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  1. #1
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    Default Vistani Knife Thrower

    Vistani Knife Thrower.

    I am trying to put it all together and work it all out.
    I got bored during Malbar and farmed the spectral throwing knife in levels 4,8,12,16,20. Sitting in the bank. The force damage on crit could be a fun thing to work with.

    Is it viable compared to Monk Shuri builds?
    To get VKF capstone means 41 + of your 80 enhancement points. What other enhancements do you look for?
    What feats help?
    What classes help?

    Feats at least seem obvious and listed elsewhere on the forums.
    Point Blank Shot, Precision, Precise Shot, Improved Precise Shot, Quick Draw, Rapid Shot, Improved Crit (Throwing)Weapon Focus/Specialisation and Improved, Greater

    I am under the understanding that throwing is +dex to hit and +str for damage. That's messy straight away.
    Can someone please confirm that I don't need to take Weapon Finesse for Throwing Daggers please?
    Asslings get +dex to damage throwing, so do Assassin and Deepwood.
    Deepwood Snipers and Mechanics get extensions to Point Blank Range which is cool. Both also get some generic ranged attack bonuses which do work with thrown knives.
    Elves (anf Half) also get minor PBS range increase.
    Bards get some thrown bonus enhancements, but Single Weapon Fighting doesnt work, which means no dex to damage among other things.
    Kensai Light Blades is the option for throwing knives, and lots of feats from fighter.
    Lots of sneak attack dice sounds like fun in anyone's language. Half Elf Rogue Dili if not Rogue maybe?
    What about shields, since your stuck with one single handed weapon, are shields mandatory?
    Monk Adept/Master/Grand of Forms could be useful with Attack Speed and Doublestrike bonuses too.

    So what does a decent knife thrower build look like? Race/class for a start, and what enhancements are you looking for ?
    I seem to be leaning towards Half Elf (Rogue Dili) Ranger (DWS) and VKF

    I cant be the only one out there thinking about this?
    Last edited by dave_todd; 10-29-2017 at 07:53 AM.

  2. #2
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    If someone let's you know I'd be interested too. I've been tinkering all sorts of ways, but for heroic levelling I end up melee, bow, xbow depending on what class/race with which I'm playing around.. Just to remind myself I rolled a new lvl 4 drow 1rog/3monk shuriken thrower and immediately started getting the occasional 3x hit. It's frustrating me that throwing daggers are so bleh. Also, you can drop quickdraw as a feat choice and get it from vistani tree.

    Just for hell of it I started an arti from level 1 to build as a thrower. The dog and the korthos rune arm I think was doing much better than the dagger so I was mostly firing off the rune arm in the harbor hoping I was aimed right for autoattack.
    Last edited by hombokai; 10-29-2017 at 03:03 AM.

  3. #3
    Build Constructionist unbongwah's Avatar
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    Swashbuckler, Mechanic, Kensei, and Deepwood Stalker all have ranged DPS bonuses. In particular, Swashbuckling's crit range bonus is doubled by IC:Thrown but Vistani's is not; plus it's not a tier-5 ability so it doesn't conflict w/Vistani's. For epics I'm presuming Adrenaline + Sniper Shot will still be the way to go. So I was thinking bard 3 / rgr 6 to start: 41 VKF / 11 Swashbuckler (Dashing Scoundrel for +10% doubleshot) / 11 DWS (Sniper Shot). AFAIK, Deadly Blades only centers you with melee daggers (i.e., throwing daggers still aren't ki weapons), so I don't see any point in adding monk to a knife thrower build.

    Feats will be the usual: PBS, Rapid Shot, Precise Shot, IPS, IC:Thrown, Overwhelming Crit, Combat Archery. Quick Draw is free from VKF; and some of those are free from rgr obviously. On a rgr 6 build, I'd probably add in IC:Ranged and use bows w/Manyshot too.

    That's about as far as I've gotten with theorycrafting a knife-thrower, though.
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  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by unbongwah View Post
    Swashbuckler, Mechanic, Kensei, and Deepwood Stalker all have ranged DPS bonuses. In particular, Swashbuckling's crit range bonus is doubled by IC:Thrown but Vistani's is not; plus it's not a tier-5 ability so it doesn't conflict w/Vistani's. For epics I'm presuming Adrenaline + Sniper Shot will still be the way to go. So I was thinking bard 3 / rgr 6 to start: 41 VKF / 11 Swashbuckler (Dashing Scoundrel for +10% doubleshot) / 11 DWS (Sniper Shot). AFAIK, Deadly Blades only centers you with melee daggers (i.e., throwing daggers still aren't ki weapons), so I don't see any point in adding monk to a knife thrower build.

