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Thread: Shield options

  1. #1
    Community Member mobrien316's Avatar
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    Default Shield options

    I currently have a crafted shield for my paladin; the shield has Combat Mastery, Insightful Combat Mastery, and Insightful Intimidate on it. I've found my Trip and Stun attempts work pretty well most of the time, including in Reaper.

    I have considered crafting a shield with Combat Mastery, Shield Spikes, and Insightful Intimidate on it. Do shield bashes ever do enough damage to be worth it? At level 16 it would be 4d6 shield spike damage, which doesn't seem tremendous. Is it better to have the extra boost to Trip and Stun?


    Any help would be appreciated.
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    Community Member redoubt's Avatar
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    Vanguard has a lot of boosts for shields, but at the same time i'd make sure I had as much bonus to stun and trip as I could. If you can slot the CM elsewhere and put damage on the shield, then sure. Otherwise keep the DCs up.
    Should a reaper see me? I think Death itself should have to make a spot check when I'm rolling up behind him. -- Krimsonrane

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    Community Member Niminae's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by redoubt View Post
    Vanguard has a lot of boosts for shields, but at the same time i'd make sure I had as much bonus to stun and trip as I could. If you can slot the CM elsewhere and put damage on the shield, then sure. Otherwise keep the DCs up.
    Vanguard has been neutered:

    Quote Originally Posted by Update 38.1
    Fixed an issue where Vanguard's Shield Champion was proc'ing 50% of the time. We have also increased the proc rate from its earlier 5% to 10%.
    So a 50% proc was reduced, not increased, from 50% to 10%.

    And exactly how many players were griping that melee builds which weren't tanky at all were dominating the game? Exactly how much of the meta was dominated by this build? That would be none. And yet this change was deemed to be worthy of investing dev hours into to making it happen. Grats? How is reducing the number of viable builds, especially melee viable builds, a worthwhile change?

    I will forever fail to understand this dev team and their prerogatives...

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    Quote Originally Posted by mobrien316 View Post
    I have considered crafting a shield with Combat Mastery, Shield Spikes, and Insightful Intimidate on it. Do shield bashes ever do enough damage to be worth it? At level 16 it would be 4d6 shield spike damage, which doesn't seem tremendous. Is it better to have the extra boost to Trip and Stun?
    Quote Originally Posted by redoubt View Post
    Vanguard has a lot of boosts for shields, but at the same time i'd make sure I had as much bonus to stun and trip as I could. If you can slot the CM elsewhere and put damage on the shield, then sure. Otherwise keep the DCs up.
    Basically this - ideally put your combat mastery somewhere else to keep your tactics DCs, then rather than crafting a shield look for one of the named shields which often have expanded critical multipliers or much higher damage dice, they're way better than what you can possibly craft. By the time you get the top two cores of the vanguard tree and some of the newer epic shields you'll really notice your individual shield bashes removing huge chunks of the HP bar of your foes - definitely "worth it".

    Of course, if you're focused in knight of the chalice (or sacred defender) rather than vanguard and are just holding a shield, then yeah, put your combat mastery and whatever else there without worrying about the damage it does.


    Quote Originally Posted by Niminae View Post
    And exactly how many players were griping that melee builds which weren't tanky at all were dominating the game? Exactly how much of the meta was dominated by this build? That would be none. And yet this change was deemed to be worthy of investing dev hours into to making it happen. Grats? How is reducing the number of viable builds, especially melee viable builds, a worthwhile change?
    Vanguards aren't at the top of the meta, but they do have a fun playstyle, and are very accessible for a newer player (unlike various flavours of monk multiclass), with decent survivability and far better DPS than they're given credit for to go with it. I'd agree it wasn't highest priority as a fix, but I'm happy any time an ability does what it says in the description (even if they didn't fix a single thing but just rewrote the descriptions to say what all the abilities actually do right now that would be a great pass).
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    Community Member AbyssalMage's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elfishski View Post
    Vanguards aren't at the top of the meta, but they do have a fun playstyle, and are very accessible for a newer player (unlike various flavours of monk multiclass), with decent survivability and far better DPS than they're given credit for to go with it. I'd agree it wasn't highest priority as a fix, but I'm happy any time an ability does what it says in the description (even if they didn't fix a single thing but just rewrote the descriptions to say what all the abilities actually do right now that would be a great pass).
    I would say that their "fun playstyle" just got neutered as Niminae stated. S & B will be for "Top End" Reaper Fighters otherwise any other Fighter build will be better.

