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  1. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tilomere View Post
    Maybe your build,
    No, pretty much every build. With SWF, you have higher stat modifiers on your damage and you'll be attacking about 25% more often in the level range we're talking about. The weapons themselves will have significantly better basic damage profiles as well. Lastly, you'll almost certainly be using a better stat to deal damage because you can use your casting stat for damage modifier - which you can't with thrown weapons.

    If you either break down the math behind what you're doing or you objectively measure your dps, you'll find the same.

    still have my share of the kill meter
    Kill count has very little to do with dps or the effectiveness you bring to a group.

  2. #42
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    Ok, so I figured out why the elemental domain turn undead on elementals doesn't work well.

    Elementals have CRs roughly equal to dungeon level in heroics, and hit die equal to twice that (from using a warlock testing with soul gem spells).

    So you need some beastly turning power, which this build doesn't have.

    ---------------------------------
    Oh, I tested this as well in legendary R4 near cap as I was leveling. I couldn't land BoGW on the wolves in Fresh Baked Dreams, and all the plants and constructs can't be CCd, but everything else wasn't too bad. Giant type mobs in reaper at level GH are difficult to fort DC cast on as well.

    Being underlevel and lacking RL gear probably contributed to that. In Castle RL our warlock went afk for most of the dungeon, and I fell into a trap and died at the portrait fight, jibbered to run back and died again, but other than that, did ok. The deaths were my fault for standing in the wrong spot. It's not ideal to group for legendary reaper with no healer, no tank, have the only other DC caster go afk, and be on a squishier melee build, but it still works.



    I also ran this a level earlier on reaper, and interestingly enough, did better than the max level furythrower with Spite, since undead/ghosts didn't bleed.



    Protip: the large shadows with the stacking HP curse are are evil outsiders, not undead, so just stunlock them.
    Last edited by Tilomere; 07-07-2018 at 01:02 AM.

  3. #43
    Community Member Maelodic's Avatar
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    Have you tried using this build with Beacon of Night/Day near endgame? That's 15 extra melee power, 10% doublestrike and 10% offhand doublestrike. And the weapons hit hard, and can get pulverizer'd. Sounds pretty awesome.
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  4. #44
    Community Member Vish's Avatar
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    I am running a heroic cleric now
    And been trying to use soundburst,
    But I find it very unreliable
    It doesn't hit tgts, goes off in wrong place,
    And I generally find it not useful

    What are the tricks to proper soundburst?
    Is it a hard tgt option?
    Because when you're getting rushed, that's gonna be extra hard.
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  5. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maelodic View Post
    Have you tried using this build with Beacon of Night/Day near endgame? That's 15 extra melee power, 10% doublestrike and 10% offhand doublestrike. And the weapons hit hard, and can get pulverizer'd. Sounds pretty awesome.
    If you redo this build as a charisma casting FvS soundburst with divine might strength for attack/dmg you can use any weapon. I only went wisdom based because I was on an Aasimar Scourge, for flavor. And some beast mode full healing hands even in reaper. And mass frog. Ribbit! Oh right, and the weapons don't take sentience so I didn't have to farm up a SW set. Oh, and because the weapons don't take long to farm at all. I'll put a note in OP about charisma casting with any weapon instead.

    I do the charisma casting/divine might/any weapon on the paladin version. I think overall it is superior to wisdom casting, unless you are going into epics for mass frog on an Aasimar.

    Quote Originally Posted by Vish View Post
    What are the tricks to proper soundburst?
    Is it a hard tgt option?
    Because when you're getting rushed, that's gonna be extra hard.
    Always quicken.
    If you hard target, it casts centered on your hard target.

    If you soft target, it casts centered on your cursor intersection with the ground.

    Aim for the middle of the ground where mobs are as you run up to them.

    Or cast one on the front mobs, run to the back line where the casters are cast a second one on them, then cast a third when melee unstun and run to casters.

    Or hit intimidate (charisma version), then stun the mob right in front of you, and the AoE will hit everything around you. I do this all the time on paladin version.
    Last edited by Tilomere; 07-06-2018 at 08:56 PM.