    Feats will be the usual: PBS, Rapid Shot, Precise Shot, IPS, IC:Thrown, Overwhelming Crit, Combat Archery. Quick Draw is free from VKF; and some of those are free from rgr obviously. On a rgr 6 build, I'd probably add in IC:Ranged and use bows w/Manyshot too.

    That's about as far as I've gotten with theorycrafting a knife-thrower, though.
    I didn't pick up on centred only with melee daggers, thanks for that.

    Other wise that's pretty much what i came up with too. A couple of rogue levels for traps sneak dice and evasion, the spare levels on bard or rogue depending.
    I was looking at advanced sneak attack (DWS) and its nice (+1 dice sneak, -10% fort, +5m PBS), but not 6 levels of ranger nice.

    I am also called by the idea of a heavy armour+tower shield tank half orc pally/fighter with throwing daggers just for a laugh, not efficiency.
    I do question just how much weaker it would really be though. Drop sniper shot and dashing, add kensai and then turtle up with sacred defender and vanguard.

    Anyway this is my work in progress :
    First level rogue because always
    2 levels ranger to get improved weapon finesse as fast as reasonable
    second level rogue for evasion
    2 levels ranger to get precise shot
    3 levels bard to get dashing scoundrel
    2 levels ranger to get called shot (sniper)
    then whatever.

    I am really waiting for Character Builder Lite to be updated for VKF. I have read the Dee Ellis posts and understand he is working on a whole new upgrade rather than just a few new data entries atm.


    Thrower
    11/6/3 Rogue/Ranger/Bard
    True Neutral Halfling


    Level Order

    1. Rogue. . . . . .6. Ranger. . . . .11. Ranger . . . . 16. Rogue
    2. Ranger. . . . . 7. Bard . . . . . 12. Rogue. . . . . 17. Rogue
    3. Ranger. . . . . 8. Bard . . . . . 13. Rogue. . . . . 18. Rogue
    4. Rogue. . . . . .9. Bard. . . . . .14. Rogue . . . . .19. Rogue
    5. Ranger. . . . .10. Ranger . . . . 15. Rogue. . . . . 20. Rogue



    Stats
    . . . . . . . .36pt . . Tome . . Level Up
    . . . . . . . .---- . . ---- . . --------
    Strength. . . . .6. . . .+4. . . .4: DEX
    Dexterity . . . 20. . . .+4. . . .8: DEX
    Constitution. . 16. . . .+4. . . 12: DEX
    Intelligence. . 16. . . .+4. . . 16: DEX
    Wisdom. . . . . .8. . . .+4. . . 20: DEX
    Charisma. . . . .8. . . .+4. . .



    Skills
    . . . . .Rg Rn Rn Rg Rn Rn Bd Bd Bd Rn Rn Rg Rg Rg Rg Rg Rg Rg Rg Rg
    . . . . . 1. 2 .3. 4. 5 .6. 7 .8. 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20
    . . . . .------------------------------------------------------------
    Disable . 4. 1 .1. 1. 1 .1. 1 .1. 1 .1. 1 .1 .1 .1 .1 .1 .1 .1 .1 .1 .23
    Open Lo . 4. . . . 1. . . . . . . . . . . . . 1. 4. 5. 4. 1. 1. 1. 1. 23
    Search. . 4. 1 .1. 1. 1 .1. 1 .1. 1 .1. 1 .1 .1 .1 .1 .1 .1 .1 .1 .1 .23
    Spot. . . 4. 1 .1. 1. 1 .1. 1 .1. 1 .1. 1 .1 .1 .1 .1 .1 .1 .1 .1 .1 .23
    Diplo . . 4. . . . 3. . . . . . . . . . . .5 .4 .1 .1 .1 .1 .1 .1 .1 .23
    Jump. . . 4. 1 .1. 1. 1 .1. 1 .1. 1 .1. 1 .1 .1 .1 .1 .1 .1 .1 .1 .1 .23
    Hide. . . 4. 1 .1. 1. 1 .1. 1 .1. 1 .1. 1 .1 .1 .1 .1 .1 .1 .1 .1 .1 .23
    Move Si . 4. 1 .1. 1. 1 .1. 1 .1. 1 .1. 1 .1 .1 .1 .1 .1 .1 .1 .1 .1 .23
    Swim. . . 4. . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 .1. . . . . . . 1. 4. 4. 4. 4. 23
    UMD . . . 4. 1 .1. 1. 1 .1. 1 .1. 1 .1. 1 .1 .1 .1 .1 .1 .1 .1 .1 .1 .23
    Tumble. . 4. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4
    . . . . .------------------------------------------------------------
    . . . . .44. 9 .9 11 .9. 9 10 10 10 10 10 12 12 12 13 13 13 13 13 13



