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  1. #1
    Community Member zehnvhex's Avatar
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    Default U38 is not ready.

    U38 is not ready.

    Remember when Sev and friends announced they were becoming SSG and we all cheered because now they'd no longer be under Turbines big evil thumb and we wouldn't get rushed quarterly content? That they could finally work on things until they were polished and ready?

    Well, here's hoping they can live up to that expectation. This is what you have to look forward in U38 if it goes live in anything resembling it's current state:

    ---

    If Ravenloft set a new standard of quality for DDO content then the new Disciples of Rage pack is a massive failure in meeting or even getting within a stones throw of that kind of quality. And this includes ignoring the obvious "it'll be fixed before live" issues like grammatical errors, DM voices not being hooked up, missing chests, etc...

    Here's the issues without going into too much depth.

    - The dungeons are full of copy/paste modules. You know that cave tile spiral around a pool of lava/water/mushrooms that's in pretty much every single cave dungeon in DDO? Well, I hope you really like it because it's back again!

    - "4 melee mobs, 2 ranged mobs, 1 caster." "4 melee mobs, 2 ranged mobs, 1 caster." "4 melee mobs, 2 ranged mobs, 1 caster, 1 animal." "4 melee mobs, 2 ranged mobs, 1 caster." "4 melee mobs, 2 ranged mobs, 1 caster, 1 animal." Rinse, repeat.

    - More loot designed for people who just started playing last week designed by people who just started playing yesterday. Conjuration bonuses on druids weapons...seriously guys?

    - Can we get an epic and legendary version of the same dungeon for a change? I strictly play heroics and even I think the 'lower' level version of this dungeon being 14 is terrible. How about...23 and 30? That wouldn't be too shabby.

    - They might as well have these dungeons not award any XP. There are level 5 quests that reward you with more xp for less effort in half the time, not even including 3BC silliness in that statement. At least if they gave 0 xp I would know not to waste my time.

    ---

    Artificer/Druid passes are not ready.

    They aren't.

    Artificer Renegade Mastermaker is being designed to be obsolete before it even hits live. A bunch of SLA's that will never see the light of day, single target melee attacks that are bad against the only mobs in the game you build for single target melee attacks. Currently the only build anybody has put forth that is remotely respectable is an extremely niche tanking build specifically for Baba.

    Druid cats are dead. Just..yeah. Dead. I get that since we're nerfing monks we don't want to simultaneously accidentally create a new end game meta build but holy guacamole guys.

    I hear nice things about Druid bears though so that can go live I guess.

    ---

    Monk nerfs.

    Look, I love monk nerfs but they pulled to the left way too much on this one. You don't nerf an end game build by neutering lowbie abilities when you have perfectly viable capstone abilities you could have nerfed instead. Melee aren't exactly the bees knees in heroics right now and they chopped out the lowbie legs out from under them.

    When they brought people back to work on Ravenloft they must have brought back the guy that really hates monk splashes. "Monk hybrids? Not on my watch!" This is what, the third time now you guys have murdered X/X monk builds? The important thing though is that /6 fighter didn't get touched. 20 mp and +1 crit is still just fine!

    Everyone can agree that monks were quite a bit out of touch in the cap game but if you're going to nerf a class in favor of some nebulous 'future buffs we pinky swears' you might want to at least showcase some of those future-buffs or at the very least...nerf the right thing.

    I mean, don't get me wrong, I have great faith in you guys but OH LOOK WARLOCKS BETTER NERF SHINING THROUGH AGAIN.

    ---

    Here's what I recommend:

    Go back to the drawing board on druid kitty and arti revamps. You guys are whiffing hard on these.

    DoR needs a rework from the ground up. It's like a worse Newcomers, but 5 of them in a row. I lambasted Mines of Tethyamar as one of the worst dungeon packs in DDO but all it really needed was the health scaled back (TORC WE NEED TO HAVE A CHAT BUDDY) and the XP doubled to make it -amazing-. There's no saving DoR currently.

    Throw melee a token buff (all melee now gets baseline 50% grazing hits, THF has bigger range and can hit in back?) with the monk nerfs and fix the monk nerfs so that they are done properly. I would recommend talking to somebody that knows how to actually build classes.

