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  1. #1
    Community Member Hilltrot's Avatar
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    Default There is no skill in DDO - Get over yourselves.

    On those occasions when I deem it necessary to play with others and also on this forum, I sometimes hear the stupid nonsense about player skill in DDO. Now I really doubt anyone who says that is a professional soccer player, in a major symphony orchestra, in a ballet, or anything that actually requires skill. It even became laughable when the "skillful" player of the forum which everyone though was awesome was a keyboard turner.

    What should be said is knowledge is the first key to this game. Knowing where the adventures are and what you are suppose to do is a good 30% of the game. Traps, for the most part aren't random and you can learn where to step to avoid them. Champions change a few things, but even then you can know what to do. I guess you could call solving puzzles a skill, but it really is just knowledge. Most of the puzzles don't even change. Numerous players defeat the bosses by standing in the spot where they can't be hit. With no PvP, there are no surprises and you can know and be prepared for anything.

    A good example of this is the old game Pacman. It's not skill to memorize the direction used to solve the maze.

    Class Build is the next key to the game. I would say about 35% of your success is due to your build. Part of this is the unwritten knowledge of how certain builds suck compared to others simply because of developer neglect. When the Devs had to remove 35 Melee Power as an "Ooops, we made monk too powerful?!" while giving some destinies 42 Melee Power, because they left them too weak for 7 years, choosing the wrong build can be a nightmare. So, imagine starting with 77 less Melee Power because you chose the wrong build.

    The Devs really dropped the ball on this. Build should not be over a third of the game experience. But, it is.

    Equipment is the next key to the game. I would say about 20%. This is true of nearly every MMO, but even more-so for DDO because the equipment is all over, there are no set lists to collect from, the crafting systems are more convoluted than the U.S. tax code, and almost every random drop is completely and utterly useless. Look at any build which tries to maximize a stat and you will see how equipment is important.

    Past lives are the final key to the game. I would say about 15% of the game. But this depends on the build and the number of past lives needed is variable. You can't ignore the +14 base ranged-damage which comes from past lives and say that past lives aren't important to using a repeating crossbow. You can't say that +18 MRR, +36 PRR, +30 Healing amp +169 hp, and +36 AC isn't important to a tank. Past lives have a great deal to do with the success of a character.

    Yes, being able to move and shoot, hitting the right button, solve simple jumping puzzles, and being able to select a target is also important. But none of this requires more skill than anyone not suffering from advanced Cerebral Palsy. And if you have CP and play this game I do applaud your skill and wish you the best.
    Last edited by Hilltrot; 04-12-2018 at 07:01 PM.

  2. #2
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hilltrot View Post
    Build should not be over a third of the game experience. But, it is.
    Why not? A large part of why many of us have played for so long and continue to play is because you want to try a different build - whether on an alt or going down the TR route.

    The variety of builds possible is one aspect of DDO that makes it stand out from the other MMO games out there. Some builds are inherently more effective than others, but luckily we have different difficulty settings that you can choose to dip into for specific quests if you don't feel that your current build is up to it.

    Playing different builds is all part of the DDO experience, and part of the journey to finding out what type of builds suit you as an individual player.

  3. #3
    Community Member Qhualor's Avatar
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    Player skill is referred to how you play the character. Don't confuse knowledge with skill. There are many factors involved that determine the strength of a build, but none should be dismissed or left out of discussions.

    By your reasoning, all I have to do is roll up any caster and be able to succeed without using skill because, as you say, there is none. I only play melee, but I do have knowledge. I can read up on what spells are good to use in quests. I can follow someone else's build design. I can stop selling caster gear I loot and use it. I shouldn't need any practice or anything and jump into quests on elite or Reaper and do just fine, right? Its just a matter of time until I can get a handle on it.

    All this time I thought using my head was important, but now I realize I didn't need to.
    #MakeDDOGreatAgain

    You are the one choosing not to play alts.

    Casual player now investing way less than I used to into the game, playing 1-3 months at a time and still want nothing to do with Reaper. #improvepuggrouping#alldifficultiesmatter

  4. #4
    Community Member Yamani's Avatar
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    Skill is defined as being able to do something well, so to say there is no skill means no one can play ddo well?

    Btw the final key to ddo is not past lives, its character build.
    Which includes: Everything put into that character.

  5. #5
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    Yet somehow you still manage to suck...
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  6. #6
    Community Member redoubt's Avatar
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    I must disagree.