    Feats

    .1. . . . : Point Blank Shot
    .2 Ranger : Favored Enemy: Undead
    .3. . . . : Precision
    .6. . . . : Dodge
    .9. . . . : Mobility
    10 Ranger : Favored Enemy: Evil Outsider
    12. . . . : Improved Critical: Thrown
    15. . . . : Improved Precise Shot
    18. . . . : Shot on the Run
    19 Rogue. : Defensive Roll


    Spells

    Ranger
    1. Entangle, Resist Energy

    Bard
    1. Cure Light Wounds, Sonic Blast, Merfolk's Blessing


    Enhancements (37 of 80 AP)

    Deepwood Stalker (17 AP)
    • Far Shot, Sneak Attack, Sniper Shot
      1. Favored Defense I, Stealthy III
      2. Faster Sneaking III, Improved Weapon Finesse, Melee/Range Power Boost III
      3. Thrill of the Hunt III

    Swashbuckler (17 AP)
    • Confidence, Swashbuckling
      1. On Your Toes III, Blow By Blow: Range III
      2. Double Shot Boost III
      3. Elegant Footwork, Dashing Scoundrel

    Thief-Acrobat (3 AP)
    • Staff Control
      1. Fast Movement
    Last edited by dave_todd; 10-29-2017 at 11:34 PM.

  5. #5
    Community Member Xyfiel's Avatar
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    Anyone know if one cut stacks with vendetta? Working on a Human 18Ftr/1Fvs/1Ranger, 41 VKF, 31 Kensai, 3 War, 5+ racial in human(with enough racial can get stance). Take a ton of weapon x ranged and thrown feats. High cha/str. Go for high basic damage. Up to 5 boosts at once for burst(reaper double, haste, vendetta, one cut, whirling blades). Take manyshot also and mix in rotation.

  6. #6
    Build Constructionist unbongwah's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xyfiel View Post
    Anyone know if one cut stacks with vendetta?
    I didn't get to test it on Lama, but given that Lethality stacks with Vendetta, I would expect OC does too.
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  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xyfiel View Post
    Anyone know if one cut stacks with vendetta? Working on a Human 18Ftr/1Fvs/1Ranger, 41 VKF, 31 Kensai, 3 War, 5+ racial in human(with enough racial can get stance). Take a ton of weapon x ranged and thrown feats. High cha/str. Go for high basic damage. Up to 5 boosts at once for burst(reaper double, haste, vendetta, one cut, whirling blades). Take manyshot also and mix in rotation.
    why ranger?
    fvs(divine might) i get.

    I love the kensai extra action boost. That mixed with Melee/Range Power Boost, Double Shot Boost, and Haste boost is pretty useful.
    How many of the obscene amount of fighter feats were actually useful for you ?
    As i mentioned earlier, Heavy Armour and Shield could be fun

    Manyshot : This feat does not work with thrown weapons : http://ddowiki.com/page/Manyshot
    Last edited by dave_todd; 10-30-2017 at 02:20 AM.

  8. #8
    Community Member Xyfiel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dave_todd View Post
    why ranger?
    fvs(divine might) i get.

    I love the kensai extra action boost. That mixed with Melee/Range Power Boost, Double Shot Boost, and Haste boost is pretty useful.
    How many of the obscene amount of fighter feats were actually useful for you ?
    As i mentioned earlier, Heavy Armour and Shield could be fun

    Manyshot : This feat does not work with thrown weapons : http://ddowiki.com/page/Manyshot
    Ranger is for free bow strength. You would only manyshot with a bow when it was off cooldown. Whirling blades>manyshot>base>whirling blades>base every 2 minutes.
    I am only working on it in my head. Leveling a Druid twf vistani right now.

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xyfiel View Post
    Ranger is for free bow strength. You would only manyshot with a bow when it was off cooldown. Whirling blades>manyshot>base>whirling blades>base every 2 minutes.
    I am only working on it in my head. Leveling a Druid twf vistani right now.
    Awesome, thanks!
    How do you find the melee VKF so far?

    This is what i have come up with so far, not sure about mist stalker V, but it seems too good to skip :

    Tier 0 (6 AP)
    • Knife Expertise 1
    • Knife Juggler 1
    • Knife Specialist 1
    • One With Blades 1
    • Vistani Fortune 1
    • Knife Master 1
    Tier 1 (5 AP)
    • Vistani Knife Training I 1
    • Mist Stalker I 2
    • Rapid Attack 2
    Tier 2 (9 AP)
    • Vistani Knife Training II 2
    • Bleeding Cuts 2
    • Mist Stalker II 2
    • Haste Boost 3
    Tier 3 (8 AP)
    • Vistani Knife Training III 2
    • Mist Stalker III 2
    • Deadly Blades 2
    • Gifted (Dexterity) 2
    Tier 4 (7 AP)
    • Vistani Knife Training IV 2
    • Celerity 1
    • Mist Stalker IV 2
    • Gifted (Dexterity) 2
    Tier 5 (10 AP)
    • Vistani Knife Training V 2
    • Whirling Blades 2
    • Blessed Blades 2
    • Vendetta 2
    • Mist Stalker V 2
    Last edited by dave_todd; 11-01-2017 at 04:05 AM.

