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  1. #101
    Community Member Selvera's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Silverleafeon View Post
    Excellent point.
    Been there, during a potential raid wipe, its the Rez cooldown timers that become much more difficult than players realize.
    If you have the spell and the scroll you're raising people every 5 seconds. If you have people dying more often then every 5 seconds; then maybe you should consider having someone else scroll raises and you focus on healing instead.

    I've prevented a raid wipe by stopping casting raises as the healer; and instead focusing on healing.

    Quote Originally Posted by karatemack View Post
    The whole post
    Looks to me like the tree isn't made for you. It's a tree for healing and buffing OTHER PEOPLE, not a tree for healing/buffing yourself in reaper and pretending to be a bland warsoul.

    As someone who likes playing healers (especially if I happen to find people who need healing AND can kill stuff at > half the speed I could kill stuff on a non-healer build, which is disappointingly rare), I like the direction of the tree; although 90 heal amp might be a bit much for it. Would be good if some of the "power" in the tree was relocated to less heal amp (60 total buffed?) and more towards buffing allies in interesting and interactive ways.


    My latest idea of a great direction this tree could take to be more fun to play is if each of the "Hope" buffs gave 2 abilities which share the same cooldown but have different effects.

    For example:
    Tier 1 you get
    Hope for Inspiration: Grant 1/4 of fvs level to all skills for 20 seconds. This shares a cooldown and dispels hope for acceleration.
    And
    Hope for Acceleration: Target ally gets 30% striding for 1 minute. This shares a cooldown and dispels hope for inspiration.

    Tier 2 you get
    Hope for Protection: Grant 15 + 1/2 of fvs level to PRR and MRR for 20 seconds. This shares a cooldown and dispels hope for deftness.
    And
    Hope for Deftness: Grant 4 + 1/5 of fvs level to dodge, max dex bonus of armor and dodge cap for 20 seconds. This shares a cooldown and dispels Hope for Protection.

    This way the healer/buffer has to make the choice of what buffs are best for the target in any given situation. Against some enemies you'd want to give your ally prr/mrr, against some enemies you want to give them dodge chance. etc.
    Last edited by Selvera; 06-10-2018 at 03:35 AM.
    Selvera: Human Fighter 18; Inquisitive build
    Jen: Half Elf Fvs 20/Epic 10; Healer Archer with a more supportive build then usual
    Mayve: Tiefling Sorc 14; Just a pastlife for an alt

  2. #102
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    Quote Originally Posted by Selvera View Post
    If you have people dying more often then every 5 seconds; then maybe you should consider having someone else scroll raises and you focus on healing instead.

    I've prevented a raid wipe by stopping casting raises as the healer; and instead focusing on healing.

    Excellent advice, at times I have done exactly that.

    What is scary is when 8 or 9 party members in a raid die all at once.
    And you are in a raid where scrolling can be interrupted by damage...

    Suddenly its you and one other party member still alive...

  3. #103
    Community Member Morroiel's Avatar
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    Post On a more thorough look and after detailed spreadsheeting / computaitonal simulating

    Quote Originally Posted by Steelstar View Post
    snip...Introduction of Buffing / Healing FvS Tree
    First off: thank you for doing a third FvS tree. Thank you for making it in the style of ranger, rogue, and warlock: having all 3 trees behave in a way the provides varied build support is a crucial design fundamental, which imo makes the aforementioned classes superior from a design pov over the other passes. To get at what I'm saying, Beacon of Hope / AoV, Beacon of Hope / Warsoul, Warsoul / Beacon of Hope, AoV / Beacon of Hope, AoV/ Warsoul, and Warsoul / AoV should all be functionally playable, where the different primary and secondary specs are viable but build out a unique playstyle. Good job with this - the theme is on point! The only thing that's needed is follow through on balancing the other trees to make sure that the viable part rings true.

    Second off: buffs, more importantly...meaningful buffs have been missing from the game due to rampant power creep. It is nice to see an effort to reintroduce meaningful buffs to the game. Additionally in contradiction to many players requests, I LOVE that you have added a skill component to buffing. Having double the length (though I think double duration of cooldown + 1 would be better overall duration to account for lag / glitching) ensures that there's a high skill ceiling than usual for buffing - a player who wants to work to get better can achieve more optimal buffing timings and knowledge. Making use of the buffs in an optimal scenario will require great quest / content knowledge, as well as, build knowledge - will this prr make a difference on our tank? or should i give it to a squishy? These are the kinds of things and dilemmas I LOVE about this game. Please DO NOT shy away from this design mechanic - it is simply put one of the best things to happen to the game in a long time (imo).

    I've taken a hard look at this tree, and I've spreadsheeted various iterations of a few builds. I've thought long and hard about how these buffs and abilities will be used in the high reaper and challenge endgame communities. I understand that that balance isn't your chief concern, but I hope - no I pray that it at least registers as a concern (however minor). I understand that not all builds should be viable on high skull reaper - to ensure this would require many man hours of balance passes, frequent balance passes. However, I'm a firm believer that all classes should have a place in all content no matter how high or how low in difficulty. I believe this tree represents some of the most innovative design work your team has done in a long time (with regards to player options), but I worry that it will drastically cut down in build variety in endgame reaper amongst healing classes. There's already a decent tier list where cleric and FvS are on top of bard and druid - FvS stands atop cleric on this tier list but does so by only a hairs breadth if both builds are optimized and played correctly (in a lot of cases it comes down to content choices and player comfort).

