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Thread: DDO Compendium

  1. #1
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    Default DDO Compendium

    Heya DDO'ers,

    Numerous DDO players that regularly hang out in the DDO Discord have decided to start up the DDO Compendium.

    The DDO Compendium is in fact a new wiki for Dungeons & Dragons Online. Veterans and new players alike have started this new venture so that we can provide an updated resource for everyone playing Dungeons & Dragons Online. With a focus on current and accurate information it is our mission to provide a consistent, reliable, high quality wiki experience.


    We encourage wiki editors, both novice and experienced, to join in editing here. There's a lot of work that needs to be done to get it up to par and we can't do it alone. The only stipulation that we ask is that there is no copy/paste from pre-existing sources without the original authors permission. Everything else edited into and uploaded to the Compendium should be original works/images by the person uploading/editing.

    So, you may be wondering as to the "Why? this was started.

    The idea behind the Compendium is to have a mobile first platform that is easy to edit for both new and advanced wiki editors. THe skin is built using Twitter's Bootstrap framework for reactive web layouts. Adding content is as easy as (in most cases) using a single template (there is a list of common templates available in the "Compendium" drop-down menu). There are also clear cut policies and guidelines in place to help all editors understand what they can and can't do on the Compendium (it's not very restrictive, but the policies/guidelines are there for reference in case an issue arises).

    All DDO players are encouraged to come to the Compendium and contribute. There's still a lot of information that needs to be added. Right now, the basic framework is in place to allow editors to begin contributing. If you wish to join in the discussion to help mold and shape the Compendium, feel free to join the Compendium's Discord server: https://discord.gg/f5aJYmW

    Lastly, the link for the Compendium is: https://ddocompendium.com


  2. #2
    Community Member MrTrolol's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ague View Post
    Heya DDO'ers,

    Numerous DDO players that regularly hang out in the DDO Discord have decided to start up the DDO Compendium.

    The DDO Compendium is in fact a new wiki for Dungeons & Dragons Online. Veterans and new players alike have started this new venture so that we can provide an updated resource for everyone playing Dungeons & Dragons Online. With a focus on current and accurate information it is our mission to provide a consistent, reliable, high quality wiki experience.


    We encourage wiki editors, both novice and experienced, to join in editing here. There's a lot of work that needs to be done to get it up to par and we can't do it alone. The only stipulation that we ask is that there is no copy/paste from pre-existing sources without the original authors permission. Everything else edited into and uploaded to the Compendium should be original works/images by the person uploading/editing.

    So, you may be wondering as to the "Why? this was started.

    The idea behind the Compendium is to have a mobile first platform that is easy to edit for both new and advanced wiki editors. THe skin is built using Twitter's Bootstrap framework for reactive web layouts. Adding content is as easy as (in most cases) using a single template (there is a list of common templates available in the "Compendium" drop-down menu). There are also clear cut policies and guidelines in place to help all editors understand what they can and can't do on the Compendium (it's not very restrictive, but the policies/guidelines are there for reference in case an issue arises).

    All DDO players are encouraged to come to the Compendium and contribute. There's still a lot of information that needs to be added. Right now, the basic framework is in place to allow editors to begin contributing. If you wish to join in the discussion to help mold and shape the Compendium, feel free to join the Compendium's Discord server: https://discord.gg/f5aJYmW

    Lastly, the link for the Compendium is: https://ddocompendium.com
    This sounds like it will be a wondeful thing GL

  3. #3
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    Alright. So I have a lot to say and I don't know where to begin. (there's a TL;DR at the end, but you will miss all the reasoning and examples)

    I will start with the current wiki. The current wiki has some problems: The owner is not very active and hardly notices what is going on in the wiki. It's unclear if he plays the game at all to be able to have an opinion on wiki matters. This means that the wiki software is outdated, the wiki crashes are not immediately handled, the wiki database/resources do not get managed making the wiki slower and bigger. It also means that the owner has allowed a certain someone to practically own the wiki either because he doesn't care what happens to the wiki or because he truly believes that certain someone is beneficial for the wiki. Currently, it is pretty hard for a general user to change a layout, a category or how the templates work in the wiki, while one person changes how things work about every week and leaves the change half-way.

    However, those are not all the issues with the current wiki. A major problem is that the wiki is old enough to have had several generations of editors pass through it. Every generation wanted to do things in a certain way with the tools available at the time. This meant that often projects were abandoned with half the pages being in one category/template structure and half the pages being in another category/template structure. Also, as more and more information was added to the wiki, changing how things work meant that you had to retroactively change all the pages up to that point. This is doable if you have a healthy wiki population, but most regular users edited new pages (new additions to the game) leaving only a dozen editors to perform the change (of which, half probably disagreed with the change to begin with).

    This leaves us with the wiki we have now. The information (for example, a quest's xp) is duplicated and displayed in dozens of pages. If suddenly that information changes, an editor would need to find that information everywhere on the wiki and update it. Needless to say this can't and doesn't happen. Not even on Wikipedia that has so many editors and maintainers working on it. I mention wikipedia, but in a DDO wiki this problem is multiplied due to the fact that you need to make compact lists and tables with information gathered from multiple pages.

    Now let's move to the new wiki. After reading the discord chat (most of it, not all) and checking out how the templates and some pages work, I don't see how these problems are solved. You mention that the wiki will be user friendly and easy to edit. However, the use of a quest template and the nesting of other templates (ex. favor template -by the way, it shouldn't show casual value for a raid) is already more complicated than the current wiki.