    ---

    Also, fix public LFM. Hard lock it to EE BB or max RxP by default. I get so excited when someone ~actually~ uses that terrible LFM panel to join my group but then I notice that I forgot to fix the level range on it and now I have to kick them. It still also defaults to 'epic' instead of warlock. It's been years now guys. C'mon. Why is it taking so long to fix this?
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  2. #2
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    wow, just wow.

    I don't weather to cry or cyber-slap you.

    Definite -1 either way. IBTL


  3. #3
    Community Member zehnvhex's Avatar
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    Probably cry. U38 is shaping up to be that big of a disappointment. Right now the best part of it is them fixing them breaking recalling in Barovia.
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  4. #4
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    Pretty nice update, dig the quests they are quite fun. not bad rxp. looking forward to the release.
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  5. #5
    Bwest Fwiends Memnir's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lagin View Post
    I don't weather to cry or cyber-slap you.
    This may be a case of "don't shoot the messenger,".

    Granted, I haven't played on Llama in a long time... a long time. But, I haven't heard a lot of positive things about the new U from the folks who have. It's not all DOOOOOOM!. But nothing has been glowing with praise, either. In the past, warning-sign posts like these have been more on the money than not.

    I'm not going to form any opinions until I've played it. But at the same point in time, my anticipation is tempered somewhat by those that already have. And I appreciate that in advance.
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  6. #6
    Community Member SpartanKiller13's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by zehnvhex View Post
    U38 is not ready.
    Artificer Renegade Mastermaker is being designed to be obsolete before it even hits live. A bunch of SLA's that will never see the light of day, single target melee attacks that are bad against the only mobs in the game you build for single target melee attacks. Currently the only build anybody has put forth that is remotely respectable is an extremely niche tanking build specifically for Baba.
    I was considering a /4 arti dip for the Reconstruct SLA available in early heroics? Comes with a neat Haste boost built in. Just doesn't seem like it'll be cost-effective without Arti levels. I agree, so far I'm not impressed :P

    Monk nerfs.

    Look, I love monk nerfs but they pulled to the left way too much on this one. You don't nerf an end game build by neutering lowbie abilities when you have perfectly viable capstone abilities you could have nerfed instead. Melee aren't exactly the bees knees in heroics right now and they chopped out the lowbie legs out from under them.
    I think they should have shifted power from the easily accessible 20-30 MP with a 3-6 level dip to higher cores and it would be fine. Nerf is a bit too much, but Monk dipping for melee power was a bit too much also.

    The important thing though is that /6 fighter didn't get touched. 20 mp and +1 crit is still just fine!
    Technically can get 20 MP and +1 crit from /5 fighter if you're using T5, but Core 3 (Fighter 6) gets the other +1 crit. Monk costs 6 AP and 3 levels for the melee power... I'm plotting around an Animal domain Silvanus build for 14/6 Cleric/Fighter built around that exact mechanic.
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    Quote Originally Posted by zehnvhex View Post
    Warlock is basically a ghetto Shiradi Sorc. You gives up some of the damage and self sustain for the ability to just hold down left click and yolo blast your way to victory.
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    It's DDO. There are probably 6 different types of Evil damage.

  7. #7
    Community Member LeoLionxxx's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by zehnvhex View Post

    Druid cats are dead. Just..yeah. Dead. I get that since we're nerfing monks we don't want to simultaneously accidentally create a new end game meta build but holy guacamole guys.
    Do you... do you mean wolf form? Not sure how one could mistake a long-snouted wolf for a kitty-cat. I heard the bear attack animation was made to look more like that of a cat.

    Anyhow, cats and dogs aside, here are the Lam General discussion forms for you to post this in: https://www.ddo.com/forums/forumdisp...nia-Discussion
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    DDO is bug free, I assure you.
    That's not lag, it's just DDO trying to become turn-based again.

  8. #8
    Community Member zehnvhex's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Memnir View Post
    I'm not going to form any opinions until I've played it.
    And I don't except anyone to do otherwise.

    It's just...Let's look at recent history.

    In 2017 they reform under SSG. Right out the gate we get:

    - Tower of Frost
    - Newcomers
    - Black and blue

    Not exactly a stellar lineup. Later on we get Mines of Tethyamar. The dungeon quality went way up and the loot was pretty good. However, they shot themselves in the foot something fierce and made the mobs -way- overtuned at level 15 and the XP is still bad even after they adjusted it. Basically a dead pack now.

