Page 1 of 20 1234511 ... LastLast
Results 1 to 20 of 400
  1. #1
    Community Member Avocado's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Posts
    486

    Default Duality, The Moral Compass - do you know what class balance means?

    http://ddowiki.com/page/Itemuality,_the_Moral_Compass Here is the item. It turned monks into the new fighters. It essentially triples monk base damage. A pure 20 monk with these and dance of flowers gets 15.25 (W). A normal handwrap would average at 3.5 * 13.25 = 46.375 damage and a 5% crit x2 crit chance. The moral compass gets (3.5 + 6) * 15.25 = 141 damage and a 5% x2. 46 vs. 141. is a little over 3x the base damage.

    Recommendations: Drop the die of the weapon to +2 instead of +6 (so 1d6+2). This still leaves monks getting 20 (w) getting and extra at least 60 damage (way more with all that melee power). Drop the melee power boost from rare prowess filigrees to +40. It's clear that a top player soloing LH shroud should seem some balancing.

    It rather disheartening to see videos like this myself, while I could create a toon capable of that dps rather easily, I dont want to. Not because I dont want the dps, but I dont find it fair or fun. Their is a reason I mainly play cc builds and rogues. CC builds mainly because it makes me feel useful and everyone likes cc because it makes content generally more fun and easier. Melees arent dieing, things arent being kited, you feel the power or your op handwraps, etc. Rogues because the skill requirement to play them well is unmatched and only a few players manage to play them at this level. 5 players on my particular server have that level of competence.

    I have sufficiently been convinced this game should be balanced around the top 1% of players. Nerfing things affects the least amount of players in this case. The top 1% are the only players that are really going to notice a change in damage. I have seen this so many times in game where things are placed in game to give newer players a bit more power and to make past lives less relevant. While its intended effect is achieved, it also makes it so the top players with the most knowledge will get the most gain out buffing classes. With these handwraps scaling monks up to a whole new level of game breaking power, past lives are irrelevant.
    Last edited by MousePointer; 01-04-2018 at 02:41 AM.

  2. #2
    Master Assassin nokowi's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2013
    Posts
    5,865

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by MousePointer View Post
    http://ddowiki.com/page/Itemuality,_the_Moral_Compass Here is the item. It turned monks into the new fighters. It essentially triples monk base damage. A pure 20 monk with these and dance of flowers gets 15.25 (W). A normal handwrap would average at 3.5 * 13.25 = 46.375 damage and a 5% crit x2 crit chance. The moral compass gets (3.5 + 6) * 15.25 = 141 damage and a 10% x2. 46 vs. 141. is a little over 3x the base damage.

    I don't know that the devs have a clear understanding of what balance means.

    That is all.
    From the outside looking in (non active player), their solution to melee in reaper seems to be to crank up the dps rather than to let melee interact in ways similar to ranged/caster (getting a response time to make decisions).

    Go attack non-moving mobs and you should be fine.

    In the past, many of us tired of the (hold,auto-crit) play style pretty quickly - even if we used it extensively to rack up kill counts.

    Mark of Death had some nice mechanics that didn't insta kill you, but would kill you if you didn't pay attention. That's the type of game mechanic that worked well for both melee and ranged mobs, and this is an example of the type of mechanic that should exist within a challenge setting.
    Last edited by nokowi; 12-29-2017 at 10:58 PM.

  3. #3
    Community Member Avocado's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Posts
    486

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by nokowi View Post
    From the outside looking in (non active player), their solution to melee in reaper seems to be to crank up the dps rather than to let melee interact in ways similar to ranged/caster (getting a response time to make decisions).

    Go attack non-moving mobs and you should be fine.

    In the past, many of us tired of the (hold,auto-crit) play style pretty quickly - even if we used it extensively to rack up kill counts.

    Mark of Death had some nice mechanics that didn't insta kill you, but would kill you if you didn't pay attention. That's the type of game mechanic that worked well for both melee and ranged mobs, and this is an example of the type of mechanic that should exist within a challenge setting.
    Yes, that is clearly their approach and it is the wrong approach. The right approach is to add mechanics that test players critical thinking skills, not their button pressing speed or damage numbers.

  4. #4
    Community Member janave's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2009
    Posts
    3,495

    Default

    The raid weapons are unbalanced.

    I personally think gear should be detached from class balancing formulas entirely, the reason is that every (player) character wants amazing gear. Imagine how people feel when they still stuck to use LGS, TF (or even more outdated stuff - without sentience slotting - ) for their next best option. Maybe, it could be time to unnerf mortal fear at this point, so people who didn’t get a balanced* raid weapon option can look for an alternative.