    There are players on my server who outplay everyone else on whatever build they are on. Yes they have past lives and gear, but they are also very knowledgeable and skilled at manipulating their avatar.

    Timing when to move in to attack, which attack to use, circle strafe, line strafe, perch, sneak, assassinate, hold or charm, AOE CC or single target instakill. These are all decisions and you may call them knowledge vs skill, but then its an argument of semantics (in which case there is zero point in discussing it.)

    Lets look at what everyone likes to call the OP class right now. Warlock.

    Put full past lives on it and perfect gear. Now, use only Eldrich blast attacks. This is the no skill option.

    Next, lets compare that to someone who uses ALL the abilities and spells the class has to offer. I argue that playing the exact same build this way requires both more knowledge and more SKILL.

    We could do the same with almost any build. In fact, maybe you can help me. I need a build for a friend who enjoys playing the game, but has poor eyesight and isn't interested in pushing a lot of buttons rapidly or even having to figure out which buttons to do. He would, I think, actually enjoy a low skill required build. Now, this build needs to survive end game on R2 (on average) to stay with the other two of us. My thought was a WIS and evocation based arcane archer so that he could turn on para arrows and just click the attack button and nothing else. What build do you suggest?

    Note: for the AAs out there, I know there is much more that AAs can do, I'm literally trying to find a constructive build that is easy to play and survive on. The CC from para arrows would be nice and putting him at range and not doing things to boost his dps would help him survive.
    Should a reaper see me? I think Death itself should have to make a spot check when I'm rolling up behind him. -- Krimsonrane

  7. #7
    Community Member -D_Rock-'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hilltrot View Post
    On those occasions when I deem it necessary to play with others and also on this forum, I sometimes hear the stupid nonsense about player skill in DDO. Now I really doubt anyone who says that is a professional soccer player, in a major symphony orchestra, in a ballet, or anything that actually requires skill. It even became laughable when the "skillful" player of the forum which everyone though was awesome was a keyboard turner.

    What should be said is knowledge is the first key to this game. Knowing where the adventures are and what you are suppose to do is a good 30% of the game. Traps, for the most part aren't random and you can learn where to step to avoid them. Champions change a few things, but even then you can know what to do. I guess you could call solving puzzles a skill, but it really is just knowledge. Most of the puzzles don't even change. Numerous players defeat the bosses by standing in the spot where they can't be hit. With no PvP, there are no surprises and you can know and be prepared for anything.

    A good example of this is the old game Pacman. It's not skill to memorize the direction used to solve the maze.

    Class Build is the next key to the game. I would say about 35% of your success is due to your build. Part of this is the unwritten knowledge of how certain builds suck compared to others simply because of developer neglect. When the Devs had to remove 35 Melee Power as an "Ooops, we made monk too powerful?!" while giving some destinies 42 Melee Power, because they left them too weak for 7 years, choosing the wrong build can be a nightmare. So, imagine starting with 77 less Melee Power because you chose the wrong build.

    The Devs really dropped the ball on this. Build should not be over a third of the game experience. But, it is.

    Equipment is the next key to the game. I would say about 20%. This is true of nearly every MMO, but even more-so for DDO because the equipment is all over, there are no set lists to collect from, the crafting systems are more convoluted than the U.S. tax code, and almost every random drop is completely and utterly useless. Look at any build which tries to maximize a stat and you will see how equipment is important.

    Past lives are the final key to the game. I would say about 15% of the game. But this depends on the build and the number of past lives needed is variable. You can't ignore the +14 base ranged-damage which comes from past lives and say that past lives aren't important to using a repeating crossbow. You can't say that +18 MRR, +36 PRR, +30 Healing amp +169 hp, and +36 AC isn't important to a tank. Past lives have a great deal to do with the success of a character.

    Yes, being able to move and shoot, hitting the right button, solve simple jumping puzzles, and being able to select a target is also important. But none of this requires more skill than anyone not suffering from advanced Cerebral Palsy. And if you have CP and play this game I do applaud your skill and wish you the best.
    1. Skill, comes from practice. As an artist for over 30 years now people often say 'you have a god given talent sir' I reply with 'there is no such thing, its called practice'. you simply cannot realistically expect anyone who has drawn for say 5 years, to be as good as some one who has done it their entire life. this is true with all things, much like your point of being a great ballet dancer, or any other form of anything you described that requires practice to develop 'skill' in or AKA: being good at something. not sure what you mean by 'keyboard turner' though, as I play with a gamepad and quite well hold my own in low or high reapers difficulties. (you're wrong)

    2. Knowledge of game: for once, you're right. knowledge is power. this is a saying for a reason. much like developing skill. for instance, using my skill as an artist again, I know how to draw a face realistically. im not going to start with a simple circle for a face but develop it more realistically with other shapes and shades because I have done this many times.