    Granted DDO is about having fun. So if you want to play S&B, go for it. Just make sure you have all of the facts about playing one. Vanguard is a "3% build."
    Quote Originally Posted by hp1055cm View Post
    They have been tweaking the game since I started and often I disagree with them. They focus on wrong stuff, over or under compensate and abandon too much stuff. Every once in awhile they get something right, if only temporarily.

  6. #6
    Community Member redoubt's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AbyssalMage View Post
    I would say that their "fun playstyle" just got neutered as Niminae stated. S & B will be for "Top End" Reaper Fighters otherwise any other Fighter build will be better.

    Granted DDO is about having fun. So if you want to play S&B, go for it. Just make sure you have all of the facts about playing one. Vanguard is a "3% build."
    Its been a year since I was doing paladin vanguard lives (did 5 or 6 of them in a row back then.)

    1. Are the auto shield bashes still capped at 1 per second?

    2. I'm only seeing 60% chance to shield bash. 40% in vanguard and 20% in imp shield bash. I can't remember if this has changed or not. I do remember there was more available than was worth taking due to the 1 per second cap.

    3. Assuming the cap is still there, then you get a free stun every 10 seconds (on average.) (Not as good as every 2 seconds for sure.)

    4. My real question about the shield builds would be why STR is the only tactical stat. Dwarven con builds or Charisma based paladin tanks are behind in the tactical DC area. (Unless there is a way to convert?)
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  7. #7
    Community Member Ralmeth's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Niminae View Post
    Vanguard has been neutered:



    So a 50% proc was reduced, not increased, from 50% to 10%.

    And exactly how many players were griping that melee builds which weren't tanky at all were dominating the game? Exactly how much of the meta was dominated by this build? That would be none. And yet this change was deemed to be worthy of investing dev hours into to making it happen. Grats? How is reducing the number of viable builds, especially melee viable builds, a worthwhile change?

    I will forever fail to understand this dev team and their prerogatives...
    I was definitely bummed about this, though to be fair I haven't bothered to play as a Vanguard Paladin since the previous round of Paladin nerfs. This change has removed the only good reason to go pure as a Paladin, IMHO.
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    Community Member lLockehart's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Niminae View Post
    Vanguard has been neutered:



    So a 50% proc was reduced, not increased, from 50% to 10%.

    And exactly how many players were griping that melee builds which weren't tanky at all were dominating the game? Exactly how much of the meta was dominated by this build? That would be none. And yet this change was deemed to be worthy of investing dev hours into to making it happen. Grats? How is reducing the number of viable builds, especially melee viable builds, a worthwhile change?

    I will forever fail to understand this dev team and their prerogatives...
    Oh wow, I've been slightly Afk this week and that small line from the patch notes somehow escaped me. It's quite significant.


    I'm especially sad because one of my past builds that was vested in a particular sort of fun was a Kensei Vanguard and it was surprisingly usable, even on Reaper but of course overshadowed by the more vanilla styles -which is okay- can't have everything in the very same level of performance but it was *usable*

    I actually noted that the Capstone's % chance was off in my excel and wondered if it was both the wiki and the in-game description that were wrong as it sometimes happens but I speculated the proc chance at around 30's% never thought it was at 50. It's been 'bugged' this way for a long time now and from 5 to 50... Was the bug an extra 0 perchance? Like, shield bashing is already capped at 1 second, even if you had 200% bashing chance with three hastes somehow borkely stacked on you, it didn't matter - it was pretty balanced with that in mind, in fact we could maybe even lift the cap to 0,50 now.

