels) to Fatesinger (at least 4 ED Levels) to Legendary Dreadnought (3 ED Levels in Fatesinger), then to Shiradi (you'd have to get 4 ED levels in Legendary Dreadnought first).

    since you need 8,250,000 XP to cap at character level 30, you can easily cap 4 Epic Destinies each Epic Life.
    Note that if start at Magister at level 20 and you stay in magister until you cap at level 30, all you can gain in Magister is the 1.9 millionish XP to cap Magister.

    (I can digress into you will still get 6 million XP in the Arcane sphere which you would need to get an Epic Past Life in Arcane if you Epic Reincarnate, but I'm throwing at a lot at you now.)


    BTW, if you TR or Epic TR, you retain all your Epic Destiny XP in all the spheres... that never resets (the 6 million XP in each sphere for Epic Past lives does reset).
    so, if you hit level 30 and maxed out 4 destinies, then TR'ed, then when you get back to level 20, you will still have those 4 Destinies maxed out and immediately available for use (all tier Core through level 6 abilities can be used at level 20).

  6. #6

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    I'm soon going to be lvl 20. From lvl 10 and until know I was capping each level. I'm wondering if that is the best strategy at epic levels or not?
    Clearly I will get an Epic destiny (I have them available). If I understood well epic destinies gain xp in parallel with your normal character level.

    Thus it might be a good idea to reach lvl 20 sharp and not capped?
    There is no reason not to take an epic level the instant you qualify for it. Epic levels give a lot of bonuses, and the restrictions and cutoffs for being in dungeons for things like the Bravery Bonus are very relaxed compared to heroic levels.

    You are only hurting yourself by not taking all epic levels immediately.
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  7. #7
    Community Member PsychoBlonde's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kylstrem View Post
    I would start with Magister if you are a Wizard.
    This is going to sound weird, but I'd actually suggest starting with Fatesinger instead, because that unlocks the most options for your next destiny.

    I've seen too many people start on the edge of an outside sphere, cap that destiny, then realize that they need to get access to an ability that's in a galaxy far, far away and they have FIVE destinies to level before they can get there.

    Level the ones that connect to the middle sphere FIRST.

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    Quote Originally Posted by PsychoBlonde View Post
    This is going to sound weird, but I'd actually suggest starting with Fatesinger instead, because that unlocks the most options for your next destiny.

    I've seen too many people start on the edge of an outside sphere, cap that destiny, then realize that they need to get access to an ability that's in a galaxy far, far away and they have FIVE destinies to level before they can get there.

    Level the ones that connect to the middle sphere FIRST.
    I will second this ^ (for different reasons)

    You don't necessarily need to cap it (Take it to level 4 Fatesinger is what I recomend) which will unlock the Martial Sphere (which you will want to do anyways). Now that you have the Martial Sphere unlocked, switch Destinies to Draconic (also in Arcane). You will want to max that one out. Finally, Max out Magistar (this should place you at level 25/26, if memory serves correctly). Now from 26 to 30 you will want to go back and eventually cap Fatesinger but there is no rush. Start unlocking Martial (3 to 4 levels in each destiny; you will understand once you get to this point if you need 3 or 4 levels, probably not now) and moving around the ED tree's.

    By time your are 30, you should have all of your Arcane Sphere capped (6 million xp) and decent freedom in Martial Sphere for when you ER. If you are VIP you can switch ED's without visiting an Epic Trainer (as long as you have multiple Destinies unlocked).

    This progression allows you to take the weakest ED (Fatesinger) and level it first when content is the weakest. As content gets harder, you will be in Draconic and Magistar. By time you are 26, you will haved ED Feats that will power your build through lower level Epics to gain XP in "off" destinies like Fatesinger and Shadowdancer.

    "Dailies" can become monotonous but they are a blessing when leveling destinies. You don't have to do them but it makes life easier.
    Quote Originally Posted by hp1055cm View Post
    They have been tweaking the game since I started and often I disagree with them. They focus on wrong stuff, over or under compensate and abandon too much stuff. Every once in awhile they get something right, if only temporarily.

  9. #9
    Community Member Niminae's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Matuse View Post
    There is no reason not to take an epic level the instant you qualify for it. Epic levels give a lot of bonuses, and the restrictions and cutoffs for being in dungeons for things like the Bravery Bonus are very relaxed compared to heroic levels.
    To be clear, the restrictions and cutoffs for Bravery Bonus are exactly the same as they are in heroics.

    What is different is the XP penalties for running a quest over-level or with an over-level member in the group, which is a limitation that goes away in epics.

    Note the connections between the spheres. It takes 3 levels to move within a sphere and 4 levels to move to a new sphere. I typically move as soon as I am able, in order to open up more options. But if you're planning to stay in epics for a while, do a couple ERs perhaps, you'll want to fill a sphere entirely since that is a requirement. If you'll be TRing once you reach cap this is not as important. If you plan to raid at all you should be prepared to swap to your primary destiny in order to be as strong a contributor as you can be.

    And even if you're planning to TR almost immediately upon reaching 20th, there's still a couple thing you might want to knock out before you do. Picking up a a Key to the City doesn't take a huge amount of effort, and running a few sets of Dreaming Dark for a Pale Lavender Ioun Stone is a great way to assist yourself in any future heroic lives.