    So with Ravenloft on the horizon I was a little concerned. I knew they could make good dungeons, but could they tie it all together? And lo and behold with C1 and C2 at least they knocked it out of the park. C3 feels a little rushed still but hey, nobody is perfect. Good loot, great content, the xp is on point with a saga making up for any shortcomings, difficulty was just about right, length was good, everything just great.

    So now I know what they are capable of and that's why I'm so salty and so disappointed. Disciples of Rage is not made by the SSG that made Ravenloft. This is the SSG that made Tower of Frost and Newcomers. I don't want that SSG, they can keep him.

    Battle Engineer is a good, fun tree. Arcanotechnician is a good, fun tree. Renegade Mastermaker is....not. It's not a good healing tree, it's not a good support tree, it's not a good tanking tree, it's not a good "I'll splash a little into it just to grab..." tree. It's just not good.

    They can do better. I know they can. I don't get upset with my four year old wets the bed because I love him. But he's also only 4. I love DDO but DDO is 12 years old now. They can stop wetting the bed.
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  9. #9
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    So it is just like every update in the last 10 years.

    Whats the surprise?

  10. #10
    Community Member glmfw1's Avatar
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    If the update is not ready, it shouldn't be released.

    Major flaws should be fixed before release.
    Minor flaws with appearance, mob monotony etc should be fixed before released.
    Potential flaws with classes/enhancements should be playtested more... and if they are not sure what to do to fix them, but know a changes may need to be made, say so in Release notes... e.g. Warlock is getting +100 to every spellpower and Melee Power. This may be increased to as much as +101 in a future update if it is not powerful enough or reduced to as much as +0 if playtesting proves it is overpowered.

    If quests are boring and/or derivative, say what you believe would be better. It might not impact this update (other than mob makeup and improved visuals), but it could impact the quests in the next update. What would you put instead of the {admittedly repetitive} spiral? Jumping down is not an issue, but getting up a vertical rise in a cave with low jump skill limits the options.
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  11. #11
    Community Member Qhualor's Avatar
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    I don't think any update has ever been "ready" if you go by the forums.

    as long as I'm on a TR train, the only things I ever really look forward to is content and any positive fixes or changes to gameplay. basically this update I look forward to the fix to two weapon fighting and the persistent sound that follows you when you leave certain Eveningstar quests.

    I don't play monks (other than for past lives which my current characters already did several years ago) and druids, but in the next 20 years when I'm done with past lives I want to start playing one.

    the named loot I probably wont care about until I'm ready to start playing end game and by then the loot will be weak compared to the new loot at that time or DDO will be shut down. CC gear is perfectly fine in the meantime.

    the content I'll run at least once to check it out. I never had the chance to log onto Lama to see for myself, but the xp isn't going to decide if I play the content for me. I run Tethyamar on hard every life, but that's just banked xp to get me closer to next level making it pretty quick to cap when I do take level 18. out of 5 quests, that's like a rank and a half. for level 14 quests, that's just more banked xp that basically would replace not playing GOP and Fleshmakers now that I hardly see lfms for them or can get a group together for them now with permanent flagging. if I do play them every life than depending on how much xp it is, I could just skip quests like Tethyamar and Acid Wit.

    I'm not thrilled with adding MP to core destinies. its the easy fix while tackling core problems like enhancements and other things that the devs seem to resort to when buffing or nerfing are more time consuming and can sway the balance power too much. what I would like to see is cleaning up the different bonuses in the game. I don't need another embarrassing incident of going by wiki and in game descriptions as an argument when they are not accurate. its been out of hand for awhile and obviously getting confusing with what stacks and what doesn't and what the bonuses do. it was cleaned up years ago because there were too many bonuses and it was getting confusing, but I think its time again to do that.
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  12. #12
    Community Member PermaBanned's Avatar
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    Still applying the Preperation H from just reading and considering the impacts of the Henshin nerfs. Gotta love how "reining in the outliers" hurts the flavor builds more than the outliers. GMoF Henshin build will have ~the same performance post update it has now, but it'll perform worse in Dreadnaught post update than it does now; I guess that's how they make GMoF "more appealing" with it's MP boost?

    Top end Shintaos are (per their testing) the highest DPS in the game by an exessively high margin, and Henshin the lowest performing Monk (per same testing); so nerfing both and widening the performance gap between Shintao and Henshin is obviously the right call here too, right?

