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  1. #1
    Community Member Satyriasys's Avatar
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    Default Give Wizards/Sorcs 4x more sp

    There is no reason other than flavor and roleplaying to play anything other than a Warlock. Every Warlock life I do I can easily roll any content on reaper solo with no thought, gear, or planning. Give Wizards and Sorcs 4x the sp they currently have and they will be a hair closer to Warlocks in viability, still way behind but it would help close the gap in power just a bit.
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  2. #2
    Community Member LevelJ's Avatar
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    I would have to disagree on this one. Spell points are meant to be a limiting factor on casters because, when equipped right, their DPS is quite high, at least from a sorcerer's perspective. My sorcerer is not even close to having optimal DPS, yet he still does considerable amounts of damage per hit, enough to hold his own with better equipped Warlocks. The spell point pool he has is also quite good. It may encourage a player to be cautious with their spell points and hunt down spell point restoration items like the Bauble...I would argue the "pew pew pew" method of warlocks is not what Sorcerers were ever expected to be doing. If Sorcerers had 4x spell points then they would be the ones who are broken, because there would literally be no reason not to have all metamagics on 100% of the time.

    As for Wizards...the CC capacity of Wizard is not much different than Warlock. 4x Spell points do very little for that, unless you think Wizards should primarily be DPS or something.

    Spell points are not merely a lore or flavor thing, but rather a key tool that players must learn how to manage well. Warlocks may win at the long game, but in moments where high damage is concerned or need for a variety of crowd control options, I think Sorcerers and Wizards respectively will be far more useful. The only thing I could see Wizards and Sorcerers benefiting from is better defensive spells to compensate for (but not stack with) a lack of medium armor.

    -Jayron


  3. #3
    Hero JOTMON's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Satyriasys View Post
    There is no reason other than flavor and roleplaying to play anything other than a Warlock. Every Warlock life I do I can easily roll any content on reaper solo with no thought, gear, or planning. Give Wizards and Sorcs 4x the sp they currently have and they will be a hair closer to Warlocks in viability, still way behind but it would help close the gap in power just a bit.
    No.
    Multiplying mana pools is silly.
    We have in game and DDO store options for mana and even personal rest shrines and Mnemonic clickies.


    Instead..

    1. Give better options to enhance things like Echoes of Power where casters can regen more mana.
    Enhancement tree tiers to build up to a permanent Mana regen..

    2. Caster Enhancement tree spells that rely on cooldowns not Mana

    3. In game items that regen mana.. not the bs temp SP stuff they have been throwing around lately.
    variations and upgrades of things like Vile Blasphomy..

    4. Better Mana pot drops in game.. in-game Mnemonic's haven't evolved beyond Majors back in 2009.
    Even in Epic and Legendary content its the same singular rare chance drop of 1 pot... should be seeing better versions like Superiors and multiples..

    5. Concordant-opposition items.. change these back to independent proc's not shared,
    change the proc so that you get mana instead of taking damage when hit(converts the incoming damage with a loss ratio conversion to Mana.. making mana regen less effective on low damage hits)
    add a knockdown side effect when it does proc (cant cast or melee..)

    6. other in game options to help casters..
    Jotmon -
    Guild: Degenerate Matter - 200
    Argo-Jotmon(HC 28/42,EC 26/36,IC 17/15,RC 14/30), Jotlock(HC 38/42,EC 36/36,IC 15/15, RC 0/30)..
    and several once viable raiding alts dumped into the packmule stables..

    Update 24: Champions... "whew, it's ok, it's only a red name" .. sad day when trash spawn Champions and their one-shot ignore fort attacks instill more party fear than the Red named bosses.
    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    Too bad I 'purchased' maximum character slots for my account, SSG has now chosen to cater the giveaway perks to benefit multiple freebie accounts instead of the paying customers.

  4. #4
    Community Member Satyriasys's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LevelJ View Post
    Spell points are not merely a lore or flavor thing, but rather a key tool that players must learn how to manage well. Warlocks may win at the long game, but in moments where high damage is concerned or need for a variety of crowd control options, I think Sorcerers and Wizards respectively will be far more useful. The only thing I could see Wizards and Sorcerers benefiting from is better defensive spells to compensate for (but not stack with) a lack of medium armor.

    -Jayron
    It's not. SP is a MMO thing and has nothing to do with D&D. Your Sorc may have slightly more burst than a Warlock but a Warlock can use Eldritch burst ad nauseum, long after you are out of sp. Effectively soling any and all content they wish while Sorcs and Wizard have to sit back waiting for a group.


    Quote Originally Posted by JOTMON View Post
    No.
    Multiplying mana pools is silly.
    We have in game and DDO store options for mana and even personal rest shrines and Mnemonic clickies.