    It would have been fair to use a system to the damage in the dice for each weapon. It is somewhat unfair that some come with 30%, others 100% and a few in between.

    d( n )+( n * .5 )

    eg: d6+3 for the wraps.
    ## great sword would have to be an exception, but it is already in some sense, id have made it with an exceptional 1d12 dice to use the formula systematically, with a "why adapt the system around a few exceptions?" philosophy.

    The weapons should be balanced by their base profiles already, and to lesser extent by the synergy class trees that using them.

    As for the additional effects:
    The Bow next to the Shuriken or Great Xbow is quite garbage for example, both shuris and xbow builds now leave bow users behind by a fat margin in the current meta, why buff them even further by gear?.

    It really does feel bad to be stuck with the inferior stuff in this game, every time your meta !== the current Development favorite.

  5. #5
    Community Member the_one_dwarfforged's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2013
    Location
    I'm in your head, bro.
    Posts
    1,770

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by MousePointer View Post
    lol

    Quote Originally Posted by MousePointer View Post

    I don't know that the devs have a clear understanding of what balance means.
    u r just realizing this now?
    Quote Originally Posted by Cordovan View Post
    By the way, sorry for the folks I dropped the death cube on. Except I'm not sorry.
    Quote Originally Posted by DDOTalk71 View Post
    Due to the rising costs of OlladraCare, the Coin Lords laid off Mari and outsourced her job to foreigners.

    #MakeStormreachGreatAgain
    Quote Originally Posted by changelingamuck View Post
    Class balance isn't a black-or-white...issue...

  6. #6
    Community Member seskie1's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Posts
    320

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by MousePointer View Post
    http://ddowiki.com/page/Itemuality,_the_Moral_Compass Here is the item. It turned monks into the new fighters. It essentially triples monk base damage. A pure 20 monk with these and dance of flowers gets 15.25 (W). A normal handwrap would average at 3.5 * 13.25 = 46.375 damage and a 5% crit x2 crit chance. The moral compass gets (3.5 + 6) * 15.25 = 141 damage and a 10% x2. 46 vs. 141. is a little over 3x the base damage.

    I don't know that the devs have a clear understanding of what balance means.

    That is all.
    Try about 22-24W.
    Singhalicious, Sohnilicous, Shernilicious, Sohnalicious

    Dat dips brah

  7. #7
    Community Member Vish's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2006
    Location
    Too Stoned AZ
    Posts
    2,110

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by MousePointer View Post

    That is all.
    wo hoo!

    Go get em cowboys!

    Didn't you know?
    Monks ran for president last year,
    And they won!

    So now you got 4 years of monks being the top dog!
    Or until they get impeached...

    But really,
    The sneak is in on all weapons
    All that free ml29 loot?
    Ya, all 50-100% adds on dps
    So it's across the board boost,
    Not just a moral thing

    Besides, who wants to play a Shintao?
    Vishantii (the bird man)
    Kil (heroic and epic completionist)

    Sarlona, Heart of Wisdom

  8. #8
    Community Member JoeShmo's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2009
    Posts
    175

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by MousePointer View Post
    http://ddowiki.com/page/Itemuality,_the_Moral_Compass Here is the item. It turned monks into the new fighters. It essentially triples monk base damage. A pure 20 monk with these and dance of flowers gets 15.25 (W). A normal handwrap would average at 3.5 * 13.25 = 46.375 damage and a 5% crit x2 crit chance. The moral compass gets (3.5 + 6) * 15.25 = 141 damage and a 10% x2. 46 vs. 141. is a little over 3x the base damage.

    I don't know that the devs have a clear understanding of what balance means.

    That is all.
    It's called power creep my friend. If you look at all the new Ravenloft items, not just the weapons, they all, for the most part, excel above and beyond anything that we had available previously. Also, all the raid weapons, for the most part, blow their previous counterparts out of the water. It's why there's an incentive to run the raids and why people use timers on them, because they need the new weapons, not because they would be nice to have.

  9. #9
    Community Member
    Join Date
    Dec 2017
    Posts
    75

    Default

    nerfing monks is generally the solution to most problems.

    Nerf the heck out of throwers while you're at it.

    Barbs also need to do more damage, buff them.
    Last edited by Hjeal_meh; 12-30-2017 at 09:45 AM.

  10. #10
    Community Member
    Join Date
    Dec 2017
    Posts
    75

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by nokowi View Post
    From the outside looking in (non active player), their solution to melee in reaper seems to be to crank up the dps rather than to let melee interact in ways similar to ranged/caster (getting a response time to make decisions).

    Go attack non-moving mobs and you should be fine.

    In the past, many of us tired of the (hold,auto-crit) play style pretty quickly - even if we used it extensively to rack up kill counts.

