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  1. #1
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    Default Max Melee DPS Pure Bard?

    Seeing the DPS threads made me think about what the best possible build would be for melee dps on 20 levels of Bard. I know other classes and multiclass builds would be better, but just for some chuckles, I'm wondering what build would be the extreme melee dps for pure bard.

    My initial thoughts would be dual dagger warchanter/vistani. Not sure which T5 would be better.

    Or possibly a handaxe swashbuckler with T5 in warchanter and Headman's Chop?


    Anyone else tried to go max melee dps on a pure bard?





    Edit: I'm going to keep a running list of all the builds that I will eventually try out in this first post. I'll do DPS tests on each build at level 30 and also update this post with results. Any builds that end up dipping into Harper will be noted below. I'm not taking the time to plan out every single AP at this point though, so I don't know which ones will have any Harper yet. I should be able to test all the builds in only 2 lives by swapping around AP.

    Life 1
    Warchanter/Vistani dual daggers
    Vistani/Warchanter dual daggers

    Life 2
    Vistani/Swashbuckler dagger/hand axe/light pick
    Warchanter/Swashbuckler hand axe/light pick
    Swashbuckler/Vistani celestia
    Swashbuckler/Warchanter celestia



    Edit 2: Max melee DPS would be either swashbuckling Scourge with a light mace and van richten's cane, or TWF vistani with Pain and an offhand LGS Dust dagger.
    Last edited by Fivetigers33; 05-07-2019 at 08:16 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fivetigers33 View Post
    My initial thoughts would be dual dagger warchanter/vistani. Not sure which T5 would be better.
    Of the 3 realistic T5 choices (Warchanter, Swashbuckler, Vistani), Warchanter has the lowest dps. Exploit Weaknesses is a bit more powerful than Chant of Power and Howl of the North combined - and you've also got Thread the Needle on top of that. For Vistani, Vendetta is about 75% of the point of Exploit Weaknesses and VKT V + Blessed Blades are +13 vs. +5 for Thread the Needle. The VKF capstone is also a lot more dps than any Bard capstone.

    Swashbuckling SWF is also better than any reasonable TWF build. You have to remember that Doublestrike normally only applies to the main hand - and you're likely to be running near-cap Doublestrike once you've geared up. Combined with the haste from SWF, you'll be getting about the same number of attacks with Swashbuckling + Shield Bash and TWF - except the Swashbuckling attacks will use 1.5x/1x stats vs. 1x/0.5x stats.

    My best guess is that the highest dps pure Bard build would be a 12 racial AP Half-Elf Rogue Dilettante, with 41 VKF, T3+ Swashbuckling, based around Dexterity. However, it wouldn't be all that much better than more conventional builds - and worse than any number of multi-class builds.

    This also doesn't account for issues of AE or helpless damage.

  3. #3
    Community Member Maelodic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fivetigers33 View Post
    Seeing the DPS threads made me think about what the best possible build would be for melee dps on 20 levels of Bard. I know other classes and multiclass builds would be better, but just for some chuckles, I'm wondering what build would be the extreme melee dps for pure bard.

    My initial thoughts would be dual dagger warchanter/vistani. Not sure which T5 would be better.

    Or possibly a handaxe swashbuckler with T5 in warchanter and Headman's Chop?


    Anyone else tried to go max melee dps on a pure bard?
    Maxing group DPS would obviously be Warchanter T5, and if you count helpless damage you'd probably want warchanter T5 as well.

    That being said, if you're fighting things already helpless or you're getting helpless with a different tactic, going vistani T5/capstone is more personal DPS.

    But if you're going vistani bard, there's very little reason to go pure.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fivetigers33 View Post
    Seeing the DPS threads made me think about what the best possible build would be for melee dps on 20 levels of Bard. I know other classes and multiclass builds would be better, but just for some chuckles, I'm wondering what build would be the extreme melee dps for pure bard.

    My initial thoughts would be dual dagger warchanter/vistani. Not sure which T5 would be better.

    Or possibly a handaxe swashbuckler with T5 in warchanter and Headman's Chop?


    Anyone else tried to go max melee dps on a pure bard?
    I would go with a swashbuckler and take cap for evasion. Dex for attack and dmg with evasion is great. Maybe a drow for bonus dex and charisma. As for weapon, it depends on if your going to be at cap for a while or not. If you are, then i agree with using handaxe for big range and multiplier with LD.