    Instead..

    1. Give better options to enhance things like Echoes of Power where casters can regen more mana.
    Enhancement tree tiers to build up to a permanent Mana regen..

    2. Caster Enhancement tree spells that rely on cooldowns not Mana

    3. In game items that regen mana.. not the bs temp SP stuff they have been throwing around lately.
    variations and upgrades of things like Vile Blasphomy..

    4. Better Mana pot drops in game.. in-game Mnemonic's haven't evolved beyond Majors back in 2009.
    Even in Epic and Legendary content its the same singular rare chance drop of 1 pot... should be seeing better versions like Superiors and multiples..

    6. other in game options to help casters..
    These are solid suggestions. Mine is not perhaps the most elegant but effective and easy. I would be down for any of these because the situation now is seriously broken. Also, I am not talking about endgame I am talking about 1-20. Wizards and Sorcs feel pretty solid in a full group at cap. Aside from that they are pretty useless.
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  5. #5
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    Super unnecessary. My recent experience with Wizards and Sorcs is that the Devs have already given them access to more SP than they need. I certainly don't feel constrained by it. Any moe and they might as well abolish the concept entirely.

    AS for Warlocks have as many arcane blasts as they want - hardly any different from a melee toon have as many sword/axe/hammers swings as they like, or ranged characters having functionally unlimited arrows and bolts.

  6. #6
    Community Member Chai's Avatar
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    Warlocks.jpg

  7. #7
    Community Member Satyriasys's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nadion View Post
    Super unnecessary. My recent experience with Wizards and Sorcs is that the Devs have already given them access to more SP than they need. I certainly don't feel constrained by it. Any moe and they might as well abolish the concept entirely.
    I have to ask if you have ever played DDO because this comment is completely untrue in every way. I would like to see you solo Tear of Dhakan at level on a Wizard with no pots. Now try with a Warlock, it's like mowing the lawn (with a riding mower)

    Quote Originally Posted by Chai View Post
    Warlocks.jpg
    Great comment as always Chai. Your insights are such a welcome addition to the DDO community. I think you have given us all a lot to think about.
    Last edited by Satyriasys; 11-08-2017 at 04:55 PM.
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  8. #8

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    Or just make warlocks eldritch blast cost 1sp /shot

    Burst and blast should cost 4/6 sp respectivly too.

    Seems like it would balance a lot of the warlock issues.

  9. #9
    Hero JOTMON's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by apocaladle View Post
    Or just make warlocks eldritch blast cost 1sp /shot

    Burst and blast should cost 4/6 sp respectivly too.

    Seems like it would balance a lot of the warlock issues.
    no.

    The core Eldritch does not use mana. ever. thats canon.

    The eldritch attack is like using a weapon..
    adding mana to eldritch is like requiring mana to swing a melee weapon.
    Last edited by JOTMON; 11-08-2017 at 05:07 PM.
    Jotmon -
    Guild: Degenerate Matter - 200
    Argo-Jotmon(HC 28/42,EC 26/36,IC 17/15,RC 14/30), Jotlock(HC 38/42,EC 36/36,IC 15/15, RC 0/30)..
    and several once viable raiding alts dumped into the packmule stables..

    Update 24: Champions... "whew, it's ok, it's only a red name" .. sad day when trash spawn Champions and their one-shot ignore fort attacks instill more party fear than the Red named bosses.
    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    Too bad I 'purchased' maximum character slots for my account, SSG has now chosen to cater the giveaway perks to benefit multiple freebie accounts instead of the paying customers.

  10. #10
    Community Member Satyriasys's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JOTMON View Post
    no.

    The core Eldritch does not use mana. ever. thats canon.

    The eldritch attack is like using a weapon..
    adding mana to eldritch is like requiring mana to swing a melee weapon.






    Sorcs, Clerics, Wizards and all other casters don't use mana either. So why should Warlocks get this exception? SP is an MMO interpretation of a magic user's limitations (number of spells). Warlocks did not recieve any limitations and therefore are god damn broken and have detroyed the game.
    Last edited by Satyriasys; 11-08-2017 at 04:48 PM.
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  11. #11
    Intergalactic Space Crusader
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    Default Good Shrine Managment

    Helps allot.

    Look at the signature of this poster, https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthrea...=1#post5579078

    Now tht's allot of Spell Points, but not surprising since she's really good at the game.

  12. #12

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    Quote Originally Posted by JOTMON View Post
    no.

    The core Eldritch does not use mana. ever. thats canon.

    The eldritch attack is like using a weapon..
    adding mana to eldritch is like requiring mana to swing a melee weapon.