    Testing indicates Henshin is the highest non-Monk DPS, the testers' play experience contradicts their own testing; obviously the right call is to ignore their play experience and make the testing look better, right?

    Don't even want to look deeper into the update than that; too disappointed already. See sig.
    I would still like to see... Something that tests character versatility and player adaptability rather than character focus strength and quest knowledge.
    I play the quests for the content of the quests not just as an XP/min merry-go-round.
    Actual play experience is worth infinitely more than theorycrafting...

  13. #13
    Bwest Fwiends Memnir's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by zehnvhex View Post
    It's just...Let's look at recent history.
    I'm not doubting you, or in any way trying to minimize your post. I appreciate it that you made it, and in no way am arguing over it. Your arguments are valid, well reasoned, and not just knee-jerk reactions.

    It's not just their recent history, either. There is a reason why I gave up playing on the preview server and submitting bug reports. Turbine/SSG has, in my view, a long history of releasing flawed updates, sometimes deeply flawed, in the face of lots of evidence here on the forums detailing those flaws and how they could be fixed. Fixes they make later on anyway. They don't seem to take what is said here very seriously. Yes, they will from time to time... but nothing consistent.

    I take every impending update with a ginormous grain of salt. And I don't for a second doubt that you mean it's not ready. Posts like yours reinforce that grain of salt, even if I hold my final evaluation until I've played it myself.
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  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by glmfw1 View Post
    if the update is not ready, it shouldn't be released.
    roflmao

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by zehnvhex View Post
    U38 is not ready.
    ...
    Artificer/Druid passes are not ready.
    As someone not too interested in melee builds, I really have no opinion either way on the Wolf/Bear stuff, and I'm willing to give (some) benefit of the doubt to the when they say they actually tested Monk DPS and found it way out of line with other melee.

    But what they're doing to caster Druids is despicable. Multiple nerfs to DCs & spell pen, with no explanation, or even acknowledgement, of the problem given at all.

    At least the Monk nerfs have a detailed rationale, whether you agree with it or not. The caster Druid nerfs have just appeared for no reason and received no dev commentary.
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  16. #16
    Community Member Chai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by zehnvhex View Post

    Monk nerfs.

    Look, I love monk nerfs but they pulled to the left way too much on this one. You don't nerf an end game build by neutering lowbie abilities when you have perfectly viable capstone abilities you could have nerfed instead. Melee aren't exactly the bees knees in heroics right now and they chopped out the lowbie legs out from under them.

    When they brought people back to work on Ravenloft they must have brought back the guy that really hates monk splashes. "Monk hybrids? Not on my watch!" This is what, the third time now you guys have murdered X/X monk builds? The important thing though is that /6 fighter didn't get touched. 20 mp and +1 crit is still just fine!

    Everyone can agree that monks were quite a bit out of touch in the cap game but if you're going to nerf a class in favor of some nebulous 'future buffs we pinky swears' you might want to at least showcase some of those future-buffs or at the very least...nerf the right thing.
    This is what happens each time the usual suspects demand nerfs. They guy who hates monk splashes gave the forumites who hate melee being in the META what they wanted, but once again we observe that while they get what they asked for non specifically, this wont stop them from complaining about the specifics. As the lesson hasnt sunk in after eleventy twelve repetitions of this pattern occurring, it will likely happen again...

    ...and again.

    ...and again.

    ...echoes off into infinity.

  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by LeoLionxxx View Post
    Do you... do you mean wolf form? Not sure how one could mistake a long-snouted wolf for a kitty-cat. I heard the bear attack animation was made to look more like that of a cat.

    Anyhow, cats and dogs aside, here are the Lam General discussion forms for you to post this in: https://www.ddo.com/forums/forumdisp...nia-Discussion
    That comment threw me for a loop as well. Seems to be a transposition, meant to refer to casters.

    Unfortunately, I have to agree with the cut and paste comments regarding the quests. And the nerf to Monks is a little worrisome, as Monks seem to be the only melees that keeping up with casters in many PuGs these days.

  18. #18
    Community Member SerPounce's Avatar
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    Most of the actual reviews of the quests were positive. There were a bunch of very similar looking posts from throw-aways saying that they hear the quests were bad. There were similar posts with Ravenloft and that turned out to be some of the bests DDO quests ever. I'd play them yourself before jumping to conclusions.

    Arty tree looks pretty good.