    Mark of Death had some nice mechanics that didn't insta kill you, but would kill you if you didn't pay attention. That's the type of game mechanic that worked well for both melee and ranged mobs, and this is an example of the type of mechanic that should exist within a challenge setting.
    I'm sure this has been brought up to death, but the self-healing debuff is most brutal to melees.

  11. #11
    Community Member HastyPudding's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Posts
    2,681

    Default

    Normally I'd poo poo this thread, but my level 30 pure monk guildie has a 246 base damage rating on the moral compass handwraps. He also kills the training dummy in 1-2 hits. I'd call that just a bit unbalanced.
    Primary Home: Argonnessen
    Also known as: Archarias, Ishtaris, Arthies, Artharias, Astanius, and Fidgity.
    "Elder brains are a lot like bouncy castles. They just sit there, but if you jump up and down on them, things get interesting real quick." ~FlimsyFirewood

  12. #12
    Community Member JoeShmo's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2009
    Posts
    175

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by HastyPudding View Post
    Normally I'd poo poo this thread, but my level 30 pure monk guildie has a 246 base damage rating on the moral compass handwraps. He also kills the training dummy in 1-2 hits. I'd call that just a bit unbalanced.
    Well I see that as awesome! This is a team game, there are no ladders for rankings to show off who has the better character. If monks are super strong now, time to roll up a monk and see how fun they are! I've never understood the "better nerf because too strong" argument, why not buff other things instead to make them stronger too?

  13. #13
    Community Member Yamani's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2010
    Location
    Somewhere in the states
    Posts
    943

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by HastyPudding View Post
    Normally I'd poo poo this thread, but my level 30 pure monk guildie has a 246 base damage rating on the moral compass handwraps. He also kills the training dummy in 1-2 hits. I'd call that just a bit unbalanced.
    Now I'm curious as to why can't you 1-2 hit the training dummy at level 30.

  14. #14
    Founder Spoondoggy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Location
    Pennsylvania
    Posts
    139

    Default

    Ahh this thread is cracking me up so hard right now LMFAO
    Proud Officer of Reaper Casual

    Mystwalker-Pathwalker-Totemwalker-Skinwalker-Foewalker

  15. #15
    Founder & Super Hero Arkat's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Location
    Wyoming
    Posts
    7,681

    Default

    Monks, for so long the red-headed stepchildren of DDO, get a nice Raid weapon and people freak out.

    Yep, about what I expected.

    Thanks for not letting me down, certain members of the DDO Forum community!

    I can always count on some of you to overreact to just about anything.




    P.S. Is the sky falling yet?
    Last edited by Arkat; 12-30-2017 at 12:51 PM.
    The heart of the wise inclines to the right, but the heart of the fool to the left. - Ecclesiastes 10:2 (NIV)

    Quote Originally Posted by Lynnabel View Post
    Hi Welcome

  16. #16
    Community Member Avocado's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Posts
    486

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by JoeShmo View Post
    It's called power creep my friend. If you look at all the new Ravenloft items, not just the weapons, they all, for the most part, excel above and beyond anything that we had available previously. Also, all the raid weapons, for the most part, blow their previous counterparts out of the water. It's why there's an incentive to run the raids and why people use timers on them, because they need the new weapons, not because they would be nice to have.
    Yes, and the creep on this weapon is far beyond that of any other weapon considering the amount of w die monks get and their twf attack speed. How come bows didnt get a +6 on their raid weapon? They are two handed. Even if the handwraps were +3 they would still be worth running the raid for. The devs have no understanding of what classes need what.

    It seems impossible to reason with people's damage epeen from this thread. Laugh away as the game crumbles from poor dev choices.

  17. #17
    Community Member Avocado's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Posts
    486

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by JoeShmo View Post
    Well I see that as awesome! This is a team game, there are no ladders for rankings to show off who has the better character. If monks are super strong now, time to roll up a monk and see how fun they are! I've never understood the "better nerf because too strong" argument, why not buff other things instead to make them stronger too?
    Been there. Tried that argument. Never worked. Its not a team game, its about who can get the most kills and has the highest dps.

  18. #18
    Community Member J1NG's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    Posts
    2,307

    Default

    Hmmm, maybe I'm missing something. But my Monk 20 only has 13.3 [W] with Duality and in GMoF here. Can you break down the numbers for that?

    J1NG
    Thelanis: Yijing (*Completionist* TR 20 Aasimar Scourge Monk Level 20 / Epic Level 10)
    Thelanis: Pocket-Monks: Sightblur, Peashoote, Jigglypath.
    Invisible Fences, unkillable Target Practice Dummy's, Shared Bank's, Pale Lavender Ioun Stones, the dimensional barrier between Eberron and Shavarath, I've broken them all...

