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  1. #1
    Community Member Fanaval's Avatar
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    Default Reaper xp: better at lvl 30 or at heroic lvls?

    Hi,

    As we know from this post https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthrea...in-a-full-life it is possible to do about 120-150k heroic Xp leveling 1-20 in about 24 hours.

    How many RXP is possible to do in Epic (considering the new double bonus on rxp for quests lvl 30 and above) in 24 hours doing quests of lvl 30-34? (without first time bonus).

    Do you think it is better to run potions at heroic levels to also benefit from Racial past lives or run potions at lvl 30 to maximize the reaper XP and do no more heroic xp?
    (Please take in account that it is more easy to find a full group for high skulls at cap)

    Thanks.
    Fanaval Turinaur

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    Triple Epic Completionist; Heroic Completionist.

  2. #2
    Hero JOTMON's Avatar
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    Heroics easily blows away RXP generated.
    On one toon I have completed my 33 lives of Racial TR'ing and obtained about 3 million RXP giving 55 Reaper points.
    My other toon that I kept at cap raiding and running Legendary content (including Reaper 10's) I have obtained just under 400K RXP (19 points).
    Both have been run about the same amount of overall time.

    I have obtained 10x the RXP doing heroic levelling for the same relative amount of playing time on both toons...


    There are several factors.

    The Reaper XP formula is fundamentally flawed.
    ~Base Reaper XP = 50 + 3 * (quest level on normal) * (number of skulls) * Length bonus (0.8 for short, 1 for medium, 1.2 for long, 1.4 for very long) ~

    1. Legendary Levels where the content gets longer and comparably more difficult at level is not appropriately rewarded.

    2. RXP/min.
    Heroic content is completed much more quickly via TR lives. Epic XP pays better RXP/quest, but the RXP/min declines significantly

    3. Over level penalties.
    The over level penalties screw RXP deterring players from running Reaper XP in higher level content
    for instance. Epic XP in Von 5 (a level 22 epic quest) can be run level 20-30.. no penalties..,
    in Reaper however, a level 23 player incurs a 20% penalty, a level 24 player incurs a 50% penalty, a level 28 player incurrs a 95% penalty, and level 29/30 players are just screwed since they are locked out completely.

    4. XP pots.
    Great for quick content since you optimize your xp/min.
    In higher levels where content is run in a variety of difficulties and content is much longer duration due to increased difficulty pot usage suffers.
    Higher level Reaper content exponentially increases in quest time in high level content.
    There is no pause button for XP pots.
    which results in pots being overly expensive when running Epic levels, and pointless when running Legendary levels.

    5. player capabilities..
    More players are capable of running Reaper in heroic content than in Epic or Legendary content.
    This results in a smaller pool of capable players running high level content in Reaper , let alone higher level reaper difficulty.
    Good players can solo low level content in reaper and carry weaker players through, in higher levels there is less buffer range.. In legendary there is no room for it.
    Epics end up getting dropped down in Reaper or even down to Elites for those of us not sucked into dailies of EN/EH.. to just get through the content or levelling off destinies.

    6. Heroic content can be run at at level with higher skulls with lower failure risk and pace can be easily adjusted for RXP/min running first time bonuses without any need to repeat any content, optimizing all bonuses.
    Epic Content is much more of a slug fest and snail crawl pace.
    Capped toon RXP/min drops significantly losing ground due to in quest time, loss of bonuses while being stuck repeating limited at level content.


    I would look at a couple primary factors to correct the player range RXP.

    1. The formula should be better adjusted to add a multiplier for Epic and Legendary difficulty.

    2. change the Reaper XP penalty calculation..
    a. remove the lockout... the 95% penalty hit is already punitive enough.
    b. instead of player level vs quest base to scale penalties..
    Take player level vs (Quest level + Reaper Skulls)

    In the example of Von5 above...
    instead of locking out level 29 and 30 players and 95% penalty to having level 28 players...
    quest level 22 +Reaper 8 skulls and no lockout means level 30 players can enter Von5 and still get Reaper XP... lower the skulls and penalties apply..

    This way, to run Von 5 with level 30 players you would have to run Reaper 8 skulls to incur no penalty and obtain full base RXP.
    This would allow players to run all available content instead of screwing over level players out of being able to run content in reaper difficulty that they can run in non-reaper without penalty.

