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  1. #81
    Community Member Pilgrim1's Avatar
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    Now that inquister is out I'm going to see how some enhancements shake up. To that extent i have some questions for people who have access to that enhancment tree.

    1) how does double shot work with 2 crossbows.

    2) Can you use a rune arm?

    3) I'm assuming the rate of fire for crossbows is the same as greater cross bows. Is this true? If so I would expect the same rate of fire under endless fusilade to be true.

    4) Is there any functional difference between no-holds barred and endless fusilade?

    Thanks! I'm gonna take a stab at seeing if I can improve the build.
    ATM my assumptions are (1) both get double shot, (2) Yes, (3) no difference, (4) no difference.

  2. #82
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pilgrim1 View Post
    Now that inquister is out I'm going to see how some enhancements shake up. To that extent i have some questions for people who have access to that enhancment tree.

    1) how does double shot work with 2 crossbows.

    2) Can you use a rune arm?

    3) I'm assuming the rate of fire for crossbows is the same as greater cross bows. Is this true? If so I would expect the same rate of fire under endless fusilade to be true.

    4) Is there any functional difference between no-holds barred and endless fusilade?

    Thanks! I'm gonna take a stab at seeing if I can improve the build.
    ATM my assumptions are (1) both get double shot, (2) Yes, (3) no difference, (4) no difference.
    1. Both Crossbows doubleshot independently.

    2. Yes.

    3. I'm not sure how reasonable this assumption is. From my testing, haste and alacrity appear to stack but deliver about half their rated value (tests with Rapid Shot/Reload on a Light Crossbow). Endless Fusilade/No Holds Barred appears to deliver ~40% more attacks. At cap with 30 BAB (~33% greater than 20 BAB), this should give you a theoretical rate of ~260 attacks/minute before Doubleshot while under EF/NHB (~224 sustained without LD).

    4. Doesn't appear to be any difference.

    I can potentially see something like 18/2 FvS/Artificer where you put 41 points in Inquisitive and otherwise just heal/buff. Your dps wouldn't be as good as a pure dps build, but most groups would much rather their healer stand far away while contributing damage. In theory, you could invest in War Soul, but about all you'd get is Smite Weakness and 10% Doubleshot. Note: Smite Weakness only occurs once, no matter how many attacks you get.

    However, I can't really see a decent way to use Inquisitive that doesn't involve going all the way to the capstone. It's simply too difficult to replace the T5 abilities at a comparable cost.

    It's also tough to see options other than Battle Engineer really working out because the other three Crossbow-friendly trees (DWS, Mechanic, Kensai) have virtually all of their power focused in the T5/capstone. A build with 41 + 27 + 8 Inq/BE/Harper consumes virtually all of your AP and delivers performance about as good as you can get between Rune-arm, Extra Action Boost, Endless Fusilade and Agility Engine. Swap out for Mechanic and you lose 10% Doubleshot and Extra Action Boost. Swap out for Ranger and you net 10% Doubleshot (if you can kill enemies) at the expense of 10 Ranged Power and Extra Action Boost. Go with Kensai and you lose the Doubleshot.

    Swashbuckling with a Light Crossbow doesn't really make much sense. If you're equipping a Rune-arm, you're pretty much giving up 5% Doubleshot to get 2% Doubleshot. If you're not using a Rune-arm, you'll net Doubleshot out of the deal, but probably not enough to overcome not using a Rune-arm. Since Bards can't use Charisma with Crossbows, it also means that Bard builds depending on Crossbows don't make much sense.

  3. #83
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pilgrim1 View Post
    Now that inquister is out I'm going to see how some enhancements shake up. To that extent i have some questions for people who have access to that enhancment tree.

    1) how does double shot work with 2 crossbows.

    2) Can you use a rune arm?

    3) I'm assuming the rate of fire for crossbows is the same as greater cross bows. Is this true? If so I would expect the same rate of fire under endless fusilade to be true.

    4) Is there any functional difference between no-holds barred and endless fusilade?

    Thanks! I'm gonna take a stab at seeing if I can improve the build.
    ATM my assumptions are (1) both get double shot, (2) Yes, (3) no difference, (4) no difference.
    Everything works the same. 18rogue/2arti or 17/3 is the top deeps split and it's a solid 20-40% better than the current fusi build on top of having way more goodies in the tree. Capstone in Inq/8ap in Harper/rest where you see fit between Mech and BE.