  10. #10
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    Well i decided to try my hand at farming a decent Eveningstar Challenge throwing knife : http://ddowiki.com/page/Eveningstar_Challenge_Pack
    4 random knives, all garbage. Not keen to do that again.

    Then i decided to farm Return To Sender : http://ddowiki.com/page/Item:Return_to_Sender
    Almost as tedious, but at least i know what im getting if i ever get one.
    Paralyse and Improved Precise Shot must be useful.
    Last edited by dave_todd; 11-03-2017 at 07:30 AM.

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by dave_todd View Post
    Well i decided to try my hand at farming a decent Eveningstar Challenge throwing knife : http://ddowiki.com/page/Eveningstar_Challenge_Pack
    4 random knives, all garbage. Not keen to do that again.

    Then i decided to farm Return To Sender : http://ddowiki.com/page/Item:Return_to_Sender
    Almost as tedious, but at least i know what im getting if i ever get one.
    Paralyse and Improved Precise Shot must be useful.
    Is the bug fixed?

    Return to Sender did not work with IPS in the past.

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by cestvel View Post
    Is the bug fixed?

    Return to Sender did not work with IPS in the past.
    I had no idea. I still have no idea.
    I cant imagine why it would be different to every other throwing knife.
    I will take a look into it.

    EDIT : still seems bugged and useless. Im glad you told me before many more days of farming junk.
    Last edited by dave_todd; 11-03-2017 at 06:12 PM.

  13. #13
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    Well i must say that i am finding the knife thrower fairly hard work so far getting to 10.
    A fair bit of my enhancements are in non-VKF to be fair.
    But like most ranged its fairly back loaded and slow and painful in early levels.
    Soloing is just horrible.

  14. #14
    Community Member psykopeta's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dave_todd View Post
    Well i must say that i am finding the knife thrower fairly hard work so far getting to 10.
    A fair bit of my enhancements are in non-VKF to be fair.
    But like most ranged its fairly back loaded and slow and painful in early levels.
    Soloing is just horrible.
    When you say ranged toons, you mean shuriken throwers right? Cause they are the only one ranged build baxk loaded

    You should do something ppl use to do with shuri builds at early heroics: go melee (i've seen ppl going melee til 20 and then reset to shuri, not only ap, some peeps even reset feats cause it's a no-no)

    And then, somewhere at 12 or 16, when you have enough AP and a proper throwing weapon, reset enhancements
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  15. #15

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    Quote Originally Posted by dave_todd View Post
    Well i decided to try my hand at farming a decent Eveningstar Challenge throwing knife : http://ddowiki.com/page/Eveningstar_Challenge_Pack
    4 random knives, all garbage. Not keen to do that again.

    Then i decided to farm Return To Sender : http://ddowiki.com/page/Item:Return_to_Sender
    Almost as tedious, but at least i know what im getting if i ever get one.
    Paralyse and Improved Precise Shot must be useful.
    throwers have always suffered in heroics due to the need of whirling wrists and Tenser’s to boost throwing speed.

    The Estar throwing daggers gain spellplague but not sure if that is enough to justify them
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  16. #16
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    I guess what i mean is that when i TR as a melee (for arguements sakes) I have a Min II greensteel great axe and cleave and great cleave and i can wade thru 15 mobs on elite quite easily solo
    I just dont have a throwing weapon like that in throwing (cannith are +2d6 sonic and +2d6 bludgeon to level 9, then +3) and the recent halloween dagger is pretty useless against everything except ghosts and evil outsiders.
    There is no AOE/Splash/Cleave option until i get Improved Precise Shot (long way away yet)
    So many mobs are immune to sneak attack bonuses as well, and 4d6 sneak just isnt that much compared to a warlock geared up and angry.
    Dagger crit ranges are garbage compared to some weapons.
    The VKF line doesnt really give any great until tier 5
    I get virtually no kills in most groups i get in.

    I guess thats just my experience so far, would love to read about how other people are doing it.

    EDIT : I also just found out that attack haste boost and doubleshot boost wont stack, and it feels like the bard swashie stuff isnt kicking in either, but that might just be impressions.
    Last edited by dave_todd; 11-14-2017 at 05:43 AM.

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