    Players can then broaden their play range and actually play content in Reaper mode on their capped toons beyond the few Legendary at level quests they are stuck with without having to TR.
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  3. #3
    Community Member Pilgrim1's Avatar
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    Fist time bonuses favor once and done content playing as oposed to playing at cap.

  4. #4
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    My experience is that the gap is not nearly as big as it used to be. The system still favours getting rxp through heroic levelling, but especially with the addition of Ravenloft, trying to get rxp at cap is not such an exercise in futility anymore.

    If you're done with heroics try assembling a regular group from your guild/channel/friends list and working out what your limit is for at how many skulls you can do cap quests. One argument in favour of playing at cap is you (may) have your best gear and do have your full range of class and ED abilities to use. You also accumulate gear that is useful for sentient weapon food (including a second gem for another weapon and/or as food for when more gem slots are unlocked) and possibly also crafting materials.

    Before Ravenloft came out, I had some sessions that gave around 50k rxp running cap quests, which was more than I expected. Those were repeats with the daily bonus and lower value xp potions, but the group had strong instakillers, good dps and an effective method for running quests. But it would certainly be possible to do better than that, especially now.

    Losing the first time bonus and probable longer average completion times (consuming more xp potions, if you use them) are two very good arguments not to stay at cap. I think it's dreary to keep on playing heroic content just for rxp if you already have all the past life feats you want but you may not mind it. Anyway, try it and see, you may find it works well enough for you to seem like a good alternative.

    Take care.

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fanaval View Post
    Hi,

    As we know from this post https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthrea...in-a-full-life it is possible to do about 120-150k heroic Xp leveling 1-20 in about 24 hours.

    How many RXP is possible to do in Epic (considering the new double bonus on rxp for quests lvl 30 and above) in 24 hours doing quests of lvl 30-34? (without first time bonus).

    Do you think it is better to run potions at heroic levels to also benefit from Racial past lives or run potions at lvl 30 to maximize the reaper XP and do no more heroic xp?
    (Please take in account that it is more easy to find a full group for high skulls at cap)

    Thanks.
    I'd say it depends on your playstyle and which order of magnitude on the DPS continuum you sit at...

    If you can zerg high skulls through a heroic/epic TR then first time bonuses at legendary and repeat in an all-warlock-all-the-time group then that's probably the fastest way to get reaper xp, but if you'd otherwise be doing R1/2 at a modest pace through heroics left to your own devices then you'll easily get 10x as much in legendary quests joining groups that are doing stuff like a daily R10 amber at cap.

    Just pick whichever option will be more fun while you're doing it, I'd recommend, and if that gets boring then mix it up and do the other option
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  6. #6
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    Is that the right questions? How much are doing stuff for only RXP?

    Heroic you can get both RXP and earn PLs. At cap, you can get RXP and also raid & farm gear. Which do you need more, or do you need both?

    Personally I dislike the idea of spending much time/effort solely on farming RXP, but I've racked up lots of RXP while doing other stuff.
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  7. #7
    The Hatchery Enoach's Avatar
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    I would say at this time the 1 to 20 game is still better for the Rxp earning. The point that you are earning other bonuses, finite as they are (there are only so many past lives), is part of the draw.

    While there are now more level 30 quests reducing the over level penalty, I still think the Epic Rxp amounts compared to Heroic are still not fully on par with each other.

    That being said, I think the latest changes in epic as well as more higher level content is moving in the right direction.

  8. #8
    Community Member HungarianRhapsody's Avatar
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    If you can run Ravenloft quests on R3, then you'll get really nice RXP from that at cap. If you're running VoN3 R1 at cap... then you're not getting any Reaper XP.

    The real question for me isn't "What gives more Reaper XP?" The real question for me is "What stuff that I would be doing anyway is going to give me good Reaper XP?"

    And that depends on what my character and I can successfully run much more than it depends on any XP formula. If you're doing Ravenloft R3 quests in 20 minutes or less, that's awesome. Keep doing that. If you're doing quests 4 levels below you in 40 minutes at cap... then your RXP won't be great and you should try to get the XP in Heroics.
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  9. #9
    Hero JOTMON's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HungarianRhapsody View Post
    If you can run Ravenloft quests on R3, then you'll get really nice RXP from that at cap. If you're running VoN3 R1 at cap... then you're not getting any Reaper XP.

    The real question for me isn't "What gives more Reaper XP?" The real question for me is "What stuff that I would be doing anyway is going to give me good Reaper XP?"