    Anyhow, they could have bumped it way higher than an extra 5% or buffed the tree in some other way. It's... almost abstract to me because this has been this way for a long time and only now was an effort made to fix it or was there an ongoing effort that escaped the known issues again? It's just... There's so much in need of fixing and polish, so many things that if they were WAI, the game would feel much better and it seems they stumbled upon this now by sheer chance out of looking for other things and decided to fix it - putting yet another style out of competitive order because...?

    I don't know.. maybe 10% is still somehow serviceable. It's just disheartening overall.

    To answer the OP, depends on what you want, if you're building a Vanguard Pally, you might want to look for the Ml14 Shield in necro 4
    http://ddowiki.com/page/Item:Talon
    It has higher base die and critical profile.

    Followed by the Madstone shield in Epic Gh raid which might be troublesome to acquire as we all know these raids aren't pugged very often if at all.
    And then finish with the Demonic Slab.

    Vanguard does pack some burst damage, I was critting for 5 digits when I built mine, never cared much for the procs though. 4D6's or 9D6's will barely make a difference long term.

    If you're building a Tank, crafted ones can do the trick and can't really go wrong with them until you land yourself on epics. If you're Repaer'ing, you might want to min-max with nameds although can't really go wrong with combat tactics as trip surprisingly does wonders sometimes - the important thing is keeping your maximum dodge up which is bottlenecked by both armor & shield
    Last edited by lLockehart; 04-29-2018 at 09:07 PM. Reason: Spelling

  9. #9
    Community Member Qhualor's Avatar
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    shield bashes do pretty good damage, but could use more focus on the enhancement side and less on the actual shield side. the reason being is that shields aren't treated enough as a weapon, more as a lower end secondary weapon. Vanguards use their shields as a secondary weapon, but with so many enhancements on shield bashing, the gear investment to boost shields and damage, the procs and the increased rate to use them the shield bashing side of Vanguard is a bit underutilized. the better the shield used, the better the damage output by shields. I personally haven't found any good named shields and use CC shields instead in heroics. its not until I use the epic shields like Skyvault, Bastion and Demonic Slab that I see real good shield dps. when my Vanguard fights, he uses his main weapon mostly and shield bash when running up to a mob and standing toe to toe. its unfortunate because I would love to see Vanguards have similar damage to a main hand weapon.

    things like spike damage is about on par with other affects like acid guard. if there was nothing else better to slot, I would put it in there. the way I have my Vanguard set up, I'm pretty sure I don't have it slotted at any level.
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  10. #10
    Community Member Ralmeth's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lLockehart View Post
    I actually noted that the Capstone's % chance was off in my excel awnd wondered if it was both the wiki and the in-game description that were wrong as it sometimes happens but I speculated the proc chance at around 30's% never thought it was at 50. It's been 'bugged' this way for a long time now and from 5 to 50... Was the bug an extra 0 perchance? Like, shield bashing is already capped at 1 second, even if you had 200% bashing chance with three hastes somehow borkely stacked on you, it didn't matter - it was pretty balanced with that in mind, in fact we could maybe even lift the cap to 0,50 now.
    I had found that when you were making regular attacks with shield bashes automatically thrown in, that a stun went off about 25% of the time when your character visibally threw a shield bash. However if you actively shield bashed then this went up to 50%. So if you really wanted to stun a bad guy and stunning shield and stunning blow were on cool down you could just shield bash away. This definitely did not seem like it was working as intended, but it also didn’t seem overpowered given that you lost DPS by having a shield in your off-hand. I wouldn’t be surprised if the reason for the change is that some people were utilizing this as a tactic in high level Reaper quests, and this was found to work too well. Anyways, just a guess. So all other regular Paladins get to suffer as a result.
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    Community Member Ballrus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by redoubt View Post
    Its been a year since I was doing paladin vanguard lives (did 5 or 6 of them in a row back then.)