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    Ty everyone...

    It is a bit of an overwhelming information to be honest.

    My plan is to do a TR (maybe racial haven't decided which one yet, but there is time for that).
    I think getting fatespinner to unlock more options might be wise as I might not be a wizard next life.

    If understand well I will always have 1 epic destiny active even if I have several capped.
    Thus I can get the needed to fatespinner and then grow the others which I prefer, and not use fatespinner.

    Cheers

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    Quote Originally Posted by Niminae View Post
    To be clear, the restrictions and cutoffs for Bravery Bonus are exactly the same as they are in heroics.
    Actually, this is not quite correct.

    The range at which you can get Bravery Bonuses depends on the base level of the quest. For quest level 1-19 you can get a Bravery Bonus while you're 2 levels over the base level of the quest. Level 20 quests are weird in that you can be 3 levels higher than the base level of the quest and still qualify for the BB, you can get a BB in Dreaming Dark (a heroic quest) at level 23 as well as in Epic Phiarlan Carnival. For quests with a base level of 21 and up you can be 4 levels higher and still get a bravery bonus.

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    Quote Originally Posted by PsychoBlonde View Post
    This is going to sound weird, but I'd actually suggest starting with Fatesinger instead, because that unlocks the most options for your next destiny.

    I've seen too many people start on the edge of an outside sphere, cap that destiny, then realize that they need to get access to an ability that's in a galaxy far, far away and they have FIVE destinies to level before they can get there.

    Level the ones that connect to the middle sphere FIRST.
    I didn't read the table close enough on the page... didn't see that Fatesinger was an option. But I figured with a first life toon (to epics) he'd want to try to get as powerful as possible as a Wizard before before moving on to other destinies. But if he doesn't care about that, and wants to be able to move around the Spheres fastest, that is good advice.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Niminae View Post
    To be clear, the restrictions and cutoffs for Bravery Bonus are exactly the same as they are in heroics.

    What is different is the XP penalties for running a quest over-level or with an over-level member in the group, which is a limitation that goes away in epics.
    This is totally false, Bravery Bonus is 2 over base level in Heroics, 3 over base level in 20 content, and 4 over base level in epic (21+) content. Spreading misinformation like this makes it much harder for new players to find groups as they think they need to stay within 2 levels like heroics and set their lfms accordingly.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kylstrem View Post
    I didn't read the table close enough on the page... didn't see that Fatesinger was an option. But I figured with a first life toon (to epics) he'd want to try to get as powerful as possible as a Wizard before before moving on to other destinies. But if he doesn't care about that, and wants to be able to move around the Spheres fastest, that is good advice.
    On my first trip through epics I thought this way too. I wanted to get as powerful ASAP. What I have learned was that it is better to take the weakest Destiny first. The weakest Epic quests are in the 20 to 24 range (House P, K, D, Sands, and Red Fens followed very closely by Druids and High Road). So taking the weakest Destiny (on your first "go around" allows you to level it somewhat (and also unlocking adjacent spheres). By 24 you have already taken your first 2 ED feats. By time your 27/28 you Feats will more than power your way while in an "off destiny" and you will be working in a powerful destiny with semi-useful feats in "difficult" (i.e. this is relative) content. Now if you go in reverse, you will have a weak destiny and semi-useful feats in "difficult" content at 27.

    Using me as an example:
    I took Primal as my first destiny (I was a TWF Ranger) and the forums were raving about cocoon. I maxed this out (because I didn't know better). I then switched to Fury and capped this one. I then went to Shiradi (I was 26 I think) and two levels from cap. Those were the hardest two levels and basically needed to be carried through because my best destiny (at the time) was Fury. Shiradi was just not acceptable for that level of content but I stayed in it because I needed it capped at lvl 6.

    If I had to do it over today (this is the key qualifier because the cap is now 30, not 28), I would have done Shirardi first (to level 4), maxed out Primal, maxed Fury, then finished with Shiradi while running dailies. I would also use Dailies and DA to level things in the Martial Sphere until I was 30.
    Quote Originally Posted by hp1055cm View Post
    They have been tweaking the game since I started and often I disagree with them. They focus on wrong stuff, over or under compensate and abandon too much stuff. Every once in awhile they get something right, if only temporarily.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Matuse View Post
    There is no reason not to take an epic level the instant you qualify for it.
    Yes, there is, and it's the exact same reason as in Heroic: to run something at your current level that will give you bigger rewards than if level up first and then run it over-level.

    Quote Originally Posted by Matuse View Post
    You are only hurting yourself by not taking all epic levels immediately.
    Nope. You're potentially hurting yourself by missing out on all those sweet level-appropriate first-time bonuses.

    Quote Originally Posted by Matuse View Post
    Epic levels give a lot of bonuses...
    Actually, there's a reason we've been calling them "Commoner" levels since they were introduced. Most of your power in Epic comes from your Epic Destiny, and most Epic levels give very, very little.

    E.g., you get a feat at 21, and at 24. But 22 or 23? Useless speed-bumps along the way.