    To support the above claim, I'm going to talk about why FvS receiving this tree will push the balance further away in such a way that FvS reigns king for endgame raiding:

    • Recently they received a massive hp buff previously, which largely balanced out the benefits endgame reaper healers get from the cleric domains. This is not to say that cleric domains do not provide better rewards in lower difficulties or even in high skull reaper quests (death domain is particularly effective in heroic high skull reaper).
    • They natively have a much higher sp pool than clerics. This isn't super critical as achievement run players will spare no expense for mana pots, etc. in achievement styled runs. It still however is a benefit that needs to be taken into account (though probably less than most players would rank it as important).
    • The divine spell list is super small, meaning that beyond a few important spell levels (9th levels being one of these) there is little advantage to the expanded spell slots that cleric brings. This tree's slas (I'm specifically talking about the fact that there are only 4 9th level spells worth taking for any fvs build). This has been a pretty unbalancing issue between fvs and cleric for a while (much moreso than wiz/sorc due to the spell variety in wiz/sorc).
    • Rebuke foe + archon interaction. This is seemingly not that important but it allows you to stack rebuke without focusing on keeping light stacks up. In high skull raids (if you are twist rebuke) you can keep 2 mobs (possibly more depending on a few things) at full stacks.
    • Archon ensures that you can stack healing spell power by keeping light stacks close to max. If running blood and radiance.
    • Additionally if you happen to be running in Exalted Angel (usually a questionable decision in high skull raiding but possible for the secondary healer to be in), reborn in light will be always available, essentially allowing instant fix from any party wipe basically ever (especially considering that your dc caster will also likely have this - Side Note - reborn in light NEEDS to be addressed sooner than later.
    • Your healers gain at a minimum 26 mrr and prr, possibly 56 of each if your raid healers buff each other (with 1 of their 2 targets - using the second targets likely on the dc caster and a squishy dps toon or tank (depending on incoming burst damage).
    • When you are pushing the boundaries on what is possible in the game (currently), you'll wind up in a situation where some of your builds have to optimize in a way that precludes them from surviving. This tree provides tools to give a player or two a significant window of error with regards to their survivability (expect some dps builds to optimize with the expectation of receiving these buffs).
    • Wall of healing (especially if its duration is unaffected by reaper scaling, but I'm in the belief that it probably is affected by reaper scaling and will talk about it as if it is, if its not - these statements apply even more). Now casting time, range, width, etc. .... there are many variables that will alter the power level of this ability. While it is an exceptionally unique and imo creative ability (and I applaud that) I am worried what it means for clerics and druids. For comparison druids regenerate heals 28.5 base healing (before spell crit and spell power, of which druids have far less than someone invested in this tree). Cure moderate wounds in this tree (capped) heals for an average base of 24. It should be noted that maximize and empower apply to cure moderate though it is unknown if it will apply to the wall of healing. It is clear that druids are outclassed when the ability is off cooldown (regen does have an advantage in that the cooldown is significantly smaller though the magnitude will be lower and the cost higher). Clerics positive aura is a quarter of hte base healing coming in at 6 base hp restored but has a significant drawback in that you have to be in melee range. Maximize and empower also do not apply to this ability. I'm worried that this ability coupled with the fact that in raids the long cooldown will be mitigated partially by another healer in the group with the ability WILL undoubtedly further erode the druid's niche (which seems to be growing ever smaller as this divine pass is coming to a close), and more importantly will severely step on clerics' toes as well (think of just how much clerics have to sacrifice to get that one crappy HoT).
    • The damage boosts to party members will shore up one of the weaknesses that healers bring to high skull content. They allow others to dish out considerably more dps (either statically - melee/ranged power) or impressive amounts of burst dps (I don't even want to mention how much stronger this makes fury throwers, crit multi boosts are devastating). Newer content has shied away from dps lockouts / races / etc. (which I think is good design change) but increased dps (especially radically increased burst dps potential) can short circuit some challenging raid components by eliminating minor targets quickly, or by overcoming certain obstacles faster than design took into account for (e.g. bosses with buffs when they drop below an HP % threshold). Further, this just helps to cement the fact that other melee/ranged players are going to want a FvS Beacon along for that tasty dps buffs. And faster completions are faster completions.
    • Lastly, I'm worried about the healing amp. There is an impressive and truly astonishing amount of healing amplification in this tree, which is fine to a certain degree. I'm fine with this tree being the tree that allows healing to be passable (but not competitive) in high skull reaper if thats the design you want. My requirement for being okay with this is that the healing amplification needs to be backloaded into the T5s and capstone (and possibly the lvl 18 core). You do not want melee builds who already splash 1 fvs to gain even more from this buff. 3/3/3/6/6/30 would do it at the same numbers - though I'd beg you to consider the implications of a healer who can self heal in reaper (the numbers I ran put me at a spot in which (depending on how certain abilities interact), I could conceivably heal myself to full in 2 button presses (from zero) in r10.


    I'm going to go through the abilities now and just give slight recommendations, etc. Unless specified otherwise, it will be line by line correspondence to how the abilities are listed in quotes.