    The problem I mentioned above about duplication of data can be somewhat solved by installing DPL or semanticwiki extensions that perform database queries. However, having worked on DPL for the last 5 months on the current wiki, I can tell you that to be able to collect data from pages and then display them in tables (ex. https://ddocompendium.com/w/Quests_by_Level and https://ddocompendium.com/w/Quests - You can see that one page will be always up to date, while the other will need updating), you will need strict rules about how that data is entered in the first place. For example: What if you wanted to display the flagging that each raid needs (btw, no flagging parameter in quest template) and you found out that each quest page had flagging formatted differently? One would have level 3 headers with a big article (Shroud?), one would be empty, other would say no flagging, other would have a list of quests. So how would you display that information if you didn't restrict how users could use the flagging parameter?

    The current wiki has complicated templates because (setting bad coding aside) it needs to restrict the format of the information the user provides in order to display that information in multiple places in order to require only 1 or 2 updates to update this information everywhere. I don't disagree that editor interaction could be made easier if you had dropdown lists or proper template documentation/proper template directory (so an editor could find what and how to use it).

    What about the data accumulated over the years in ddowiki? Are you saying that you will ever get that kind of coverage of content (NPC dialogue, Historic quests, content history, quest guides, class guides, images, etc.)? I don't really believe that the only reason the current wiki is not being updated is because of the social issue. It's also because editors get bored updating old content. I don't see how the new wiki will get all the editors to recreate all this content when players have stopped caring about a lot of stuff.

    TL;DR: Recently I've been saying to myself "Darn, it's so hard to make things work in this wiki. We need a new wiki without this attitude". However, I realize that a new wiki would have the same issues with the old wiki mainly due to the lack of manpower and the nature of the game (DDO). So, I see 2 paths ahead of me: 1. Make something that is NOT a wiki. Make a proper database tailored for DDO instead of trying to hack the wiki software so that things work. 2. Keep trying to improve the current wiki till either the problems go away or you get banned for trying. I will eventually work on 1 when time allows (if DDO is still alive), but currently on the 2nd path. I will however keep an eye on the new wiki in case I see something that will work.
    My main server is Khyber. Have toons in almost every server for favor purposes. The Faltouts

  4. #4
    Community Member Greantun's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Faltout View Post
    TL;DR: Recently I've been saying to myself "Darn, it's so hard to make things work in this wiki. We need a new wiki without this attitude". However, I realize that a new wiki would have the same issues with the old wiki mainly due to the lack of manpower and the nature of the game (DDO). So, I see 2 paths ahead of me: 1. Make something that is NOT a wiki. Make a proper database tailored for DDO instead of trying to hack the wiki software so that things work. 2. Keep trying to improve the current wiki till either the problems go away or you get banned for trying. I will eventually work on 1 when time allows (if DDO is still alive), but currently on the 2nd path. I will however keep an eye on the new wiki in case I see something that will work.
    I want to comment on a couple things. First off, I do agree with you that a proper website with database queries, dropdowns, etc would be better, but it would be a major undertaking. Even being a developer for 30+ years and I wouldn't want to take that on.

    So, I few things about the site
    * One of the major things that we are doing with this wiki is making it reactive. That means using media queries in the CSS to make the page look good on a small form factor, mainly devices.
    * The "Quest By Level" page was created during the initial trials, and I am not sure that will continue. Using the full list with it both sortable and filterable seems much better. Even if we did keep it, it would be changed to use DPL as well.
    * I agree that templates in templates is not the best solution, but, as you stated, it is really the only solution when using a wiki.
    * There is still much to be done, and many decisions to be made. Putting this out there early like we did will allow the crowd-sourcing to help in creating content.
    * I had just been thinking about the quest vs raid thing today. We don't currently know if a quest is a raid or not, so decisions on that have to be made yet.

    Finally - and this is a big one for me - I have not heard of any plan to put advertisements on the site. While I understand the need in some cases, the ads on the existing wiki bug me to no end. They are everywhere, on all pages, and sometimes do things I don't want. They also almost always advertise other video games. Why, if we are promoting DDO, would we ever want to put up ads for other games?

    Anyway, I certainly appreciate the feedback, and your opinion on the new site, but will continue working on it anyway.

  5. #5
    YourDDO Creator
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    Quote Originally Posted by Faltout View Post
    TL;DR: Recently I've been saying to myself "Darn, it's so hard to make things work in this wiki. We need a new wiki without this attitude". However, I realize that a new wiki would have the same issues with the old wiki mainly due to the lack of manpower and the nature of the game (DDO). So, I see 2 paths ahead of me: 1. Make something that is NOT a wiki. Make a proper database tailored for DDO instead of trying to hack the wiki software so that things work. 2. Keep trying to improve the current wiki till either the problems go away or you get banned for trying. I will eventually work on 1 when time allows (if DDO is still alive), but currently on the 2nd path. I will however keep an eye on the new wiki in case I see something that will work.
    Thanks for all the great feedback! The Compendium is still very much in an infancy state and the past couple months things have been worked in many different ways trying to see what is going to work the best (which is why you see a quest listing which needs updating and one that doesn't), but once things smooth out and as more content is added, the pages that are no longer relevant are going to be removed.

    But in your post you do have some valid concerns, and these concerns are on the radar to be addressed as they are reached. Sadly, though, having nested templates is almost a necessity in a wiki related to a game. We strive to make those templates as transparent and easy to find for the editor as possible. You're welcome to offer ideas and suggestions as to how to streamline this facet of the editing process, and every step possible will be taken to make it as simple and easy to use as possible.


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