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    Build Constructionist unbongwah's Avatar
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    Warchanter DPS alone is weak; Warchanter freeze helplessness plus some combo of Swashbuckler and Vistani would be a lot better. Although that's a pretty AP-constrained split.

    Another option would be PDK bard 20 (if you don't mind LR +1) using shortswords for Cormyrian Knight Training (CHA to-hit and DC bonus).

    https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthrea...archanter-Bard

    Pretty sure there's a pure bard version in there somewhere...
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    Community Member Jetrule's Avatar
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    Single weapon fighting with swashbuckler as the main main tree. Using int to hit and damage from harper makes for a very fast attacking high doublestrike character with a total of double your int bonus to damage from know the angles and single weapon fighting. That is probably the best dps base. I would say vistani as a secondary tree will provide the next most benefit to dps with daggers any way. For truly maxing dps on non stone guard non skelie and a few other very pirce resistant foes then vistani main tree swash secondary, sacrificing evasion and cdg is better dps.

    The problem is you will have a bard who is int based and spending a feat for insightful reflexes. It would have poor use on its cc spells and less versatile being mostly a dagger user.

    Maybe roll a gnome and at least have a fantastic color spray cc that inflicts helpless too. Having constantly helpless opponents is alot of trash dps and it sets them up nicely for a coup degras.

    On a pure bard its hard to beat light picks with exploit weakness. Another reason for a gnome bard dpser. They also get extra dodge and dodge cap. Extra umd and int based dragon mark symbol of stunning. Bonuses to hit and damage for several swashbuckling weapons, the more I think about it the more I like it

    Fully charged blitz in dreadnought is still the top destiny for melee dps. But if I were playing a primarily light pick using int based bard in epics divine crusader and shadow dancer both look tempting.
    Last edited by Jetrule; 06-18-2018 at 07:16 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by flute136 View Post
    If you are, then i agree with using handaxe for big range and multiplier with LD.
    +1 critical multiplier on 19-20 isn't actually very effective on a weapon that already have a 15-20/x3 critical multiplier. The reason you saw Bards taking Handaxe was because they could make it into a 15-20/x4 weapon via Strike with No Thought. This isn't an option on a pure Bard, so Handaxe really isn't competitive with Dagger or Light Mace.

  8. #8
    Community Member Jetrule's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hjarki View Post
    +1 critical multiplier on 19-20 isn't actually very effective on a weapon that already have a 15-20/x3 critical multiplier. The reason you saw Bards taking Handaxe was because they could make it into a 15-20/x4 weapon via Strike with No Thought. This isn't an option on a pure Bard, so Handaxe really isn't competitive with Dagger or Light Mace.
    Its still good with the named hand axe. Forgotten axe.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hjarki View Post
    +1 critical multiplier on 19-20 isn't actually very effective on a weapon that already have a 15-20/x3 critical multiplier. The reason you saw Bards taking Handaxe was because they could make it into a 15-20/x4 weapon via Strike with No Thought. This isn't an option on a pure Bard, so Handaxe really isn't competitive with Dagger or Light Mace.
    I didnt mention headman chop first, i just was agreeing with him handaxes in swash is awesomein general

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    I'm surprised with everyone's love for exploit weakness. I agree it sounds awesome, but that's not quite my experience with it. When your critical threat range is already 14-20, you end up rolling in your normal crit range and get rid of all your stacks of exploit weakness far more often than it actually benefits you with an extra crit.

    Warchanter T5 isn't bad at all. Spinning ice to make things helpless. +1 crit multiplier on rolls of 19-20 (this is the same as, and stacks with both overwhelming crit and devastating crit). This is nice for want weapon, not sure why people think it's more useful on some weapon types more than others. Then the flat +5% damage is nice too.

    Vistani T5 is more about burst dps,which it excels at. I just don't know if it would be that much better than Warchanter.