    Quote Originally Posted by Steelstar View Post

    • Core 1: For each Core ability you gain, +1% Positive Spell Critical Chance, +10 Healing Amp, and +5 Positive Spell Power.
    • Core 2: Beacon of Grace: Cost: 2 SP: You and allies ahead of you* heal for 1 point of Positive Energy per Favored Soul level. This scales with your Positive Spell Power. 6 second cooldown.
    • Core 3: Shining Light: Whenever you cast one of your Beacons or use Flight of Glory, you and affected allies gain a Sacred bonus to Healing Amplification equal to your Favored Soul level for 12 seconds. Enemies in the zone of effect are dazzled and take a -1 penalty to attack, spot, and search. These enemies are illuminated by Shining Light, dispelling stealth, invisibility, blur, and displacement, for 10 seconds, and giving a -40 penalty to hide. Sightless enemies are immune to the dazzle effect.
    • Core 4: Beacon of Hope: Cost: 15 SP: You and allies ahead of you* take the effects of a Panacea and a Restoration spell, and heal for 5 points of Positive Energy per Favored Soul level. This scales with 100% Positive Spell Power. 30 second cooldown.
    • Core 5: Flight of Glory: When you use your Leap of Faith, nearby allies gain Temporary Hit Points equal to twice your character level, plus an additional 25.
    • Core 6: True Resurrection SLA: 25 SP. 10 second cooldown. Multiselector:
      • Passive:+4 WIS. You gain +3 Maximum Caster Level with all Positive spells. Your Hope and Beacon abilities that scale with Favored Soul level now add Epic Levels as well.
      • Passive: +4 CHA. You gain +3 Maximum Caster Level with all Positive spells. Your Hope and Beacon abilities that scale with Favored Soul level now add Epic Levels as well.

    1. Shift healing amp to be backloaded. See my last bullet point in the post above.
    2. Double the cooldown of beacon of grace or make it so that the cone radius is roughly the size of scorch, NO bigger and no WIDER. Which metamagics apply? I'd encourage you to allow metamagics to apply when possible. There's no mention of this scaling with spell power.
    3. Do not have it apply to yourself unless the intent is for this tree to be able to self heal in r10 (if that's the case maybe halve the bonus to yourself). Would be nice if you guys also took this as an opportunity to make debuffs matter when you can for content. This debuff while thematically cool lacks a strong use case in high skull reaper. Maybe enemies also receive an AC debuff (-1%) - also change that flat penalty to %. Flat penalties have a bad lifespan in this game, especially for attack, spot, and search.
    4. Metamagics?
    5. Don't know the area of effect of this but this is potentially very dangerous, and in a lot of cases besides lower difficulties will not be used. I think (though I know this isn't possible due to time constaints) a cooler ability would have been granting someone the use of your leap of faith until you toggle it off (disallowing you the ability). (tech would involve creating a summonable item that allows you to use leap of faith, thats dispelled on fvs death, etc.). As it stands, if the area of effect is large I like it because leap of faith was originally supposed to be a monk/fvs thing but now pretty much every build and their mother has access to some form of wings. So this is cool to buff it in a meaningful way that fits the tree. I'd be VERY cautious about putting in this ability if the radius is too small - if this requires getting in melee range you are giving positive feedback to bad playstyle (a healer/buffer SHOULD as a general rule almost never be in melee combat - barring a warsoul / beacon build). An additional idea I thought of was to receive and grant temp sp instead. This would obviously have to be a smaller amount but would highlight one of the niches that fvs is supposed to shine at in divine classes hierarchy - you could keep it to a tight radius making it so that the optimal gameplay for this type of toon is encouraged as dc casters, etc. won't be in the melee fray either.
    6. Its fine but in order to be okay with this - I really need to encourage you to expand the divine spell list especially the 9th levels.


    Quote Originally Posted by Steelstar View Post
    Tier 1:

    • Good Hope SLA 10/5/2 SP. (3 second cooldown)
    • Confidence: +1/+2/+3 Concentration, Diplomacy and Heal. Rank 3: You also gain +10 Positive Energy Spell Power.
    • Divine Durability: +2/4/6 Competence Bonus to PRR.
    • Spell Critical Chance: Positive: +2%
    • Spell Points: 30/60/90 Spell Points



    Tier 2:
    1. Another spell though its outclassed in a lot of ways now. Again even though this isn't on the divine spell list, it just shows that things like this needs to be looked at, a lot of old buffs should receive minor nudges back into relevance.
    2. Nothing to say
    3. 1/2/3 or 1/2/4 would probably be my recommendation. There's a ton of prr/mrr that FvS raid healers are getting from this tree that clerics will be sorely missing.
    4. expected and on point
    5. Can't complain though an original ability would have been preferred here - maybe something like if you fail to crit with a healing spell, your healing crit chance increases by 1% till you crit.


    Quote Originally Posted by Steelstar View Post
    • Close Wounds SLA: (6/4/2 Spell Points) (3/2/1 second cooldown)
    • Hope for Inspiration: Target ally gains a Sacred bonus to all Skills equal to 1/4 your Favored Soul level for 12 seconds. 6 second cooldown.
    • Divine Durability II: +2/4/6 Competence bonus to MRR.
    • Spell Critical Chance: Positive: +2%
    • Might's Reward: Multiselector (Shares a cooldown and same SP cost as Divine Might).
      • You gain an Sacred bonus to Positive Spell Power equal to your Strength modifier for 30/60/120 seconds.
      • You gain an Sacred bonus to Positive Spell Power equal to your Wisdom modifier for 30/60/120 seconds.
      • You gain an Sacred bonus to Positive Spell Power equal to your Charisma modifier for 30/60/120 seconds.



    Tier 3:
    1. Nice for stacking certain things but beyond reborn in light (which I add again NEEDS to be looked at) is useless for this tree atm. This spell needs to be looked at. Maybe adding an effect to remove dot damage or a single dot stack per cast.
    2. This is the one ability I'm going to say you guys missed the mark on severely from a design pov. 5 + 2.5 (for epic levels) is going to barely register and honestly besides the tangential benefits of being a hope ability is nearly useless. I'd honestly consider moving this to 1 of your favored soul level but with the stipulation that it DOES not apply to hide or move silently (the important one here is hide because of scion of ethereal) - I assume this is the major balance concern as you don't want to add 10 sneak attack base damage to two melee toons on top of the other damage buffs. It also kinda fits thematically - sneaking doesn't really mix with the light/healing/hope theme of the tree.
    3. Echoing my above statment. 1/2/3 or 1/2/4 would probably be my recommendation. There's a ton of prr/mrr that FvS raid healers are getting from this tree that clerics will be sorely missing.
    4. expected and on point
    5. I'd scale this by 1/2, and given that favored souls get to add their wis/cha to hit and damage I wouldn't bother with having a strength option. Hopefully if you leave the strength option its mutually exclusive to know the angles as well.