  6. #46
    Community Member Shadow_Jumper's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tilomere View Post

    How many times did you hear that melee suck in reaper? I heard it enough to make melee builds for reaper to help people out, not abuse power creep.
    From people who are not experienced in mid-high skulls? A lot

    From people that actually play that difficulty? Never.
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  7. #47
    Community Member barecm's Avatar
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    Here is the deal with high level reapers. If you cannot do some form of crowd control, you will not be successful. I play a ranged ranger that is speced for paralyze/fear arrows despite other forms of ranged combat (including ranged power longbow builds) that deal more damage. Why? So I can control reaper level content. So, despite some folks poking holes in this, it is just another way of doing what needs to be done to get through high level reapers. Casters use some form of charms / instakill combos. Why not a soundburst stun?
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  8. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by barecm View Post
    Casters use some form of charms / instakill combos. Why not a soundburst stun?
    Because that's the casters job. A DPS's job is to do damage, that 3 level splash loses significant damage over pure.

  9. #49
    Community Member Shadow_Jumper's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by barecm View Post
    Here is the deal with high level reapers. If you cannot do some form of crowd control, you will not be successful. I play a ranged ranger that is speced for paralyze/fear arrows despite other forms of ranged combat (including ranged power longbow builds) that deal more damage. Why? So I can control reaper level content. So, despite some folks poking holes in this, it is just another way of doing what needs to be done to get through high level reapers. Casters use some form of charms / instakill combos. Why not a soundburst stun?
    Yes. It’s useful to have some form of cc on any build. But taking 3 levels of a caster class on a DPS toon? That’s insanity. Focus on weapon procs (Flow, LGS Ice), enhancements (Tomb of Jade), feats (Dire Charge, Stunning Blow, Trip), or twists (Balanced Attacks) as forms of CC.

    A Dire Charge, with Dance of Death, Flow, and Balanced Attacks going is going to be way better CC than a single Soundburst.

    Leave the mass CC to the builds best suited to it. Focus on what a DPS build should be doing: Damage.

    *Second Edit*: Looking back at it the split is what? 12 Ranger, 5 Cleric, 2 FVS? That’s a lot of caster levels for a non DPS build.
    Last edited by Shadow_Jumper; 07-09-2018 at 09:19 AM.
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  10. #50
    Community Member barecm's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kaboom2112 View Post
    Because that's the casters job. A DPS's job is to do damage, that 3 level splash loses significant damage over pure.
    My point is, if it works (which apparently it does for him) then what is the issue? I play a ranger with no caster levels and do cc. Does that mean my paralyzing arrows are less viable than other forms simply because I am not a pure caster?
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  11. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by barecm View Post
    My point is, if it works (which apparently it does for him) then what is the issue?
    Bad advice needs to be called out. People who don't know better might follow it. Not calling it out if how we have kids eating Tide Pods.

    Quote Originally Posted by barecm View Post
    I play a ranger with no caster levels and do cc. Does that mean my paralyzing arrows are less viable than other forms simply because I am not a pure caster?
    Your arrows are viable. They are not optimal.

    Optimal CC makes the targets helpless or gets them fighting on your side.

  12. #52
    Community Member HungarianRhapsody's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kaboom2112 View Post
    Because that's the casters job. A DPS's job is to do damage, that 3 level splash loses significant damage over pure.
    If you're successfully locking down the enemies, then you ARE the caster doing the caster's job. AND you're the DPS as well. And there's a good chance that you're an off-healer too.

    To me, this looks like a caster that also does much more single target DPS than most other casters. If he has the DC and Spell Penetration to make this work, then go for it!
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  13. #53
    Community Member barecm's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kaboom2112 View Post
    Bad advice needs to be called out. People who don't know better might follow it. Not calling it out if how we have kids eating Tide Pods.



    Your arrows are viable. They are not optimal.

    Optimal CC makes the targets helpless or gets them fighting on your side.
    Maybe optimal depending on criteria. I can paralyze no fail at any level of reaper; and a whole string of them with IPS... not just a small circle AOE. I can also pin to get helpless. I can remove fom with dispelling arrow. All of this without using sp. So, the term optimal is subjective. Problems for both to mobs that are immune to cc.
    Last edited by barecm; 07-09-2018 at 09:45 AM.
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  14. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by HungarianRhapsody View Post
    If you're successfully locking down the enemies, then you ARE the caster doing the caster's job. AND you're the DPS as well. And there's a good chance that you're an off-healer too.

    To me, this looks like a caster that also does much more single target DPS than most other casters. If he has the DC and Spell Penetration to make this work, then go for it!
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  15. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by barecm View Post
    Maybe optimal depending on criteria. I can paralyze no fail at any level of reaper; and a whole string of them with IPS... not just a small circle AOE. I can also pin to get helpless. I can remove fom with dispelling arrow. All of this without using sp. So, the term optimal is subjective. Problems for both to mobs that are immune to cc.
    Nice. Have you messed around with a Legendary GS Ice weapon yet?