    And that depends on what my character and I can successfully run much more than it depends on any XP formula. If you're doing Ravenloft R3 quests in 20 minutes or less, that's awesome. Keep doing that. If you're doing quests 4 levels below you in 40 minutes at cap... then your RXP won't be great and you should try to get the XP in Heroics.

    No one is running Reaper Von's at cap.
    You cant run any of the Vons with capped toons, They are level 22 quests. level 29 and level 30 toons are locked out of Reaper difficulty of this content.
    Capped toons are screwed out of being able to run a large spectrum of content in reaper difficulty that they can run in non-reaper by Dev design.


    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    here is a Reaper experience over-level penalty (from the base level of a dungeon or raid) as follows:
    +1 - 20%
    +2 - 50% (typical Bravery Bonus maximum level for Heroic)
    +3 - 70%
    +4 - 80%
    +5 - 90%
    +6 - 95%
    More than 6 levels = locked out
    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~~~~~~

    The penalties are steep and the lockout is overly punitive.
    Whether its Reaper 1 or Reaper 10, the penalties are applied based on quest base level vs the player level.
    The skull selection has no factoring into being able to run the content, in my opinion the skull selection should factor into the equation.
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  10. #10
    The Hatchery Enoach's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JOTMON View Post
    ...Capped toons are screwed out of being able to run a large spectrum of content in reaper difficulty that they can run in non-reaper by Dev design.

    ...
    This is the crux of the problem with Rxp in the Epic Capped area.

    This is why area's like Ravenloft make a good effort in this area as it opens up more questing options for capped characters.


    Technically, Level 18 to 20 Heroic Quests have a different issue in that you cannot do them on Reaper as a level 20.

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Enoach View Post
    Technically, Level 18 to 20 Heroic Quests have a different issue in that you cannot do them on Reaper as a level 20.
    I haven't tried ToD or Heroic LoB, but you can do Dreaming Dark on Reaper at 20.
    Quote Originally Posted by Vargouille View Post
    As a general rule we don't intend for a single spawn area to cause any dungeon alert, and certainly not red dungeon alert. This basically isn't ever a goal in our designs

  12. #12
    The Hatchery Enoach's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SirValentine View Post
    I haven't tried ToD or Heroic LoB, but you can do Dreaming Dark on Reaper at 20.
    I will have to check that out, for some reason I have a memory of not being able to get into Dreaming Dark Reaper on my level 20. Going to have to check this out for sure as that quest would be much easier with destinies .

  13. #13
    Community Member Mglaxix's Avatar
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    I am running off my 11th racial life on my main currently averaged 140k rxp heroic easily hitting most content and could see hitting 160-180k rxp with all heroic content. I don't do 24 hour lives anymore I am enjoying reaper way to much now.

    Epic Rxp achieved without BB thus far is close to 400k rxp on my 11th life. That's from 20-30 of course with little to no BB bonus since I ran most off in heroics as well.

    Next life I will be avoiding all epic content at heroic levels to see how the rxp stacks up differently in epics. I would rather burn my first time bb bonus on heroic only content if I can pull 600k+ rxp in epics alone. Paying over 90k+ per reaper point I see less and less need to run full heroic rxp lives.

    So that means in one life from 1-30 I obtained over 600k rxp with little to no trouble. Burning mostly 20% pots and at 30 burning a 50% is a nice boost when your rxp is doubled first time thru.

    There are adjustments to be made in heroic and epics to make reaper smoother...... I have run wizard, cleric, druid, paladin, fighter, and warlock in reaper. I have seen plenty of other classes perform well in reaper as well. Party makeup of course will dictate tactics, speed, and skull level run.

    I had no problems at all putting up an LFM and pugging most of the epic content on reaper at all. I can't say I carried the group but contributed what I could where and when I could. I ran most of the epic content off on R3-5 since it was my first life trying epic reaper from 20+ having completed most of this content now I would feel more comfortable next life hitting it at R5+ at level with a decent group.