    Can layer Inq on other classes but they'll be for flavor.

  4. #84
    Community Member Pilgrim1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hjarki View Post
    ..snip...
    Quote Originally Posted by Emerge2012 View Post
    ...Snip...
    Thank you both for the information and ideas. I'm leaning similarly in those directions. From a pure damage perspective I expect having 13+ levels of rogue to maximize SA is likely strongest. Something to think about however is is the number of action boost charges available. It might be viable to go barb/arti/fight with a bonus AB race to get a total of 26 possible AB.

    My gut tells me that going duel crossbows will provide significantly more DPS then a single greater xbow due to 2x the rate of fire. Of course there is raid light crossbow. I expect that to change with sharn however. Another option is to just keep the existing split and dip 2 AP into inquisitor to pick up duel xbows.

    I really like the option of going FvS and picking up a strong ranged boss DPS while maintain stat consolation to keep strong DC. The same is true for wizard. Those builds are for a different post tho!

  5. #85
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    Quote Originally Posted by Emerge2012 View Post
    Everything works the same. 18rogue/2arti or 17/3 is the top deeps split and it's a solid 20-40% better than the current fusi build on top of having way more goodies in the tree. Capstone in Inq/8ap in Harper/rest where you see fit between Mech and BE.
    With X/2 Rogue/Artificer, you're either going 11 AP in BE or 0 AP in BE.

    You'll probably go 3 AP in TA. Your Mechanic choices are 0, 11 or 24 AP.

    If you choose 0 AP for Mechanic, then you'll go 12 AP for Harper, otherwise 8 AP.

    Since the extra action boost are nearly mandatory, we'll start with 41 + 11 + 8 = 60.

    That puts 24 in Mechanic out-of-reach.

    Now, instead of those last 4 levels of Rogue, we'll take 4 levels of Ranger. 6 points in DWS gives us back the +2d6 Sneak Attack we just lost, plus an additional d6 from Stealthy (which is arguably a wash since we could have grabbed a die from T3 Mechanic). We also save ourselves two feats (Rapid Shot, Precise Shot). We also get +2 damage from level 1 Ranger spells. You'll also have +25 point blank shot/sneak attack range.

    In theory, you could go with 6 levels of Ranger and re-arrange some points to get Sniper Shot, but that's not as directly comparable.

    17/3 doesn't make a lot of sense compared to 17/2/1 Fighter, which saves you 4 AP on EAB vs. Battle Engineer and gives you a free feat.

    16/4 is also worth considering. With 41 + 27 (BE) + 12 (Harper), you're sacrificing a single Sneak Attack die to get a feat, +10% Doubleshot and +10 Ranged Power. And, of course, 16 Rogue isn't any better than 15 Rogue so you might as well take a stray level in Fighter for the feat or Barbarian for the run speed. The 15/4/1 configuration also has the advantage of permitting the effective use of Color Spray (since you're probably a Gnome/Deep Gnome anyway) if you've got the racial AP to pay for it.

    Moreover, once you're at 15/4/1, it should be apparent that 13/6/1 is even better. You lose a die of Sneak Attack, but you no longer need Strategic Combat II so you can spend those 4 AP you just saved to buy back the die of Sneak Attack from Mechanic (with 1 AP left over).

    There's also an argument to be made for a heavy Artificer split to grab Deadly. Those +9d6 from Rogue are nice for 0 AP, but throwing Deadly on your entire raid is likely more aggregate damage.
    Last edited by Hjarki; 03-29-2019 at 05:35 PM.

  6. #86
    Community Member Mindos's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hjarki View Post
    Now, instead of those last 4 levels of Rogue, we'll take 4 levels of Ranger.

    it should be apparent that 13/6/1 is even better. You lose a die of Sneak Attack, but you no longer need Strategic Combat II so you can spend those 4 AP you just saved to buy back the die of Sneak Attack from Mechanic (with 1 AP left over)
    So which do you think is better? 14Rogue/4Ranger/2Arti or 13Rogue/6Arti/1Fighter?


  7. #87
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mindos View Post
    So which do you think is better? 14Rogue/4Ranger/2Arti or 13Rogue/6Arti/1Fighter?
    The Great Crossbow build was what might be termed an 'obvious' build. It was anchored on Endless Fusilade, T5 Mechanic and Strike with no Thought. Once you got those key abilities, there was almost nothing left to do with the build.