    Druid is coming along, but needs polish and tuning.
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  19. #19
    Community Member lLockehart's Avatar
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    It's the standard around here but it's still disheartening to see players withdraw themselves to the slightest criticism and take that as doom and gloom, as if the game has a good track record in regard to these things.

    I agree with everything except the sarcastic example of further nerfing Warlock where I do still think that it's an oppressive class with the only unique tree (Soul eater) being hilariously underpowered on the Dot mechanics. It's just awkward that Warlocks are the prime tanking class and/or with the most consistent spell damage. Being a PVE game I don't really care much but I'm content that they at least nerfed it a little back when it came out, I was excelling at the highest content with WASD, you still kinda do tbh but I don't mind as much, it's more of an arcane pass overhaul that's needed to buff Sorc/Wiz back into the game outside of CC spamming.

    But it highlights our main problem where we discarded roles a long time ago and it's cool that everything is in some way, shape or form playable but they do need their place somewhere - it's understandable they don't want to give Wolf Druid too much Dps but as they are now... they're useless so where's the line drawn, what are they supposed to be, off healers with physical Dps? should they deal less damage than Paladins or Swashies? like, what's unique about them? we don't define class identities that much. Same with Meleeficer, I'm pumped to try my hand at them but... what are they, the ultimate jack of all trades with reasonable CC and light dps? It feels like Runearms should really do something else that defines the class or some end game, machine popping that offers more than 5 mrr/prr and while the new capstone is incredibly interesting (95% dmg reduction for the entire party) to perhaps help in some raid mechanic.. I don't think it's nearly enough.

    The monk nerfs were duo to Duality of course but from what I can tell, they sized the opportunity to rectify the (and let's be real) ridiculous 10 power/core that can be easily splashed, especially with Ftr that also has ridiculous good early value on their trees. The ugly part is that many builds were obviously built around this and they may want out and I'm pretty sure SSG isn't going to hand out X+ hearts to every player with the Monk/Ftr/_ splash (Though at some level they should.)
    Vannila 20 Monks will be fine and I really can't understand the outcry for losing some melee power, I'd say we need a Wis To-hit & Dmg tree and some Prr as to help newer players dip in the class since only really Vets can pilot Monks well in the late game given all the past lives that lets them run with high Prr whilst having high dodge and to-hit but they're still very doable on a regular player. I would personally leave their Melee power higher on the cores, 18 or 20 but I don't think it's game-breaking enough where they'll stop seeing play.

    One other problem with balancing things in this fashion is that this train-like way of doing things one by one leaves a trail of powercreep since things will be designed for the current content. Swashbuckler has no melee power in its tree, it's quite laughable. After everything's done I think it would be wise to look at Melees as a whole and iron out the classes individually to have a sense of what each one is supposed to do and how high should the numbers go. Same with Ranged and Spell styles.

    And lastly, same with the actual content. I wish the playerbase would be a bit more vocal over these borderline copy-paste module style of content and advocate for an overall polish instead. RL is great but even there, there's items that aren't working. I don't think (and maybe I'm wrong) that the majority of players wouldn't mind relinquishing content for the team to better focus on fixing things, polishing the game and maybe work on re-vitalizing older content to entice new players into the game.

    At the same time, we could really use more 20-26 quests with Npc scripting involved. Epic only. I reach epic lvls only to know I have the Demonweb chain to run as something new. That and the raids that are so scarcely seen on the LFM's. We daily our way to 28-30 and start raiding, that's our very awkward end game. So the focus should, in my opinion, be on three things: Either work on some kind of end game that lets us be at lvl 30 while playing (And I don't mean a barrage of ML 28 quests) work on 20-26 content with memorable, lasting and worthwhile loot or take a time off creating content to polish what's already been done while balancing what's needed.

    I think more of the same with incremental loot really doesn't cut it at this point in 2018. It's always cool to run new content but... it doesn't feel right to me.


    I'll play the angel's advocate on the Spellcaster related loot where I think they're designing them for future content with their pass in mind. I imagine it'll be a big one seeing as we have a bunch of DnD spells where only about 30'ish% of them are of reliable use. Maybe this loot is designed with that pass in mind so it doens't make much sense now. I could be wrong of course, who really knows - Which brings me to my actual last point of there not being barely enough communication.

  20. #20
    Community Member MistaMagic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by zehnvhex View Post
    U38 is not ready.
    That's probably why it has not been released yet, and 10 points for your observation
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