    1. Are the auto shield bashes still capped at 1 per second?

    2. I'm only seeing 60% chance to shield bash. 40% in vanguard and 20% in imp shield bash. I can't remember if this has changed or not. I do remember there was more available than was worth taking due to the 1 per second cap.

    3. Assuming the cap is still there, then you get a free stun every 10 seconds (on average.) (Not as good as every 2 seconds for sure.)

    4. My real question about the shield builds would be why STR is the only tactical stat. Dwarven con builds or Charisma based paladin tanks are behind in the tactical DC area. (Unless there is a way to convert?)
    1. Yes

    2. Can reach 91% with pure fighter/pally (40 vanguard, 20 imp sb, 31 leg best defense). Plus 5% if splash EK, iirc.

    3. Yes

    4. Atm, only str. No way to convert.

    Ps. https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthrea...4550-Pettition
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  12. #12
    Build Constructionist unbongwah's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by redoubt View Post
    2. I'm only seeing 60% chance to shield bash. 40% in vanguard and 20% in imp shield bash. I can't remember if this has changed or not.
    That's correct, any additional bash chance comes from the shield itself.

    Well, tier-4 Eldritch Knight offers an extra +15%, but since you'd have to give up the last two VG cores to get it, it's not worth it.
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    Community Member noobodyfool's Avatar
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    So whats the answer not to play shield bash toon?

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    Community Member zehnvhex's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by noobodyfool View Post
    So whats the answer not to play shield bash toon?
    The standard "It's okay that something sucks because you can always lower the difficulty" answer.

    Shield spike not worth the mats it takes to slot it.
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    *breaking silence for 1 of MY fav topics*

    S&B SUCKSS plain & simple. ALL of my vanguard toons are being re-spec'ed.

    Shield rush and charge in any way shape or form make up for a build that SSG can't figure out.

    *funny, because Cordovan likes his S&B toons*

    I have asked several build experts, and they all agree. WHY bother. There's not enough built into the trees to make them worthwhile.

    Maybe if we get some of the tier 4 & 5 perks other trees get it would make sense. But the lackluster S&B trees are a waste of AP's.

    I have taken Axel's Battle Cleric build and warped it as much as possible to get the cleric perks to help, but th investment isnt worth it.

    Developers, we know you're reading this. So.... give one of the most iconic fantasy character (S&B) something to actually use. vs the watered down nonsense you have in both vanguard trees.


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    It never ceases to amuse me how many players whine incessantly that everything is broken, everything needs fixed, and then lose their minds the second something that IS broken gets fixed. No, no, fix the brokens but not THAT one!

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    Community Member lLockehart's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PsychoBlonde View Post
    It never ceases to amuse me how many players whine incessantly that everything is broken, everything needs fixed, and then lose their minds the second something that IS broken gets fixed. No, no, fix the brokens but not THAT one!
    What? like, I get that some people have severely low standards but I don't think this is hard to understand or conceptualize. Development power went into fixing this 'bug' that did not need fixing and helped establish an underplayed style, they even recognized this by buffing a mere 5% from its supposed 5% baseline. It's the affirmation that they don't really get what's going on in the game that's upsetting. The game became a little worse with this instead of better - when people ask for polish and bugfixing, it's for the stuff that needs it (which is a lot) that make the game better. Right? we all want this I assume, how about some development power there?

    It would be much better and reflective of the Dev's awareness in the game if it was buffed to 25% where it's still a heartfelt nerf but nevertheless maintains the class in strong play.

    To twist this very basic premise around into whining takes some seriously high acrobatics check.

  18. #18
    Self-Appointed Coin Lord of the Seas ForgettableNPC's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lagin View Post
    *breaking silence for 1 of MY fav topics*

    S&B SUCKSS plain & simple. ALL of my vanguard toons are being re-spec'ed.