    Now, OP, not to say you have to bank levels. But it's potentially useful in some cases, but, sure, you can just skip it, and level right away, too. I just wanted to counteract the false claim that it's always bad.
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    One of the main benefits of taking epic levels is getting to wear better gear (if you have it).

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    Quote Originally Posted by SirValentine View Post
    Yes, there is, and it's the exact same reason as in Heroic: to run something at your current level that will give you bigger rewards than if level up first and then run it over-level.


    Nope. You're potentially hurting yourself by missing out on all those sweet level-appropriate first-time bonuses.
    There is no over level penalty in epics. The bravery bonus level range in epics is also expanded. It is 2 levels in heroics, but for base level 20 quests it is 3 levels, and for base level 21+ quests it is 4 levels. Further, the first run bonus for a quest is not affected by level. Take a level 30 character into a base level 21 quest on epic casual and you'll still get the +25% exp for first time casual completion.


    Actually, there's a reason we've been calling them "Commoner" levels since they were introduced. Most of your power in Epic comes from your Epic Destiny, and most Epic levels give very, very little.

    E.g., you get a feat at 21, and at 24. But 22 or 23? Useless speed-bumps along the way.

    Now, OP, not to say you have to bank levels. But it's potentially useful in some cases, but, sure, you can just skip it, and level right away, too. I just wanted to counteract the false claim that it's always bad.
    You are literally the first person I have ever seen calling epic levels commoner levels.

    OP, while it is possible to miss out on bravery bonus by being 5 or more levels over the quest's base level in epic you must consider:
    1. If you already ran the quest on heroic then you won't get bravery for running it on epic;
    2. Due to the expanded bravery range the only quests that become an issue are the base epic level 20 House P Phiarlan Carnival chain and House D Sentinels of Stormreach chain, which all must be completed by level 23 for bravery. But that only applies if you did not run them in heroic levels;
    3. All other epic quests are base level 21 or higher meaning that you have until the base level +4 to compete the quest and still receive bravery. That means Impossible Demands, base level 21, can be completed at level 25 and still receive bravery.

    For those reasons there is very rarely ever a reason to bank a level in epic.
    Last edited by Rauven; 07-16-2018 at 04:19 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rauven View Post
    There is no over level penalty in epics.
    And yet there are multiple ways you can get lower rewards for being higher than a certain level, whether or not they are technically called "over-level penalty". That's hair-splitting, not useful.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rauven View Post
    ...there is very rarely ever a reason to bank a level in epic.
    Lots of people might not need to or want to, but it's still valid and useful for some people in some circumstances. I'm not making some strong claim about how everyone should all the time; like I said, I'm just countering the false claim that there's "no reason" and you're "hurting yourself" by banking, when there is, in fact, reasons, and it can help you.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rauven View Post
    You are literally the first person I have ever seen calling epic levels commoner levels.
    Interesting. It's been around a long time, and I sure didn't make it up.
    EDIT: A search showed multiple people using in here in the forums already using it back in June/July 2012.
    Last edited by SirValentine; 07-17-2018 at 07:49 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Vargouille View Post
    As a general rule we don't intend for a single spawn area to cause any dungeon alert, and certainly not red dungeon alert. This basically isn't ever a goal in our designs

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    Quote Originally Posted by SirValentine View Post
    And yet there are multiple ways you can get lower rewards for being higher than a certain level, whether or not they are technically called "over-level penalty". That's hair-splitting, not useful.
    And yet you haven't given a single one.


    Lots of people might not need to or want to, but it's still valid and useful for some people in some circumstances. I'm not making some strong claim about how everyone should all the time; like I said, I'm just countering the false claim that there's "no reason" and you're "hurting yourself" by banking, when there is, in fact, reasons, and it can help you.
    The potential for lower loot and reaper. That's about it. Lower loot is a rare reason to bank a level in epic. And if you play reaper then you know those rules and know that you have to stay within certain level ranges. But then, farming reaper at cap is the plan du jour.


    Interesting. It's been around a long time, and I sure didn't make it up.
    EDIT: A search showed multiple people using in here in the forums already using it back in June/July 2012.
    Yep, did that search too and read some of those posts. At the outset most of those people were complaining about not being able to stay pure for the capstone and still get splashes in other classes. Talk about power creep.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rauven View Post
    And yet you haven't given a single one.
    Do I need to? Some of them have already been mentioned in the thread, including by you. But I can repeat some, if you insist. Lower normal XP. Lower Reaper XP.

    I'm not sure why anyone would want to tell people they should never bank levels, and especially why someone would falsely claim it's not useful. It is clearly useful to some people in some situations. If it's not useful to you, or the OP, that's fine. I certainly don't insist that people always bank levels as long as possible, or even at all. But they should know the option is there.

    As long as the OP or any other readers understand what the game mechanics are, then they can make the choice for themselves. Telling them they are harming themselves by doing something that could gain them benefits is pretty dishonest, IMO.
    Quote Originally Posted by Vargouille View Post
    As a general rule we don't intend for a single spawn area to cause any dungeon alert, and certainly not red dungeon alert. This basically isn't ever a goal in our designs

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