    If you are talking canon than they should make clerics, druids and wizards stomp everything and make most other classes way underpowered.

    https://rpg.stackexchange.com/questi...-is-each-class

    3.5 was never remotely close to balanced.

  13. #13
    Hero JOTMON's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Satyriasys View Post
    Sorcs, Clerics, Wizards and all other casters don't use mana either. So why should Warlocks get this exception? SP is an MMO interpretation of a magic user's limitations (number of spells). Warlocks did not recieve any limitations and therefore are god damn broken and have detroyed the game.
    Jotmon -
    Guild: Degenerate Matter - 200
    Argo-Jotmon(HC 28/42,EC 26/36,IC 17/15,RC 14/30), Jotlock(HC 38/42,EC 36/36,IC 15/15, RC 0/30)..
    and several once viable raiding alts dumped into the packmule stables..

    Update 24: Champions... "whew, it's ok, it's only a red name" .. sad day when trash spawn Champions and their one-shot ignore fort attacks instill more party fear than the Red named bosses.
    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    Too bad I 'purchased' maximum character slots for my account, SSG has now chosen to cater the giveaway perks to benefit multiple freebie accounts instead of the paying customers.

  14. #14
    The Hatchery Enoach's Avatar
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    Couple clarifications...

    First the idea of Spell Points is actually an alternate rule developed and used with the 3.5 ruleset. It's intent was to speed up the game and remove the limit of n# of spells per level by giving a player the option to spend their points and not worry about running out of spells of a particular level.

    ----
    As a long time player of Wizard (Since 2006), what I can tell you is that there are many ways to play a wizard very effectively even with a limited spell point pool. Since I grew up in the early ages of DDO I have learned and mastered several methods to stretch my spell point pool be it running solo or in a group.

    Today we have SLAs that have higher cooldowns but cost a lot less to cast, especially with Metamagic involved.

    What I usually find when I work with a player who finds themselves running out of spell points consistently before the next shrine/end is that they usually suffer from one or more of the following

    1. The need to cast at every mob
    This is more an issue when running with a group. Keep in mind when you feel you have to cast a 30+ spell point spell at a mob that would be dead in one to two swings this is a conscious attitude that you don't trust the other players can pull their weight.

    2. Poor spell choices
    There are lots of players that simply set their spells once and never change them. This can lead to having spells that target specific saves which means at certain times your DCs basically suck vs the strongest save of a mob. Or damage type, from using what they are immune to or even just heavily resistant.

    3. Poor use of Metamagic
    This could be as simple as having Empower/Maximize turned on always and forever, or even more subtle as over using Heighten (I think many casters might be surprised at how often they use heighten and it is not needed). We players actually have a powerful tool through the right click menu to help manage this, such as creating a hotbar with multiple versions of metas set.

    I've even run into a situation where a caster had quicken on for 1 min/level buffs that they only passed out when outside of combat.

    4. Poor understanding of what buffs are needed
    Now before ship buffs could give you 30 resist for 1 hour, one common drain on a caster would be applying all the elemental resists to all party members. Not only was this a waste of spell points as at most you would need 2 but mostly just 1, but it was a waste of time and resources as other buffs ticked away.


    So no, I don't agree that Wizards and Sorcerers need 4x the spell points.

  15. #15
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    4x SP is absurd. And Wiz/Sorc is an absurd list. What about the other 3 full primary caster classes?
    Quote Originally Posted by Vargouille View Post
    As a general rule we don't intend for a single spawn area to cause any dungeon alert, and certainly not red dungeon alert. This basically isn't ever a goal in our designs

  16. #16
    Community Member Satyriasys's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Enoach View Post
    Couple clarifications...

    First the idea of Spell Points is actually an alternate rule developed and used with the 3.5 ruleset. It's intent was to speed up the game and remove the limit of n# of spells per level by giving a player the option to spend their points and not worry about running out of spells of a particular level.

    ----
    As a long time player of Wizard (Since 2006), what I can tell you is that there are many ways to play a wizard very effectively even with a limited spell point pool. Since I grew up in the early ages of DDO I have learned and mastered several methods to stretch my spell point pool be it running solo or in a group.

    Today we have SLAs that have higher cooldowns but cost a lot less to cast, especially with Metamagic involved.

    What I usually find when I work with a player who finds themselves running out of spell points consistently before the next shrine/end is that they usually suffer from one or more of the following

    1. The need to cast at every mob
    This is more an issue when running with a group. Keep in mind when you feel you have to cast a 30+ spell point spell at a mob that would be dead in one to two swings this is a conscious attitude that you don't trust the other players can pull their weight.