  16. #56
    Community Member barecm's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kaboom2112 View Post
    Nice. Have you messed around with a Legendary GS Ice weapon yet?
    No, but will use LGS Salt to slow everything that I cannot paralyze. Issue with that bow is that it does not work with IPS, so much less effective. I will have to try out ice, but is it any different than the regular GS ice? I have that one made but have not use in a while as well as the frozen tunic.
    Last edited by barecm; 07-09-2018 at 10:47 AM.
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  17. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by barecm View Post
    Maybe optimal depending on criteria. I can paralyze no fail at any level of reaper; and a whole string of them with IPS... not just a small circle AOE. I can also pin to get helpless. I can remove fom with dispelling arrow. All of this without using sp. So, the term optimal is subjective. Problems for both to mobs that are immune to cc.
    In the same amount of time you line up a a horde of 10+ mobs, paralyze half of them with IPS then lock down the stragglers that IPS missed, use Pin, etc., an optimal high-skull reaper group with 1 optimal CC caster and 3-4 min/maxed DPS toons has already killed them all and is halfway through the next batch of mobs.

    Does your way work? Sure. Is it optimal? No, not under any but the most unusual and one-off scenarios.

    As mentioned in another recent thread, reaper optimized, min/max melee dps builds are running almost exclusively in LD and are optimized for boosts and helpless damage. If your CC doesn't enable helpless damage, it's not optimal for high-skull reaper, period.

    To put it another way, an optimal group of reaper-spec DPS builds mows through trash mobs so quickly that CC casters aren't needed on anything under 4-5 skull. Dire charge, stunning blows, etc. are more than enough and taking those abilities doesn't require a significant net DPS loss unlike things you are describing. Doing mid-skull runs nearly at run-speed is fun, but you don't do that with IPS based CC, Pin, etc. You do it with AoE CC, stuns and raw DPS.

  18. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shadow_Jumper View Post
    Leave the mass CC to the builds best suited to it. Focus on what a DPS build should be doing: Damage.
    Quote Originally Posted by LT218 View Post
    To put it another way, an optimal group of reaper-spec DPS builds

    I play on the default server. Other than warlocks doing racials, Tilo is generally the only caster in the group capable of landing spells in reaper. Generally over half of the reaper group can't contribute more than they scale the dungeon, and if Tilo doesn't bring CC, there won't be any. It's normal to need to bring basically all of the groups healing, tanking, CC, and DPS, or to be half of it with a warlock.

    As a typical example, in the reaper Castle Ravenloft two groups above we only had a healer for one group, and a CC caster (that was afk for most of the dungeon) for the other group. Only 4 of ten people in the two groups killed more mobs than they scaled the dungeon.
    Last edited by Tilomere; 07-09-2018 at 03:01 PM.

  19. #59
    Community Member Shadow_Jumper's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tilomere View Post
    What server are you finding these groups on?
    I play on Ghallanda.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tilomere View Post
    I play on the default server. Other than warlocks doing racials, Tilo is generally the only caster in the group capable of landing spells in reaper. Generally over half of the reaper group can't contribute more than they scale the dungeon, and if Tilo doesn't bring CC, there won't be any. It's normal to need to bring basically all of the groups healing, tanking, CC, and DPS.
    Then play a true CC wizard. And tell people in your static group or guild, or people that you run with a lot to play DPS on their builds. Or seek out players who need good cc support. If you are a good CC wizard soon they will start asking you.

    Or if you want to play the dps role, then find someone who is a good CC caster. It may take a while, and you may need to teach some people, but eventually it will happen.

    At that point you have a solid dps/cc duo. If you want to push the envelope even more, start finding good healers to run with. And other good, optimized DPS builds to static group with.

    Then finally, if you don’t have one already, find someone who plays a capable tank. There’s usually a few hanging around. They would love to join a static group that at that point has heals/cc/dps covered.


    If building a static group/guild from the ground up is too tall (trust me I understand, it’s not easy at all), then maybe find which role you enjoy playing the most, out of cc/heals/tank/dps, then maximize your skill at the class, and seek out those who already have/are trying to build their own static groups. If you are capable, then they will welcome you.
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  20. #60
    Community Member barecm's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LT218 View Post
    In the same amount of time you line up a a horde of 10+ mobs, paralyze half of them with IPS then lock down the stragglers that IPS missed, use Pin, etc., an optimal high-skull reaper group with 1 optimal CC caster and 3-4 min/maxed DPS toons has already killed them all and is halfway through the next batch of mobs.
    You probably have never run with me then if that is what you think.
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