    Quote Originally Posted by Steelstar View Post
    • Hope for Protection: Target ally gains a Sacred bonus to PRR and MRR equal to your Favored Soul level for 12 seconds. 6 second cooldown.
    • Efficient Empower Healing
    • Spell Critical Chance: Positive: +2%
    • WIS/CHA



    Tier 4:
    1. This is dangerous for the reasons I outlined in my bullet points way above. I'd seriously consider making it so that granting this decreases your prr/mrr by 1/2 of the bonus you confer. There needs to be some benefit to drawback the obscene positive. This is a game changing ability when comboed with unconscious range extending and a few other things in this tree.
    2. sure though metamagics in general need to be looked at - I personally think we should go back to when they had a seperate multiplier but change their costs to %s (efficient and improved metamagics would lower the %, 25% -> 23% for 2% reduction, etc.).
    3. expected and on-point
    4. expected and on point, though I'd probably include con as an option


    Quote Originally Posted by Steelstar View Post
    • Death Ward SLA: 10/8/5 SP (4 second cooldown)
    • Hope for Victory: Target ally gains a Sacred Bonus to Melee Power and Ranged Power equal to half your Favored Soul level, and Universal Spell Power equal to your Favored Soul level. This lasts for 12 seconds. 6 second cooldown.
    • Optimism: Every time you cast one of your Hope abilities, you gain a stack of Rising Beacon, giving yourself +2 PRR, +2 MRR, and +1 AC. This stacks up to 10 times, and stacks fade once every 12 seconds. Hope for Success grants 3 stacks.
    • Spell Critical Chance: Positive: +2%
    • WIS/CHA



    Tier 5:
    1. Sure this is one of the few spell levels where FvS have to actually make a decision in spell selection, so this is actually somewhat worth it. (the choice being postponed if not chosen to level 8 spells) I'd probably just make it mass deathward though for ease of use and time saving. Maybe increase the sp cost to the cost of the spell and call it a day.
    2. I know it gets a bit more wordy but melee power != ranged power != spell power. In general 1 ranged power = 2 melee power = 4-6 spell power (depending on build/class). I would change the bonus to reflect this unless you want me to focus on buffing the ranged toons with this (I will NEVER use this on a caster as it stands for multiple reasons - dps casting is dead, 30 spell power isn't going to change how i heal or my counterpart heals). I'd probably change universal spell power to be spell power crit chance and give it the same bonus as ranged power, which should be half of what it is currently (7 RP or spell crit % vs 15 MP).
    3. Change to a toggle pick: this boosts your prr, mrr, or % ac. 1 for one you pick, stacking up to 25 times. This would allow you to pick +25% ac as a buff. As it stands the few AC boosts in this tree are almost utterly useless. AC either needs to be LARGE flat boosts (like >+25) or % increases that stack with other % increases.
    4. Expected
    5. Expected though con should be an option.


    Quote Originally Posted by Steelstar View Post
    • Raise Dead SLA: 15 SP, 9 second cooldown
    • Hope for Success: Target ally gains +1 to Critical Threat Range and Multiplier with weapons for 12 seconds. 60 second cooldown.
    • Heal SLA: 40 SP, 6 second cooldown
    • Undying Beacon: Allies affected by your Beacons gain Unconsciousness Range equal to 10x your Favored Soul level. This effect lasts for 12 seconds, and is refreshed if the target is affected by another Beacon spell.
    • Wall of Healing: Cost: 30 Spell Points. Create a wall that persists for 30 seconds. Allies and Undead in the wall take a Cure Moderate Wounds spell every few seconds. 60 second cooldown.
    1. Worthless. By level 12, you have access to rez scrolls and the rez spell. If a player (let alone a healer) tosses me a raise dead past level 15 (unless their toon is incapable of casting it with umd), that earns a permanent black mark from me. 10% hp rez is WORTHLESS. I repeat it is WORTHLESS in the current state of the game.
    2. This is really strong but its strength varies dramatically from group to group. I like the skill involved in using this optimally. I WISH that it also granted something for casters, maybe something along the lines of 100 spell crit chance and 100 spell crit multiplier. I'm just throwing out those numbers but dps casting is hurting, no reason to make it hurt even worse than it currently is. This is to say the obvious that this ability should also NOT be able to be used on yourself. Adding more versatility is good for increasing the skill ceiling of abilities like these.
    3. Decent and I'm happy that harm is not an option at the moment (as level 6 is another spell level that is actually important for cleric vs fvs). I hope that you do work on expanding the divine spell list in the future and later add the option to take harm as an option.
    4. 300 extra hp effectively for most characters. This is a lot stronger than you think it is. It will almost certainly have near zero impact in non coordinated raid groups but in static groups this is a game changing ability with several other abilities in this tree. I'm really concerned at the power of this ability. I'd much prefer if this was 5x your favored soul level instead (or an entirely different ability all together). This is one of the core abilities that I see taking the raid healer role away from druids and more importantly clerics.
    5. Can see my bullet points way above for more detailed analysis but I'm seriously concerned about this ability as well. HoTs should be weak like cleric's and have significant drawbacks (melee range) or be exclusive to druids. FvS getting access to this feels like a slap in the face of druids. That being said this ability sounds cool and there's a lot we don't know quite yet about its range, width, length, metamagic options, spell power amplification effects, and most importantly if it decreases duration based on reaper scaling (I hope it does otherwise this is almost certainly too strong).