    I can't say I see a lot of at level epic reaper LFM's yet but they are starting to pop up more now. If you don't post them and don't run them then you'll never know if you can do them anyway and no one can join an unposted LFM.
    Main 100+ Lives ( 42/42 HTR - 15/21 ITR - 36/36 ETR - 12/14 RAP - 30/36 RTR - 83/154 ), Jynxer - Completionist ( 22/42 HTR - 7/21 ITR - 12/36 ETR - 2/14 RAP - 1/36 RTR - 36/154 ), SoulDuster - Completionist ( 15x HTR 3x ETR 20/154 ) BlakReign - 1st Life Reaper https://ibb.co/album/k1hMqa https://ibb.co/album/g0yuAa https://ibb.co/album/bXjCWF

  14. #14
    Community Member Mglaxix's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JOTMON View Post
    Heroics easily blows away RXP generated.
    On one toon I have completed my 33 lives of Racial TR'ing and obtained about 3 million RXP giving 55 Reaper points.
    My other toon that I kept at cap raiding and running Legendary content (including Reaper 10's) I have obtained just under 400K RXP (19 points).
    Both have been run about the same amount of overall time.
    Your not taking into account that your BB is resetting on each new life...... you cap toon has a single one time BB bonus at best....

    I have obtained 10x the RXP doing heroic levelling for the same relative amount of playing time on both toons...
    That makes perfect sense.... See above.


    There are several factors.

    The Reaper XP formula is fundamentally flawed.
    ~Base Reaper XP = 50 + 3 * (quest level on normal) * (number of skulls) * Length bonus (0.8 for short, 1 for medium, 1.2 for long, 1.4 for very long) ~

    1. Legendary Levels where the content gets longer and comparably more difficult at level is not appropriately rewarded.
    Thats funny i thought they doubled the first time rxp on legendary ( 30 + ) content.

    2. RXP/min.
    Heroic content is completed much more quickly via TR lives. Epic XP pays better RXP/quest, but the RXP/min declines significantly
    Heroic rxp/min avg is 100/min R3-6 Epic rxp/min 100-200/min til capped then it can break 300+/min R3-5+ so how does it decline per minute exactly. I screenshot my entire last life so the proof is in the pictures.

    3. Over level penalties.
    The over level penalties screw RXP deterring players from running Reaper XP in higher level content
    for instance. Epic XP in Von 5 (a level 22 epic quest) can be run level 20-30.. no penalties..,
    in Reaper however, a level 23 player incurs a 20% penalty, a level 24 player incurs a 50% penalty, a level 28 player incurrs a 95% penalty, and level 29/30 players are just screwed since they are locked out completely.
    In Epics at level 30 in Von 5 you lose your BB bonus so please don't claim there is no penalty. There is to anyone who hasn't run it yet... for BB.

    Any of those capped toons can ETR and run any epic content to their hearts content gaining Rxp with no penalty just fine.

    4. XP pots.
    Great for quick content since you optimize your xp/min.
    In higher levels where content is run in a variety of difficulties and content is much longer duration due to increased difficulty pot usage suffers.
    Higher level Reaper content exponentially increases in quest time in high level content.
    There is no pause button for XP pots.
    which results in pots being overly expensive when running Epic levels, and pointless when running Legendary levels.
    Having run nearly all epic reaper content average finish under 35 minutes I don't see a problem with understanding when to let a pot expire and run longer content quests.

    5. player capabilities..
    More players are capable of running Reaper in heroic content than in Epic or Legendary content.
    This results in a smaller pool of capable players running high level content in Reaper , let alone higher level reaper difficulty.
    Good players can solo low level content in reaper and carry weaker players through, in higher levels there is less buffer range.. In legendary there is no room for it.
    Epics end up getting dropped down in Reaper or even down to Elites for those of us not sucked into dailies of EN/EH.. to just get through the content or levelling off destinies.
    That's comical at best had a first lifer swapping ED's that kept up just fine in R5 epic content. He was smart enough to heal and fall back as needed not rushing ahead and dead.
    Everyone can heal in epics that's not even close to true in Heroics.

    6. Heroic content can be run at at level with higher skulls with lower failure risk and pace can be easily adjusted for RXP/min running first time bonuses without any need to repeat any content, optimizing all bonuses.
    Epic Content is much more of a slug fest and snail crawl pace.
    Capped toon RXP/min drops significantly losing ground due to in quest time, loss of bonuses while being stuck repeating limited at level content.
    I quit watching rxp xp per minute long ago... I watch my rxp xp per life per first time bonus etc....


    I would look at a couple primary factors to correct the player range RXP.