    In terms of twf vs swf, I was under the impression that twf was the clear winner for DPS. How many swf rogue assassins do you see out there?
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    Build Constructionist unbongwah's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fivetigers33 View Post
    I'm surprised with everyone's love for exploit weakness. I agree it sounds awesome, but that's not quite my experience with it. When your critical threat range is already 14-20, you end up rolling in your normal crit range and get rid of all your stacks of exploit weakness far more often than it actually benefits you with an extra crit.
    A long time ago, someone crunched the numbers and argued that Exploit Weakness was functionally equivalent to having a permanent +1 crit range bonus; i.e., it generated enough extra crits to being the DPS equivalent of having a 14-20 crit range presuming we're talking default Swashbuckler weapons (15-20/x3). The effect is less noticeable when using weapons which already have a larger-than-normal crit range.
    Warchanter T5 isn't bad at all. Spinning ice to make things helpless.
    The drawback is WC DCs are CHA-based and there are only a couple of options for CHA to dmg and even fewer for CHA to-hit.
    In terms of twf vs swf, I was under the impression that twf was the clear winner for DPS. How many swf rogue assassins do you see out there?
    It depends on a lot of factors. E.g., for a pure rogue, you have a ton of sneak attacks, which benefits from the higher hit rate of TWF vs SWF, which makes up for other factors. OTOH bard / Swashbuckler is so obviously geared towards SWF that you're not gaining as much going TWF. Or rather, TWF Vistani isn't gaining much DPS from pure bard.
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    Thanks for all the feedback. Whenever I get around to doing more epic melee lives I'll probably try different builds each life. This wont be anytime soon unfortunately. Though I'm sure I'll get around to them all eventually.

    TWF Warchanter/Vistani daggers
    SWF Swash/Vistani dagger
    SWF Warchanter/Swash handaxe

    I might try to come up with an Intelligence based build too to work in some of the Harper tree.
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    The Hatchery zwiebelring's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by unbongwah View Post
    Warchanter DPS alone is weak; Warchanter freeze helplessness plus some combo of Swashbuckler and Vistani would be a lot better. Although that's a pretty AP-constrained split.

    Another option would be PDK bard 20 (if you don't mind LR +1) using shortswords for Cormyrian Knight Training (CHA to-hit and DC bonus).

    https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthrea...archanter-Bard

    Pretty sure there's a pure bard version in there somewhere...
    Do you have some numbers as an example? Right now my Warchanter deals as much damage as did my Barbarian before (using your AP split suggestion ;P...or was it Tyrenoco's... don't remember Oo) on helpless mobs. But that time he didn't have the option of sentient set bonus to melee pwoer, so either my Barbarian was weak or my Warchanter benefits way more from sentient setbonus than I thought.

    Some numbers per swing would be nice.
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    Quote Originally Posted by unbongwah View Post
    A long time ago, someone crunched the numbers and argued that Exploit Weakness was functionally equivalent to having a permanent +1 crit range bonus; i.e., it generated enough extra crits to being the DPS equivalent of having a 14-20 crit range presuming we're talking default Swashbuckler weapons (15-20/x3). The effect is less noticeable when using weapons which already have a larger-than-normal crit range.
    It's more like +1.5 (+2 for Picks). If you're using Shield Bashes, this is bumped up a tiny bit on the main hand weapon and the shield itself tends to have about double the critical range.

    It depends on a lot of factors. E.g., for a pure rogue, you have a ton of sneak attacks, which benefits from the higher hit rate of TWF vs SWF, which makes up for other factors. OTOH bard / Swashbuckler is so obviously geared towards SWF that you're not gaining as much going TWF. Or rather, TWF Vistani isn't gaining much DPS from pure bard.
    Perhaps the best way to understand why TWF underperforms SWF is to recognize that, on a Bard, TWF doesn't attack more often.

    Base attack rate is about 88 attacks/minute. This is increased to ~101 (TWF, 15% haste) and ~128 (SWF, 45% haste). @128 attacks/minute, your level 30 shield bashes will proc near cap - let's say 50/minute.

    It's fairly easy to get near cap Doublestrike. With 90% Doublestrike, our SWF has 128*1.9+50 = 293 attacks/minute. With 70% main/10% off, our TWF has 101 * (1.7 + 1.1) = 282 attacks/minute.

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    Community Member Jetrule's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hjarki View Post
    It's more like +1.5 (+2 for Picks). If you're using Shield Bashes, this is bumped up a tiny bit on the main hand weapon and the shield itself tends to have about double the critical range.



    Perhaps the best way to understand why TWF underperforms SWF is to recognize that, on a Bard, TWF doesn't attack more often.

    Base attack rate is about 88 attacks/minute. This is increased to ~101 (TWF, 15% haste) and ~128 (SWF, 45% haste). @128 attacks/minute, your level 30 shield bashes will proc near cap - let's say 50/minute.