    Tl;dr: I'm both enthusiastic (this hasn't happened in a LONG time from the dev team regarding player options) as well dying inside from the prospect of this hitting live due to major balance concerns. I'm really concerned about what this means for druids and bards but more importantly I'm worried what it will mean for clerics with regards to the raid healer role in endgame / high reaper raids. I've addressed several things that make FvS's base chasis strong compared to clerics, which until now has kept them relatively within the same ballpark due to clerics having access to trees that support that role; however, with the advent and reformation of the FvS trees, we will see FvS's pull far ahead IF the power represented in their trees stays consistent with that in other trees, while not taking away from the base chasis of the FvS (or buffing the base chasis of clerics - one way I'd consider doing this if I were you Devs would be to allow clerics to pick two domains in exchange for an epic feat, as well as, retuning their radiant servant tree - IF you go the buffing route, I'd prefer nerfing the chasis of FvS as a base). Another key issue is that this tree effectively eliminates a lot (not all but most) of the tough spell selection choices for a FvS, which is supposed to be a weakness compared to clerics. In the end, I'll take the power creep if I have to in order to keep a tree that is a refreshing example of DIFFERENT and somewhat unique gameplay design by the dev team. Ultimately I just want the game to be more fun to play (for me that usually involves challenge) but interesting game design can scratch that niche (if only a little less than challenge does).
    Last edited by Morroiel; 06-10-2018 at 05:04 AM. Reason: list formating, minor edits
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vargouille View Post
    A new harder difficulty is likely to just be that: harder, without giving commensurate power...Ideally, at the very hardest edge of difficulty, we would not know how long it would take until all quests are completed on that difficulty.

  4. #104
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    Quote Originally Posted by PsychoBlonde View Post
    A capstone shouldn't be described as "sometimes it's nice". It should have a large functional effect on the character. It doesn't have to be the most powerful thing in the tree, but it should be good enough to make you seriously consider whether it's worth taking a level or two of something else that provides a major low-hanging-fruit boost, like:

    Would I rather have a Resurrection SLA or . . .

    Be able to use a Runearm, be proficient in repeaters, and get a bonus feat.

    or . . .

    Would I rather have some bonus fighter feats . . .

    or . . .

    Would I rather have paladin saving throws and far better melee stuff . . .

    or . . .

    would I rather have Wizard for some DC boosts and a spellcasting feat . . .

    or . . .

    do I want to swashbuckle?

    Those choices are build-defining, not "sometimes nice".
    To be fair the SLA is only one aspect of the capstone. It is a nice bonus but by no means is it the main power of the capstone. Adding up to 50% to the Hope/Beacon abilities, +3 positive caster level(Level 18 heals), and +4 stat is better than most capstones.

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    This is possibly the least needed and most unimaginitve tree possible. Why bother wasting dev resources on this?

  6. #106
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    Quote Originally Posted by Selvera View Post
    I've prevented a raid wipe by stopping casting raises as the healer; and instead focusing on healing.
    Many of us do that fine (as you mention you have in the past in your example) without this tree. Not that I dislike the tree entirely, just pointing out the obvious since it's sometimes missed.

    Looks to me like the tree isn't made for you. It's a tree for healing and buffing OTHER PEOPLE, not a tree for healing/buffing yourself in reaper and pretending to be a bland warsoul.
    You're making my point. I was pointing out that these self-buffs to defense would perhaps be better in the War Soul tree BECAUSE this tree is all about healing/buffing others.

    Go back and re-read Divine Durability and Optimism. These are boosts to YOUR defenses.

    Optimism: Every time you cast one of your Hope abilities, you gain a stack of Rising Beacon, giving yourself +2 PRR, +2 MRR, and +1 AC. This stacks up to 10 times, and stacks fade once every 12 seconds. Hope for Success grants 3 stacks.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xyfiel View Post
    To be fair the SLA is only one aspect of the capstone. It is a nice bonus but by no means is it the main power of the capstone. Adding up to 50% to the Hope/Beacon abilities, +3 positive caster level(Level 18 heals), and +4 stat is better than most capstones.
    This is why I said the capstone is right on. The caster levels including epics on the buffs is nice.

  8. #108
    Community Member Selvera's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by karatemack View Post
    I was pointing out that these self-buffs to defense would perhaps be better in the War Soul tree BECAUSE this tree is all about healing/buffing others.
    Quote Originally Posted by karatemack View Post
    Hope for Victory... another thing which should be in the War Soul tree and self-only. Optimism is more PRR/MRR...
    Quote Originally Posted by Steelstar View Post
    FAQ:

    Can I cast the Hope buffs on myself?

    • Nope.
    You seem to be ranting about a lot of buffs which aren't self buffs.
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    Quote Originally Posted by edrein View Post
    Beacon of Despair

    *snip*
    This looks like it would be a fun tree. Devs, make it so!

    Devs? Devs? Anyone? Anyone?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Selvera View Post
    You seem to be ranting about a lot of buffs which aren't self buffs.
    You clearly became confused when you read, "Hope for Victory... another thing which should be in the War Soul tree and self-only." Let me re-write that in a way you might understand better, "Hope for Victory... another thing which should be in the War Soul tree as well as being self-only."