  19. #19
    Community Member
    Join Date
    Jun 2010
    Posts
    4,169

    Default

    The rot with game balance really took hold with the enhancement pass, then the increases in power that came from gear changes shortly after. We were well into the class passes before there seemed to be any developer realisation of how much stronger it made our characters and what effect that might have on the game.

    Reaper was a very petulant response by the developers to people who pointed out how badly messed-up difficulty in the game had become due to the company's poor decisions. I get the impression they thought it didn't matter what they did balance-wise after reaper was introduced. because if we wanted challenge we could always just crank up the skulls, right? Wrong. It may be better than having nothing harder than elite, but it's a long way from being a good solution.

    Apart from a handful of quests and raids, the main challenge reaper now offers better players now is short-manning or playing with suboptimal groups. And because of the very shallow and stupid way they chose to increase difficulty, twiddling the incoming and outgoing damage and healing suppression knobs even more won't make the slightest bit of difference. They didn't understand that how they decided to make the game more difficult didn't really make that much of a difference and designed themselves into a corner with their 'solution'.

    This is one area of the game that has totally eroded my confidence in the developers. Both in their understanding of how difficulty in their own game works and the social consequences of making these changes. It's like they've just abandoned any effort to balance their own game. And the obvious dumbness of adding ten more difficulty settings to the game and then trying to present it as an improvement, when it wasn't even a good solution to a problem entirely of the developers' own making, just beggars belief.

    For what it's worth, I do think class balance matters in a PVE game. If you're playing a class that is perceived to be weaker you may have trouble getting into certain groups, as we've seen in this game's history before. Players shouldn't have to choose between playing the type of character they like and playing one which is significantly stronger than others.

    And yes, I was really surprised at how much stronger even the morninglord weapons were, let alone the ones from the raid. But at this point the choices are to lump it and keep playing or leave. Because there is absolutely no sign at all the powers that be recognise just how silly this is all getting.

    Thanks.
    Astrican on Khyber

  20. #20
    Community Member
    Join Date
    Dec 2017
    Posts
    75

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by blerkington View Post
    The rot with game balance really took hold with the enhancement pass, then the increases in power that came from gear changes shortly after. We were well into the class passes before there seemed to be any developer realisation of how much stronger it made our characters and what effect that might have on the game.

    Reaper was a very petulant response by the developers to people who pointed out how badly messed-up difficulty in the game had become due to the company's poor decisions. I get the impression they thought it didn't matter what they did balance-wise after reaper was introduced. because if we wanted challenge we could always just crank up the skulls, right? Wrong. It may be better than having nothing harder than elite, but it's a long way from being a good solution.

    Apart from a handful of quests and raids, the main challenge reaper now offers better players now is short-manning or playing with suboptimal groups. And because of the very shallow and stupid way they chose to increase difficulty, twiddling the incoming and outgoing damage and healing suppression knobs even more won't make the slightest bit of difference. They didn't understand that how they decided to make the game more difficult didn't really make that much of a difference and designed themselves into a corner with their 'solution'.

    This is one area of the game that has totally eroded my confidence in the developers. Both in their understanding of how difficulty in their own game works and the social consequences of making these changes. It's like they've just abandoned any effort to balance their own game. And the obvious dumbness of adding ten more difficulty settings to the game and then trying to present it as an improvement, when it wasn't even a good solution to a problem entirely of the developers' own making, just beggars belief.

    For what it's worth, I do think class balance matters in a PVE game. If you're playing a class that is perceived to be weaker you may have trouble getting into certain groups, as we've seen in this game's history before. Players shouldn't have to choose between playing the type of character they like and playing one which is significantly stronger than others.

    And yes, I was really surprised at how much stronger even the morninglord weapons were, let alone the ones from the raid. But at this point the choices are to lump it and keep playing or leave. Because there is absolutely no sign at all the powers that be recognise just how silly this is all getting.

    Thanks.
    Great post.

    The ML weapons beat the previous best in slot weapons - though they are ML 29 and the ESOS and Balizarde are many years old.

    Class balance does matter in a PVE game.

    Reaper is fun for the most part. I wish there would revisit some of the mechanics, particularly those overly punishing to melee builds (especially self healers - I can't even find a Bladeforged melee on a milk carton anymore). Being about to dial in what your group can handle (or you're in the mood for) is a wonderful feature. The trees were a bad idea, as was additional XP but it is what it is.

    Make run speed 50% when moving backwards - that'll be hysterical.

Page 1 of 20 1234511 ... LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  

This form's session has expired. You need to reload the page.

Reload