    Inquisitive is far more flexible. If we (for reasons discussed above) set Inquisitive at 41 of our AP and demand at least two levels of Artificer (for Rune-arm), we're left with a lot of options - and many of them aren't directly comparable.

    First, I'd probably go with 13/6/1 with Barbarian rather than Fighter - I value the +10% movement speed more than the feat. The drawback of this approach would be that you can't re-shuffle AP if you find you need more Action Boosts.

    In terms of the two approaches, I think it really depends on how much you value Sneak Attack range. If you've played the Great Crossbow build and you're just throwing around ideas, it's fairly easy to overlook the fact that you just lost half your Sneak Attack range by not going to T5/Core #4 on Mechanic.

    However, I was less recommending a specific build than I was pointing out that a naive 18/2 or 17/3 approach was almost certainly sub-optimal.

  8. #88
    Community Member Pilgrim1's Avatar
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    A fast re-tool of the current fusilade build/split using t5 mechanic enhancements gives:

    (best weapon atm is morninglord heavy crossbow 5[1d10+2], 19-20x2

    Mechanic:
    +15m SA range
    +8d6 SA
    +2[W] (14 damage)
    +14 damage
    +20 Ranged Power
    +10% Double shot
    30% alacrity
    stacking bleed on crit

    Battle Engineer:
    +7 damage
    +10% double shot
    Fusilage
    Damage boost
    3 action boosts

    Kensi:
    3% double shot
    +1 crit multiplier (profile in LD: 16-20x3)
    +4 damage
    +3 extra action boost


    Compared to Inquisitor (41 AP):
    +1/+1 threat/multiplier (profile in LD: 15-20x3)
    +35 ranged power
    +16d8 Law Dice
    +6 damage
    25% fort bypass?
    +15% double shot
    +30 alacrity

    The biggest losses are the double shot, extra action boosts, SA range, and flat damage loss (33 less damage per hit). The gains are the law dice (better than SA Dice) and the ranged power.

    Some options
    8 AP into Harper and a 70 int modifier gives +15 damage back.
    4 AP into war priest in FvS with mostly FvS levels gives the same
    6 AP into EK gets upto 6d6 elemental dice.
    9 AP into FB and ravager from 2 barb gives +3 AB, +6 attack/damage (furious rage)
    As mentioned above 6 levels of ranger can net some SA, range, and damage, if you go 23 points killer for 20% double shot.
    Going 27 points into BE nets you all the above stuff and +10 ranged power.

    Question: does lethality (lvl 18 core assassin) 1 handed weapon count crossbows as 1 handed?

    Warforged can pick up +15 ranged power and +[0.5] weapon dice.
    Elf races give upto +6% accuracy
    dragonborn and half orc give +3 bonus AB.

    I worry about dropping to fewer action boosts than I currently have on this build. Yes you might be able to get more damage but having more AB is much stronger in harder quests and raids then a few more points of damage. Going All In on BE (27 AP) puts us into the similar place as before, can we get enough AP to run know the and get enough action boosts.

    Builds:

    Build 1:
    13 rogue/6 BE (insightful damage)/1fighter

    41 points inquisitive
    24 points BE (lose 10% double shot)
    7 Harper (tear 2 KTA)

    the 13 rogue gives 7+3 SA dice, improved evasion, and skills.

    Build 2:
    14 FvS, 4 arti, 2 fighter

    41 inquisitive
    27 BE
    4 war priest (divine might)

    FvS gives wis/charisma to attack/dmg, heal and buff spells, divine power, and 140 free HP.

    Build 3:
    2 barb/2 fighter/16 arti

    41 inquisitive
    9 barb trees
    7 Kensi
    8 harper
    11 BE
    4+12 racial (15 RP + [0.5W])

    this gives a self reconstructing toon with deadly weapons and 23 action boosts.

    Build 4:
    18fighter/2 arti?

    41 inquisitive
    31 Kensi
    8 harper

    lvl 18 fighter core gives +20 ranged power. lots of bonus damage in kensi tree, extra feats can go to ranged power or HP.

    I don't think its impossible to run run t5 Mechanic and just dip a few AP into inquisitor for duel xbows, in fact that's probably the easiest way of converting a existing build to increase damage. However for a max DPS build it sure looks like that going 41 into inquisitive is the rout to take. Unfortunately most of the goodies that give big boosts to damage are t4 which really makes things difficult as we need action boost bonuses and a damage/hit modifier for xbows.