    2. Poor spell choices
    There are lots of players that simply set their spells once and never change them. This can lead to having spells that target specific saves which means at certain times your DCs basically suck vs the strongest save of a mob. Or damage type, from using what they are immune to or even just heavily resistant.

    3. Poor use of Metamagic
    This could be as simple as having Empower/Maximize turned on always and forever, or even more subtle as over using Heighten (I think many casters might be surprised at how often they use heighten and it is not needed). We players actually have a powerful tool through the right click menu to help manage this, such as creating a hotbar with multiple versions of metas set.

    I've even run into a situation where a caster had quicken on for 1 min/level buffs that they only passed out when outside of combat.

    4. Poor understanding of what buffs are needed
    Now before ship buffs could give you 30 resist for 1 hour, one common drain on a caster would be applying all the elemental resists to all party members. Not only was this a waste of spell points as at most you would need 2 but mostly just 1, but it was a waste of time and resources as other buffs ticked away.


    So no, I don't agree that Wizards and Sorcerers need 4x the spell points.
    Post a video of you soloing Tear of Dhakaan at level on r1 because doing it on a Warlock is mindless. Many of us are vets and this information is Magic user 101

    Quote Originally Posted by SirValentine View Post
    4x SP is absurd. And Wiz/Sorc is an absurd list. What about the other 3 full primary caster classes?

    It is absurd but in a climate of absurdity with Warlocks and repeater builds it's exactly what they need to remain relevant.
    Last edited by Satyriasys; 11-08-2017 at 05:36 PM.
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  17. #17
    The Hatchery Enoach's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Satyriasys View Post
    Post a video of you soloing Tear of Dhakaan at level on r1 because doing it on a Warlock is mindless. Many of us are vets and this information is Magic user 101

    ...
    You point out your expected playstyle of "mindless", this is why you feel the Wizard and Sorcerer need more spell points. You appear to approach casters from the ability to do lots of damage all the time, but fail to realize that is not how the classes are built. It is the same mistake players make when they try to play a paladin or barbarian like a fighter, or a druid like a rogue.

    I'm happy you can mindlessly do R1 Tear of Dhakaan with your warlock at level (I'm giving you the benefit that you mean at level 7 and not 9), but I have nothing to prove to you or even the desire to play the "move the goal post" game. We disagree on the need for more SP, I based on my experience, even gave reason why I think so, and you based on yours.

  18. #18
    Community Member PermaBanned's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Satyriasys View Post
    SP is a MMO thing and has nothing to do with D&D. Your Sorc may have slightly more burst than a Warlock but a Warlock can use Eldritch burst ad nauseum, long after you are out of sp. Effectively soling any and all content they wish while Sorcs and Wizard have to sit back waiting for a group.
    In PnP, Sorcs & Wizards have a Spells per Day limitation; in DDO they have a far less limiting SP limitation. In PnP & DDO, Warlocks have no SpD/SP type limitation on their Eldritch Blast.

    The woes of poor implementations won't be fixed with yet moar poor implementations.
    I would still like to see... Something that tests character versatility and player adaptability rather than character focus strength and quest knowledge.
    I play the quests for the content of the quests not just as an XP/min merry-go-round.
    Actual play experience is worth infinitely more than theorycrafting...

  19. #19
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    Wizards, Sorcs, and other casters need sp regen, not more sp. Having unlimited sp would be a bad game design, but running out of sp is also a bad game design that makes the game boring no matter how big of a sp pool you start with.

    sp regen for casters is the only way to make it work which is why almost every other game in the world does it that way. I'd actually cut sorc's sp pool to be half that of a wizard's, but then give them higher sp regen.

    Think about it ... if sp regen existed since launch then none of us would be saying "Yar, I want to permanently run out of mana during boss fights!!!! Get rid of sp regen NOW!!!!!!!"

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Satyriasys View Post
    There is no reason other than flavor and roleplaying to play anything other than a Warlock. Every Warlock life I do I can easily roll any content on reaper solo with no thought, gear, or planning. Give Wizards and Sorcs 4x the sp they currently have and they will be a hair closer to Warlocks in viability, still way behind but it would help close the gap in power just a bit.
    +1 but not only to wizards and sorc and not x4,give to druid cleric also and give x2
    someone will say casters is overpower but is over power only for 2-3% of the population to the old and really good players
    what about new players or old players that they dont have tons of past lifes and sp pots?those clases is unplayable for non top players and some times also for top players,a normal player can not even solo elite after hit 10 level with out use sp pots and the sp pots is only available on ddo store,it will be a miracle if someone find more than 2 in a hole heroic life
    and yes i dont care what will hapen if the top players that is only 2-3% of the caster population take the advantage of the more sp,anyway they are top allready

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