    It's fairly easy to get near cap Doublestrike. With 90% Doublestrike, our SWF has 128*1.9+50 = 293 attacks/minute. With 70% main/10% off, our TWF has 101 * (1.7 + 1.1) = 282 attacks/minute.
    This dps difference is further amplified by swf gaining 1.5 base stat bonus to damage twf gets only 50% stat damage bonus on offhand, and having a generally better hitbox so that more attacks are actually landing. swf gets a bit of melee power and twf none.
    Last edited by Jetrule; 06-19-2018 at 11:09 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hjarki View Post
    Perhaps the best way to understand why TWF underperforms SWF is to recognize that, on a Bard, TWF doesn't attack more often.

    Base attack rate is about 88 attacks/minute. This is increased to ~101 (TWF, 15% haste) and ~128 (SWF, 45% haste). @128 attacks/minute, your level 30 shield bashes will proc near cap - let's say 50/minute.

    It's fairly easy to get near cap Doublestrike. With 90% Doublestrike, our SWF has 128*1.9+50 = 293 attacks/minute. With 70% main/10% off, our TWF has 101 * (1.7 + 1.1) = 282 attacks/minute.
    Starting with base 88 attacks/minute.

    SWF
    +45% attack speed
    90% doublestrike

    242.44 attacks/minute


    TWF
    +15% attack speed
    +80% offhand
    90% doublestrike
    5% offhand doublestrike (up to 11% with iconic scourge past lives)

    192.28 mainhand
    85.00 offhand

    277.28 total attacks/minute (a few more with scourge past lives)

    While it's close-ish, you'll still get more attacks with two weapon fighting. And yes your ability modifier will add more damage while SWF, but even if you are at 100 STR/DEX/CHA/INT, that's only +22 (maybe 70ish with endgame Bard melee power) extra damage. When sneak attack damage is in the hundreds, plus any other procs that your offhand weapon is doing, I think TWF will pull ahead. I could be wrong, but at the very least the two styles are close in DPS.


    Quote Originally Posted by zwiebelring View Post
    Do you have some numbers as an example? Right now my Warchanter deals as much damage as did my Barbarian before (using your AP split suggestion ;P...or was it Tyrenoco's... don't remember Oo) on helpless mobs.
    Warchanters lack the flat +1 crit multiplier and +1 crit threat range that a lot of other melee trees get (Swashbuckler, Ninja Assassin, Kensai, Vistani, etc.) If you don't work in those crit profile improvements, the Warchanter dps will be behind just about anything else with an improved crit profile. The T5 warchanter +1 crit multiplier on rolls of 19-20 should be stacked on top of an already improved crit profile, not used in place of. So the base numbers you are seeming may seem similar (both builds doing 250 base damage for example), it's over time that that the dps differences will show up due to one of them having more/better crits.
    Last edited by Fivetigers33; 06-19-2018 at 12:05 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fivetigers33 View Post
    Starting with base 88 attacks/minute.

    SWF
    +45% attack speed
    90% doublestrike

    242.44 attacks/minute
    You're forgetting about the ~50 attacks/minute from shield bashes.

    TWF
    +15% attack speed
    +80% offhand
    90% doublestrike
    5% offhand doublestrike (up to 11% with iconic scourge past lives)

    192.28 mainhand
    73.92 offhand

    266.2 total attacks/minute
    Your main hand doublestrike on TWF will lag SWF by ~20% due to the combination of Legendary Shield Mastery and Swashbuckler cores. However, you can also get 100% off-hand proc chance and more than 5% off-hand doublestrike via VKF pretty easily.

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    Community Member Jetrule's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fivetigers33 View Post
    Starting with base 88 attacks/minute.

    SWF
    +45% attack speed
    90% doublestrike

    242.44 attacks/minute


    TWF
    +15% attack speed
    +80% offhand
    90% doublestrike
    5% offhand doublestrike (up to 11% with iconic scourge past lives)

    192.28 mainhand
    85.00 offhand

    277.28 total attacks/minute (a few more with scourge past lives)

    While it's close-ish, you'll still get more attacks with two weapon fighting. And yes your ability modifier will add more damage while SWF, but even if you are at 100 STR/DEX/CHA/INT, that's only +22 (maybe 70ish with endgame Bard melee power) extra damage. When sneak attack damage is in the hundreds, plus any other procs that your offhand weapon is doing, I think TWF will pull ahead. I could be wrong, but at the very least the two styles are close in DPS.