    1. The formula should be better adjusted to add a multiplier for Epic and Legendary difficulty.

    2. change the Reaper XP penalty calculation..
    a. remove the lockout... the 95% penalty hit is already punitive enough.
    b. instead of player level vs quest base to scale penalties..
    Take player level vs (Quest level + Reaper Skulls)

    In the example of Von5 above...
    instead of locking out level 29 and 30 players and 95% penalty to having level 28 players...
    quest level 22 +Reaper 8 skulls and no lockout means level 30 players can enter Von5 and still get Reaper XP... lower the skulls and penalties apply..
    So now after removing lockout all those players lose BB bonus for first time run thru hmmmmm...... do not like that at all....

    This way, to run Von 5 with level 30 players you would have to run Reaper 8 skulls to incur no penalty and obtain full base RXP.
    This would allow players to run all available content instead of screwing over level players out of being able to run content in reaper difficulty that they can run in non-reaper without penalty.
    Screwed cap players out of max 52 quests. period. Lol.... 52 quests...... 2 of which are not even epic... leaving 90+ quest to run at cap and 10 skull levels each. So about 35% of epic quest cannot be run by a cap toon on reaper. And each update that will go down down down down in percentage.... and cap quests will continue to give double rxp first time bonus. Tell all those cap toons to cry me a river.

    Players can then broaden their play range and actually play content in Reaper mode on their capped toons beyond the few Legendary at level quests they are stuck with without having to TR.
    Let me know when you come up with a better way to penalize players who can run content at level on reaper than the thought process you are currently using.
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  15. #15
    Community Member Ellihor's Avatar
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    If you have a party I belive atm it's faster to get more rxp at cap, but the problems are

    - you need a party, unless you fry your brain in amber
    - you don't get anything, while at heroics you get the pls
    - the number of quests is very small and it gets tedious fast

    But this is irrelevant compared to the bigger issue with rxp I see atm is how it doesn't scale enough with skulls, making the optimal rxp/min at 6-7 skulls where it's a zerg, except that one quest already mentioned.

    The rxp should be exponentially with skulls, not linear.

    But to solve the heroic vs epic is simple:

    Remove first time bonus, bravery and streak bonuses from the reaper xp formula, then give these bonuses for everyone, or a bit lower than what it actually does.
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  16. #16
    Community Member BandVP's Avatar
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    Default Level 30

    I believe reaper xp at level 30 is better than heroic. This is because at heroic levells you much be very specific about who joins your pug/party as you do not want to loose out on reaper xp, however at level 30 with legendary content such as ravenloft you cannot loose out on reaper xp.

    Not only this but with groups, your pugs should (most of the time) be filling faster at level 30 as more people are at endgame as in heroics people are always levelling.
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  17. #17
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    Default So zerg r1 as fast as possible in heroics?

    Quote Originally Posted by JOTMON View Post

    The Reaper XP formula is fundamentally flawed.
    ~Base Reaper XP = 50 + 3 * (quest level on normal) * (number of skulls) * Length bonus (0.8 for short, 1 for medium, 1.2 for long, 1.4 for very long) ~
    So if I'm reading this right, in heroics one could be zerging R1 as fast as possible, piling mobs up to alert and AoEing them down. Just go for the 50 base RXP.

    With an average heroic quest level of 10, this gives 80 RXP at R1, +30 per additional skull. One would have to go to R4 to double heroic RXP. But one can pile to red alert on R1 and AoE them down at once, making it much faster than twice as fast as R4. Plus due to damage reduction formula you deal more than twice the damage on R1 as R4.


    Reaper 1 skull 1428 dmg = 71,4%
    Reaper 2 skull 1052 dmg = 52,6%
    Reaper 3 skull 770 dmg = 38,5%
    Reaper 4 skull 572 dmg = 28,6% << takes over 2x as long to dps something down than R1.
    Last edited by Tilomere; 08-22-2018 at 10:09 PM.

  18. #18
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    It's more FUN at cap. That's what's most important.
    Quote Originally Posted by Alled78 View Post
    Why should i use all my neural cells when i can go inqui and go pew pew pew ???

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kaboom2112 View Post
    It's more FUN at cap.
    No.

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kaboom2112 View Post
    It's more FUN at cap. That's what's most important.
    If I was going to finish past lives, to go to cap and stay, then doing a quest twice at R1 over two different lives instead of once on R4 gets me to cap 2x as fast, and the same amount of RXP per time.

    Now I understand why I mostly see just R1 in heroics.

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