    Optimism is a self-buff. Divine Durability grants a bonus to YOU for PRR/MRR. I noticed you "forgot" to respond on those points.
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    Quote Originally Posted by karatemack View Post
    Stuff
    Hope for Victory shouldn't be a self buff, and therefore it shouldn't be in warsoul. And, in general nothing like it should be in warsoul at all anyways.
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    I don't like the Hope abilities being a separate single target buff. It would be great if they were an aoe buff that affected everyone near/in front of the caster or if they worked like Sacred Touch from War Soul "when you heal an ally with a spell it also gains a buff for 12 seconds".

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nandos View Post
    I don't like the Hope abilities being a separate single target buff. It would be great if they were an aoe buff that affected everyone near/in front of the caster or if they worked like Sacred Touch from War Soul "when you heal an ally with a spell it also gains a buff for 12 seconds".
    +1
    Absolutely brilliant.

    Every time you use the Beacon ability it triggers hope on its targets (adjust buffs accordingly) and make the ultimate hope single target per written.

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    From a DC casting perspective even though this is the "healing" tree I would think a pure fvs dc caster would always choose this tree over angel of vengeance for the +4 to main stat (vs. only +2 to char in aov) especially since mass frog is more valuable than energy burst at level cap. For those leveling with plans to TR would likely go charisma for energy burst and more instant gratification at epic levels. You can still dip into aov and get the most critical goodies such as just reward, etc.

    On top of that you get healing amp on top of the synergistic aasimar healing amp + gear = sick level of healing amp, but fvs needed something so I can't really say it's OP vs. cleric domains which give you much more flexibility and build diversity. Martial fvs should stll splash unless they want to go vistani

    The concern about only needing 5 levels of favored soul for the heal spell is overblown although you gain 5 caster levels from divine sphere (it kind of boxes you in to divine crusader or US as a martial build) so it doesn't take much more to get you to a useful heal spell. Giving up tier 5 is too big of an issue for most builds so splashing 5 fvs for heal means some other trade off is made which is fine. Honestly I would prefer mass cure moderate or cure critical sla over heal which would take maximize + empower for free on top of quicken and empower healing for less sp, esp on a dc casting fvs. From the perspective of a healer trying to contribute to the party other ways as well - anything to lower my healing costs is a good thing - so the lower cost slas are preferable to me.
    Last edited by slarden; 06-11-2018 at 05:26 AM.

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    I expect the changes to AoV will make it more appealing for DC casters, unless it ends up entirely focused on Light damage. Hopefully it'll get some tier 5s and a revised Capstone that actually matter, so that players have to make real choices when spending their points.

    The Heal SLA should stay. It's a big draw for the tree, whether you want the double Heal or an extra 6th level spell. And it's just cool. If any SLA needs to be replaced with a Mass Cure, it's the Raise Dead SLA. Turning that into Mass Cure Light Wounds would make it very useful, instead of almost useless.

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    Hey, folks. Thanks for the feedback so far. We've been busy on our end playtesting and making little tweaks here and there, looking to make some improvements before you see it on Lamannia next week.

    Quote Originally Posted by Vyrzain View Post
    /agree.. Might's Reward <Multiselector> should be Score vs. Modifier
    We're of the opinion that that'd be too strong for a Tier 2 Heroic enhancement. That said, if it's not useful on the Heroic end due to being relatively low, we might add a base value before the modifier gets added.

    Quote Originally Posted by PsychoBlonde View Post
    Especially since the crit buff has a 60 second cooldown. I think that's a bad idea and it should have the same cooldown as everything else. The bonus melee and ranged power is probably going to net you more damage overall anyway. The way most people play, keeping these buffs active is going to be basically impossible. Most of the time people will be out of range or out of sight when you need to re-cast it. At least favored souls get wings to make the running after people a little bit easier, but only a little bit.
    Putting Hope for Success at the same cooldown as everything else would definitely be OP. With very rare exceptions, the melee and ranged power is not going to net you more overall damage.

    If you're close enough to heal the person (...which is the primary role of this tree), you're close enough to apply these buffs. Yes, there will be times that they're blocked or out of range; that's also true of healing.

    Quote Originally Posted by PsychoBlonde View Post
    I'd suggest putting some FUNCTIONAL aggro-management in the tree, also, because that would have the potential to be pretty unique, like maybe have the ranged/melee power one also cause the target get a Hate Bomb of some kind that draws enemies to them. I'd suggest doing a Dodge buff that would have an "aggro be gone" effect.

    Exerting hefty control over who gets aggro would be really unique and is MUCH NEEDED.
    An interesting thought, though we have concerns about placing an individual's aggro management decisions in the hands of another player; we'll talk about that notion on our end, though, as it could lead to some interesting things.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cantor View Post
    The only really good one is a T5 with a 12 second duration and a 60 cooldown. They should all be that strong and have full up time. You are basically giving up and entire party member for it, because you won't be doing anything else.
    Healing would be the "anything else" they're doing, ideally. We're playing with the durations and cooldowns of the Hope buffs internally. The current 6-second cooldown, 12-second uptime plays pretty well when your party doesn't need healing at all, but when you start needing healing they go by the wayside a little TOO fast - We're aiming for the sweet spot, where in most content you can keep buffs up on 1-3 people between heals.

    Quote Originally Posted by jakeelala View Post
    If you really think of this as a buff, it's incrementally increasing ONE party members DPS for 20% of the time. Even in a 6 person group that's not a whole lot. In a raid, marginally, it's really a very small buff to overall party DPS. This should be castable on about half your party members at least at the same interval. So make it's cooldown lower or just let it affect up to 6 people per cast with the same cooldown. Then this would be worthy of T5 and have some value. This would have great syngery with Consecration and standing toe to toe in fights.
    Interesting, but definitely too strong once you get several Favored Souls chaining this ability.