    Warchanters lack the flat +1 crit multiplier and +1 crit threat range that a lot of other melee trees get (Swashbuckler, Ninja Assassin, Kensai, Vistani, etc.) If you don't work in those crit profile improvements, the Warchanter dps will be behind just about anything else with an improved crit profile. The T5 warchanter +1 crit multiplier on rolls of 19-20 should be stacked on top of an already improved crit profile, not used in place of. So the base numbers you are seeming may seem similar (both builds doing 250 base damage for example), it's over time that that the dps differences will show up due to one of them having more/better crits.
    I'm not arguing dps on combat styles in general but combat styles on a pure bard. There I think due to the enhanced crit profiles of swashbuckling and exploit weakness, the damage bonus of 2x int modifier from kta and swf, the sheer number of attacks of swf and shield bashes the clear winner is int based swashbuckler with a buckler. What ever a pure bard could get with sneak attack damage two weapon fighting it can also get single weapon fighting.

    Even though bards have hide for a skill I would probably make my hypothetical dps bard with scion of the fey wild for always procing sonic damage rather than situational scion of ethreal sneak attack damage. with deception and improved deception items on ethreal probably wins in most quests but somne things are immune to sneak attacks and gearing both deception and improved deception and all the hide and dex and the other type of to hit and damage deception bonuses realy eliminates alot of other great gear choices.
    Last edited by Jetrule; 06-19-2018 at 12:53 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jetrule View Post
    I'm not arguing dps on combat styles in general but combat styles on a pure bard. There I think due to the enhanced crit profiles of swashbuckling and exploit weakness, the damage bonus of 2x int modifier from kta and swf, the sheer number of attacks of swf and shield bashes the clear winner is int based swashbuckler with a buckler.
    Just one correction, KTA adds 0.5x int mod, not 2x. Unless the wiki is incorrect and this ability is just godly OP. I've never actually used it.



    Quote Originally Posted by Hjarki View Post
    You're forgetting about the ~50 attacks/minute from shield bashes.
    I hadn't factored in shield bashes, but I can see how those could make exploit weakness a little better.
    31% shield bashing (van richten's cane) would add 39.55 attacks/minute to SWF and put the total at 281.99 which is virtually the same as TWF. Though I doubt your shield bashes are doing as much damage as, say, pain or suffering in your offhand would be doing.

    At that point the question becomes which tree adds more DPS per attack, Vistani or Swashbuckler, and I'd have to look closer at the trees to try to determine that, as well as how much of the vistani stuff requires twf and how much just requires a dagger.
    Last edited by Fivetigers33; 06-19-2018 at 12:53 PM.
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    Community Member Jetrule's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fivetigers33 View Post
    Just one correction, KTA adds 0.5x int mod, not 2x. Unless the wiki is incorrect and this ability is just godly OP. I've never actually used it.





    I hadn't factored in shield bashes, but I can see how those could make exploit weakness a little better.
    31% shield bashing (van richten's cane) would add 39.55 attacks/minute to SWF and put the total at 281.99 which is virtually the same as TWF. Though I doubt your shield bashes are doing as much damage as, say, pain or suffering in your offhand would be doing.

    At that point the question becomes which tree adds more DPS per attack, Vistani or Swashbuckler, and I'd have to look closer at the trees to try to determine that, as well as how much of the vistani stuff requires twf and how much just requires a dagger.
    On the KTA bonus you are correct but it stacks with the 0.5x int mod you would get from swf. bringing the total to 2x. base 1x swf .5x and kta .5x to 2x Playing a gnome art melee the best int I had was 94 in shadow dancer with one of those long lasting potions of ability as my only temp buff. I suspect 86 would be my cap at lvl 30 on a int based bard since no bard tree provides intelligence. well 92 I guess if I heavily sold the versatility of weapon types and defenses of swashbuckler out for more in harper tree and vistani tree.

    On the question of which main tree is better dps. I strongly suspect Vistani in general. I just prefer the versatility of not being tied to a single damage type especially piercing, the most resisted type in ddo.
    Last edited by Jetrule; 06-19-2018 at 01:17 PM.
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