    Shield rush and charge in any way shape or form make up for a build that SSG can't figure out.

    *funny, because Cordovan likes his S&B toons*

    I have asked several build experts, and they all agree. WHY bother. There's not enough built into the trees to make them worthwhile.

    Maybe if we get some of the tier 4 & 5 perks other trees get it would make sense. But the lackluster S&B trees are a waste of AP's.

    I have taken Axel's Battle Cleric build and warped it as much as possible to get the cleric perks to help, but th investment isnt worth it.

    Developers, we know you're reading this. So.... give one of the most iconic fantasy character (S&B) something to actually use. vs the watered down nonsense you have in both vanguard trees.
    I personally use a Bastard Sword with a S&B style and take both Shield Mastery and Two Handed Fighting.
    Glancing Blows add up and significantly increases your dps especially against crowds.
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  19. #19
    Community Member AbyssalMage's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lLockehart View Post
    I actually noted that the Capstone's % chance was off in my excel and wondered if it was both the wiki and the in-game description that were wrong as it sometimes happens but I speculated the proc chance at around 30's% never thought it was at 50. It's been 'bugged' this way for a long time now and from 5 to 50... Was the bug an extra 0 perchance? Like, shield bashing is already capped at 1 second, even if you had 200% bashing chance with three hastes somehow borkely stacked on you, it didn't matter - it was pretty balanced with that in mind, in fact we could maybe even lift the cap to 0,50 now.
    It's been discussed by the community for some time. So it was most likely on their personal "Known Issues List."

    Anyhow, they could have bumped it way higher than an extra 5% or buffed the tree in some other way. It's... almost abstract to me because this has been this way for a long time and only now was an effort made to fix it or was there an ongoing effort that escaped the known issues again? It's just... There's so much in need of fixing and polish, so many things that if they were WAI, the game would feel much better and it seems they stumbled upon this now by sheer chance out of looking for other things and decided to fix it - putting yet another style out of competitive order because...?
    Its only speculative but:
    • Reaper - S&B Tank + Stun(s) + Crowd Control (from other sources) = Sleep walk at cap. AoR chain is scary for my toon (not geared for LE let alone R4+) and the Duo of S&B Tank and Warlock made everyone in the party feel like we were on a Sunday excursion. Tank lead w/AoE stun(s), Warlock AoE Hold, Druid (had a cleric until RL called) healed tank back up, repeat...Even with the nerf, Tank had enough stuns cycled to keep everything locked down (usually). A stray archer ruined my day a few times but I did say I wasn't built/geared for high Reaper.
    • They can't produce "living" content if stun is this reliable. I expect Stuns to be getting nerfed either passively or actively over the next few updates. Vanguard was just the beginning, if this is the case.


    I don't know.. maybe 10% is still somehow serviceable. It's just disheartening overall.
    10% from passive attacks is still good. You still have your active Shield Stun + Dire Charge and Improved Stun Feat (if your a Fighter Vanguard) to cycle through which should be enough for "Swarm AI" that the developers insist on repeating update after update. Your just better off playing something else unless you plan on actively Tanking high end reaper.
    Quote Originally Posted by hp1055cm View Post
    They have been tweaking the game since I started and often I disagree with them. They focus on wrong stuff, over or under compensate and abandon too much stuff. Every once in awhile they get something right, if only temporarily.

  20. #20
    Community Member noobodyfool's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PsychoBlonde View Post
    It never ceases to amuse me how many players whine incessantly that everything is broken, everything needs fixed, and then lose their minds the second something that IS broken gets fixed. No, no, fix the brokens but not THAT one!
    i generally agree with you but on this 1 your wrong maybe because you don't play a snb fighter that see's his kind nearing extinction sure I can play a pure tank but it's boring if that my only option

    And to answer another person that seems to be telling me that turning down the difficulty is the answer that also limits my enjoyment and means i will be playing by my self

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