    Quote Originally Posted by bbqzor View Post
    A Cone Heal for (20/30) hp is basically pointless, even with scaling. At level 3 when you get this and 100 spell power, it heals for 12. At 1000 positive spell power with epic levels, this heals for 330. A heal scaling from 12 to 330 at its extremes isn't relevant. This ability is basically used for powering up Beacon effects.
    With a decent amount of Spell Crit and my party's healing amp, this was overhealing most of the party and getting the party tank between half and 2/3 healing every cast in low-mid skull Legendary Reapers. For 2SP and a 6-second cooldown, it kept the entire party alive through certain fights.

    Quote Originally Posted by bbqzor View Post
    A Healing Amp / Faerie Fire Cone is actually pretty unique and thematic. Question, is there a save/SR check on the FF (assume yes and no like the spell). This ability is going to help a FVS group-heal the party in front of them better, provided the animation is fast. With a 12s duration, you will have to recast this every 2-3 heals, and as difficulty increases that starts to become impossible (meaning you could lead with this at the start of a fight but not maintain it).
    I'll double-check, but I believe it's no save and no Spell Resistance at the moment. This is cast whenever you cast the Beacons, which are the same cast time as Cone of Cold and Quickenable. In practice, I very often stood behind the party as they fought things in a doorway, hitting them with Beacon of Grace - Healing them and lighting up enemies at the same time. It was up 100% of the time during those fights, as I was firing Beacon of Grace pretty frequently.

    Quote Originally Posted by bbqzor View Post
    Question, Panacea already heals; is the 5/lvl in addition or in place of the base panacea? This looks to be a status cure Cone, which is also nice and thematic.

    Suggestion: Add Remove Paralysis and Bless to the list of buffs cast. Remove Paralysis so that this can also cure Slow and Ghoul Touch without negating the need for something like Break Enchantment or Greater Restoration. Bless so that it removes Bane, and adds a (potential) small buff for people not needing Cures. All of those spells are low enough and peripheral enough that including them here isn't going to break anything, and will make this broad enough to use, rather than reducing it to a tiny heal / lesser resto pot replacement.
    I'll clarify in the text that it's just the condition/penalty removal portion of Panacea. I like the suggestion here, I'll talk it over with the others.

    Quote Originally Posted by bbqzor View Post
    While a cool name, getting this at 18 is a bit late. The range of 61/85 temp hp is too tiny as well; 60 temp hp at lv18 is maybe one hit, 85 at lv30 is no go. Also, having Leap trigger this is going to be akward gameplay. If you are using wings to escape being clobbered, temp hp this low won't help. If you are using wings to get nearer to the party, no one will be around to get the buff. As the entire class encourages hanging back and watching the party fight in front of you, so you can use Cone abilities, starting or ending wings near the party is tough. Starting at them youd have to turn around and aim backwards, or risk running into the mobs before them on point. Starting behind them, youd wind up alongside them and unable to get anyone in a cone. Tough to use.

    Suggestion: As I suggested above, a temp hp buff is a good idea, but a cone to use during leveling as a progressive mechanic with better hp values makes a ton more sense. Gaining it this late, with those values, on a positional ability is bad. But what would be not-bad that late on a positional ability would be something like a Holy Smite/Holy Aura combination. Pick one based on alignment/deity, as this tree has literally nothing utilizing the deity choices. Then debuff/attack mobs, and buff/protect the party. That way its useful both coming and going. And helps by adding spells to the FVS narrow spell list indirectly (having a 'free' Holy Aura buff slot will help the support role, as FVS will have a tough time fitting everything into their choices, and buffs/cures/etc somewhat rely on having the right tool for the job on hand).
    It's a fairly large AOE that goes off when you end the leap - You'd use it to leap toward the party rather than escape danger. It's worked pretty well in playtesting so far, getting me in range of allies to follow up with a Beacon. The Temp HP were a bit on the low side, we'll be revisiting that scaling.

    Quote Originally Posted by bbqzor View Post
    Pretty standard T1 stuff. I like the Good Hope SLA to cure Curshing Despair and add damage (if no bard around). I also like seeing mana available early on for FVS (question, do they receive double or are the values already doubled).
    I believe they receive double what's listed.

    Quote Originally Posted by bbqzor View Post
    Suggestions: Without feeling Close Wounds via playtest, and seeing how practical Mights Reward is in practice, hard to gauge. I expect both will be under powered significantly; tying up your actual animations to spam heal one target is normally inadvisable, and while Mights Reward compares fairly against an action boost, it compares poorly to Divine Might relative to Divine Mights impact on Melee.
    That's fair. Divine Might is, frankly, overpowered for a Tier 1 ability.

    Quote Originally Posted by bbqzor View Post
    Spamming 2-3 of those cycling around leaves no time for healing or buffing or 'supporting', and turning your character into one permanent action boost on someone else is a lesser contribution than acting yourself. I really feel that with the changes that would go away some, and permit using them between heals or buffs, and let this direction be a good build choice.

    Thanks.
    You're not wrong about that on the current timing, as I said we're working on it now that the tree is implemented and playtesting is in progress.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lanadazia View Post
    any chance we could get extend on the hope buffs?
    also making extend way more viable. i think this would fit well on a buff- focused character, while also opening up some space to do something else, but cycling through hope buffs all the time.
    the buffs indeed are strong, but with just 12 seconds they also just let you have one decision - completely opt into this playstyle and do almost nothing else - or abandon it completely.

    the mini-buff-game the cleric can play right now is a little more intuitive. you heal someone - they get some prr

    weaker persistent bonuses, like the bards with their aura are up constantly, but its actually pretty lame. you don't feel like you contribute much, even tho you do, by just standing there.
    As mentioned above, our hope (heh) is that we can get the timers and durations right such that in most difficulties, you can keep these buffs up on a couple of people between healing. Sometimes you'll be in a bit over your heads and need so much healing that you can't keep them up constantly, which is fine.