    Thoughts?

  9. #89
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    - Divine Will/Presence from War Soul do not affect ranged attacks. Divine Might does affect ranged attacks... as long as they use Strength for damage (which Crossbows do not).
    - Raging on a trapper is problematic
    - Lethality is only for melee weapons
    - In terms of race, Gnome/Deep Gnome have the virtue of being short. Large races sometimes have issues with being unable to hit targets that smaller races could. Color Spray is also incredibly potent on a ranged build since it prevents you from getting swamped and piles up a lot of helpless targets in the path of your IPS as you gun down distant enemies.
    - A cheap way to get 'Extra Action Boosts' is to simply take another action boost. Melee/Ranged Power isn't as good as Endless Fusilade, but you can use it when you don't need as much damage and save the EF for the times where you do need the damage. Doubleshot Boost is probably the second-best Action Boost after Endless Fusilade, but it requires otherwise pointless Bard levels.

  10. #90
    Community Member DrawingGuy's Avatar
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    I've been running an Inq with a 12 Rogue / 6 Ranger / 2 Arti split. My AP spend is 41 Inq / 25 DWS / 12 Harper / 3 TA (I did get the expansion with the extra AP). It has been tearing up low reaper heroics and epics, though the real test will come in end game once I hit 30 later today.

    Obviously this breaks from the "Never Ending Fusilade" as the loss of 6 ABs is enough to end the reliance on pure fusilade in longer quests and raids. Snagging a different boost from LD gives you an easy filler, and while it is an obvious DPS loss, throwing an RP boost for small groups and fusilade for the bigger groups and bosses works well. Though you can give up 12 AP in DWS to afford the 3 boosts from BE.

    I've been enjoying the deeper spend into DWS as Sniper Shot, Aimed Shot, and Merciful Shot all give you something to do and make it much more fun to play than just holding down the left mouse button and pointing. Sniper Shot also gives you your SA when you are not rolling with a Deception item. Between attack spam and a Sniper > Merciful combo, it is easy to maintain Killer for the extra 20% Doubleshot while trash killing, though that does sadly fall off for boss fights. Even at 10% DS and 10 RP loss, I do expect the DWS moves to keep it ahead of a T4 BE spend (that is until you run out of Fusilades and BE still has 3 to go). DWS also has an important thing that should not be forgotten: SA/PBS range. The original build gets an extra 15m from Mechanic, and my split gets it from DWS. If you go with a spend that forgoes this, you WILL feel the pain of that loss. I'd drop a point into the first core of Mechanic if I could afford it, but at least the extra 15m is still enough for most fighting situations.
    Pinc Punch - Unarmed Monk (Uber Completionist) // Porc the Orc - Paladin // Thunderborn - Warlock // Imustbe Emo - PewPew Rogue // Aquamine Artifact - Crafting Artificer (shelved)

  11. #91
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    This is a very nice build. What do those who play it do for things with slashing DR? Some RL monsters have absurd DRs like 275, and on high skull reapers (8+) I seem only do more than 0 damage when I crit. Any tips?

  12. #92
    Community Member Pilgrim1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Purgatorii View Post
    This is a very nice build. What do those who play it do for things with slashing DR? Some RL monsters have absurd DRs like 275, and on high skull reapers (8+) I seem only do more than 0 damage when I crit. Any tips?
    Cry.

    In all seriousness those are zombies which are so annoying to kill. The plus side is they are very susceptible to web and glitter dust traps as well as kitting. Elementals with stupid high dr can also be a huge pain. Mostly i just power through them using kitting or teammates.

    I wonder if a no dc mass frog would get zombies? Im guessing no?

  13. #93
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    Default I use slightly different lv path....

    1 rogue
    2 arti
    3 arti
    4 arti
    5 rogue
    6 rogue
    7 arti
    8 rogue
    9 fighter
    10 fighter imp crit
    11 rogue
    12 rogue
    13 fighter
    14 fighter ips
    15 rogue
    16 rogue
    17 fighter
    18 fighter
    19 rogue
    20 rouge
    with inquisiter line might be different with a tr and rogue salvage arrows, dont need conjure arrow when 20 stacks in tr stash.

    arti for ranger
    Last edited by mishraif; 05-18-2019 at 05:20 AM.

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