    3. Pacman.: yes, yes it is skill indeed because it requires practice and also the definitive explanation to skill is : to do well at something. IE: pacman (you're wrong)

    3. Class builds: I'm not sure where you're going with this and it makes no sense in a game that is SPECIFICALLY designed for such a thing. DND is all about build customization. It always has been and in all honesty this is one of the very few DND games that holds true to PNP as closely as they can while making it a fun video game at the same time. Nothing is perfect and nothing will be PNP. I personally dislike games that give very limited choices, and I actually LIKE the fact that you can completely bork your character if you don't understand how the game works as well. That free range of customization is what you cannot find in any other game, period. ALSO: it sounds like you are just upset over the monk changes more than anything. Your join date is also 2006 so I assumed you would have figured this out by now but hey, we all learn at our own pace, kind of like people with advanced Cerebral Palsy for example.

    4. Equipment: 20%?? I would place it closer to 50%. you can have the best build in the world but that build with no gear would net you around a 50 DC (w/e class) to 100 with gear. Sorry, wrong again.

    5. Past Lives: I call this the 'DDO sickness'. people in their 'mindsets' of I *need* to play this difficulty because well, everyone else is so I have to, even if I am completely piking and offering nothing at all. Past lives depend on what difficulty you want to achieve at the game. No one is forcing you to play reaper 10 skulls on every quest day in and day out. The choice really is yours. It really is. this game can be fun as heck on any diff depending on the power level of your toon. you can have 1 super powered toon or more or simply opt out to play whatever you really want. the difficulty choice is at every dungeon window after all. get out of your mindset because no one cares but you.

    OVER ALL analysis: You're completely wrong. There is nothing wrong with being wrong so long as you learn from it. We all need to mess up and practice more to learn after all. So that we can do something well, thus having skill.
    Proud leader of The Forgotten Creed of Argo. long live PNP & Gary Gygax immortalized.
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  8. #8
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    your point being, besides antagonizing?

    Did someone leave your stone in a lava pool and told you l2p or something?

  9. #9
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    OP must be a warlock.

    pew, pew ...

  10. #10
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    Examples of "skill" that are independent of character power:

    positioning:
    -controlling mob "facing"
    -using doorways and other choke points

    timing:
    -using spells/abilities to interrupt enemy spellcasting/attack sequences

    movement:
    -dodging rays spells and missile attacks
    -breaking line-of-sight to cancel mob spellcasting (e.g. by jumping over them)

    This isn't a complete list, just a few examples that come to mind.

    Most players complete quests without any tactical play, so it's probably fair to say that the game doesn't require any real skill. But even so, there have been some genuinely skilled players over the years.

  11. #11
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    “If more of us valued food and cheer and song above hoarded gold, it would be a merrier world.” ~ J.R.R. Tolkien
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  12. #12
    Community Member the_one_dwarfforged's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hilltrot View Post
    On those occasions when I deem it necessary to play with others
    10/10

    Quote Originally Posted by Hilltrot View Post
    Now I really doubt anyone who says that is a professional soccer player, in a major symphony orchestra, in a ballet, or anything that actually requires skill. It even became laughable when the "skillful" player of the forum which everyone though was awesome was a keyboard turner.

    Yes, being able to move and shoot, hitting the right button, solve simple jumping puzzles, and being able to select a target is also important. But none of this requires more skill than anyone not suffering from advanced Cerebral Palsy.
    so what you are saying is...there is skill in this game?

    Quote Originally Posted by Hilltrot View Post
    And if you have CP and play this game I do applaud your skill and wish you the best.
    stop patting yourself on the back...



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  13. #13
    Community Member Chai's Avatar
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    I agree. Usually when its brought up its used to bemoan and belittle someone with a differing opinion, insinuating the opinion is only had due to inability to play what is being discussed. Circle strafing and limitless jumping, on top of having run the same content for a straight decade, arent really a recipe for high skill ceiling braggadocio.