    Quote Originally Posted by MasterKernel View Post
    Death Ward SLA ? Why would somebody want to take it ?

    Raise Dead SLA ? Probably, useless too.
    These SLAs seem to be pretty unpopular so far. They were mainly there to open up spell slots, provide the spells to people with not enough Favored Soul levels to take them normally, to provide greater access to players who don't like scrolling as part of their playstyle (there are more than you'd think), and to provide a Quicken-able version that frees up inventory slots currently held by scrolls but it's not a big deal on our end to replace them if they're unwanted. If you're a person who does want these, this would be the time to speak up. (There are a few of you in this thread already, I do see you).

    Quote Originally Posted by SirValentine View Post
    Nothing against the ability, but this name sounds dumb.
    We agree. What would people want to see it be called?

    Quote Originally Posted by SirValentine View Post
    So nothing for RS or DD anytime soon?
    Nothing to announce on that front, sorry.

    Quote Originally Posted by Selvera View Post
    Core 4: So this scales with 100% spellpower but Beacon of Grace just scales with "spellpower"? Is grace also 100% or is it more/less? Anyways; this appears to be just a better version of Beacon of Grace with a longer cooldown and higher mana cost. Giving it a different AoE might make it cool/unique enough to feel different. Or maybe that would just annoy people trying to heal organized groups with a beacon of hope.
    100% is the normal rate at which spells scale with Spell Power. We'll clean up the text.

    BoH is essentially a stronger BoG with a longer cooldown/higher Mana cost, but also purges a bunch of effects - As above, we might expand that list.

    Quote Originally Posted by Selvera View Post
    Hope for Inspiration: I can't think of another sacred bonus to skills off the top of my head. Maybe there's something I'm forgetting right now; but this seems like a solid "inspire your trapper" buff. I don't think the +2 sneak attack damage for allies with scion of ethereal plain is really that useful, nor is the up to +7 spellpower you can grant allies; but if the +traps means the difference between blowing a box and a 1+ success, it's worth it.
    We'd definitely consider "Buffing the Trapper" one of the best uses of this skill.


    Quote Originally Posted by karatemack View Post
    Hope for Protection is woefully under-powered compared to the bonus granted by the Protection Domain. Protection Domain is twice the level and lasts for 20 seconds. Also, do those stack? If so... parties with a cleric and a FvS can boost PRR/MRR by 60.
    This ability is not meant to be analogous to the Protection Domain ability. It does stack. We could potentially make this stronger if it didn't. Food for thought.

    Quote Originally Posted by karatemack View Post
    Hope for Success doesn't belong here. It belongs in War Soul... and it should be a +2 bonus... and should be restricted to the favored weapon only.
    That's a very different ability than what's presented here.

    Quote Originally Posted by Xyfiel View Post
    To be fair the SLA is only one aspect of the capstone. It is a nice bonus but by no means is it the main power of the capstone. Adding up to 50% to the Hope/Beacon abilities, +3 positive caster level(Level 18 heals), and +4 stat is better than most capstones.
    Agreed; the SLA might carry the name, but it's not the best thing in this capstone.
    Last edited by Steelstar; 06-11-2018 at 10:09 AM. Reason: left in a quote block with no response. Fixed! Back to coffee.
    We don't only build for the builds that exist.
    We don't only build for the builds that are good right now.

    The fact that some changes are necessary is not diminished by the fact that other necessary changes have not happened yet.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Steelstar View Post
    These SLAs seem to be pretty unpopular so far. They were mainly there to open up spell slots, provide the spells to people with not enough Favored Soul levels to take them normally, to provide greater access to players who don't like scrolling as part of their playstyle (there are more than you'd think), and to provide a Quicken-able version that frees up inventory slots currently held by scrolls but it's not a big deal on our end to replace them if they're unwanted. If you're a person who does want these, this would be the time to speak up. (There are a few of you in this thread already, I do see you).
    Yes, I very much want a Death Ward SLA at the 4th tier to both free up a spell slot and to be accessible to splashes with only 4 to 7 levels of FVS

    I very much value the Resurrection SLA from Unyielding Sentinel on my melee's for use during raids - if nothing else, for the convenience of not having to equip a scroll (on a melee that may have mediocre UMD) and then re-equip my weapon

    I would like the raise dead SLA for the same reasons and can see my self using this on certain multi-class melee builds

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    It seems like only very strange multiclass melees would give up tier 5 enhancements in a combat or tanking tree for that Raise Dead. If you bumped it down to tier 4, that would make it a nice option for those builds (and would actually allow it to show up early enough to matter on even a pure FvS). But maybe that's too accessible? I would remove it from tier 5 anyway, whether or not you dump it entirely.

    I don't mind the Death Ward SLA, since it frees up a level 4 spell slot, although Freedom of Movement would be a bit nicer since there's no Mass version of that one.
    Last edited by GotSomeQuestions; 06-11-2018 at 11:47 AM.

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    Death ward sla as t4 is ok, But a 10% raise sla as t5 is very bad.

    A 10% raise on a 5 min cooldown that bypass deathtimer would be
    Awesome and hum fun though! ;-)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Steelstar View Post
    Wall of Healing: Cost: 30 Spell Points. Create a wall that persists for 30 seconds. Allies and Undead in the wall take a Cure Moderate Wounds spell every few seconds. 60 second cooldown.
    Quote Originally Posted by SirValentine View Post
    Nothing against the ability, but this name sounds dumb.
    Quote Originally Posted by Steelstar View Post
    We agree. What would people want to see it be called?
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