  14. #14
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    Just plain wrong. I've known experienced players who are better or worse than particular others regardless of build. There is a skill to playing different builds, there is a skill to making good builds.

  15. #15

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    Dear Hilltrot:

    Thank you for announcing that you have no idea of what the word 'skill' means.

    I'm not certain why you felt the need to make this announcement, but good on ya!
    I am the 'Who' In the call "Who's there!?"
    I am the wind blowing through your hair.
    I am the shadow on the moon at night, filling your dreams to the brim with fright.

  16. #16
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    This is an excellent example of why it's not a good idea to post right after eating your Angry Man TV Dinner. A steady diet of those and you'll find yourself wanting to fight everyone on the forums at once.

    I wouldn't say a great deal of skill is required to succeed in DDO in most content. And yes, your effectiveness is also affected by build, gear and quest knowledge.

    But some good examples of skill differences are in completion speeds and difficult solo run performances. For all that I know how the two Ravenloft raids work for example, I'm not going to be soloing them anytime soon and neither I suspect will you. Our inability to do that isn't attributable to any of the things you've cited in your post either.

    So while I'd agree there are better things to become skillful at, and that a high degree of skill may not be needed to complete most content, if you look at the differences between people who are relatively new to a build and those who have been playing it for a while the results speak for themselves and the difference is because of player skill.

    Thanks.
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  17. #17
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    Of course it's not a game of skill. I am guessing 95% of my high school graduating class could achieve the highest levels of ddo if they had time or money and the interest level. DDO is a game about putting in the time.

  18. #18
    Community Member Inanout's Avatar
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    I believe it takes skill to run a raid group so everyone feels needed. Even if they are not.
    KEEP THE LIGHTS ON

  19. #19
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    Seeing as the literal definition of skill is "to do something well", the real lack of skill here is showing in your argumentative analysis.

    Since similar players do in fact produce differing outcomes on similar toons outside of the randomization of the game enemies themselves, DDO fits the definition of a skill game. The antithesis of a game of skill would be a game of chance. By that definition players should not be able to affect different outcome and only increase their odds of success by increasing the number of chances granted.

    DDO is a game of skill. The weight of each of those micro skills, build choices, itemization choices, game actions don't need to be equal, nor does being unequal in potential effect mean they are not skills. That just means they're like every of set of skills someone brings to a game in life.

    ETA: The level of effort required to gain expertise does not keep something from being a skill. Just because someone or someones don't value a particular skill doesn't make it not a skill either. That would be a first order flaw in logic. If people want to argue about the ease of acquisition of one skill versus another, that's something else entirely.

    What the OP could have said was "I don't value in dungeon game actions as having a discernible net effect on the outcome, excluding for simple positioning/perching". That at least would have been an accurate argument one could make, except that it's easily refutable seeing as how the game mechanics rely on movement physics (line of sight, hit boxes, interrupts, etc) and thus players can take advantage of those mechanics by tailoring their in game actions with understanding as how to effect optimal outcomes in conjunction with skill decisions made pre-runtime, or in place of sub-optimal skill decisions made pre-runtime. No need to argue the degree to which outcomes can be affected because the OP helpfully placed their argument at 0%. Anything non-zero would prove the fallacy of their argument.
    Last edited by myliftkk_v2; 04-13-2018 at 12:34 AM.

  20. #20
    Community Member Singular's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hilltrot View Post

    Yes, being able to move and shoot, hitting the right button, solve simple jumping puzzles, and being able to select a target is also important. But none of this requires more skill than anyone not suffering from advanced Cerebral Palsy. And if you have CP and play this game I do applaud your skill and wish you the best.
    The skill in DDO is essentially setting up an individualized hotbar keyboard and learning how to "type" in reaction to whatever situation you find yourself in. This involves knowing which buttons to push in response to combat or the environment.I have some 32 keys mapped to my keyboard, so I can outperform anyone who has only 10, for example, all other things being equal. Someone who memorized 50 would do better than me.

    So it's a skillset that involves pairing knowledge of your character, items and powers to key strokes. Yeah, not as difficult as being a professional athlete, but definitely some skill.

    Whenever I take a long time off, I return to find that I can't finish EEs well. It takes a few days to a week to get back up to speed. If DDO involved exactly zero skill, I'd return to the same performance as I enjoyed before the vacation.

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