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  1. #1
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    Default Ravenloft value calculator

    As much as I like a good rant, I thought I'd try and work out what the value of the different Ravenloft expansion bundles were to me personally. And I've been away in Munich all week and not touched a spreadsheet, so this was a great excuse to knock one up. That's normal for a weekend, right?

    I'll add a link to the Google Sheet version of it so you can work out your own personal value (note that all prices are in GBP so feel free to replace the yellow GBP values with USD, EUR or whatever you like, there's a link to the DDO Market included in the sheet to let you see what the prices are by choosing the flag on the page to change currency).

    Whether I think something is worth paying for is a personal opinion, yours will vary, so you can replace a Y with a N and vice-versa to work out your personal value. For me, some of these like the Vistani Knife Fighter tree has value because I want to have it available regardless of whether I'll actually make heavy use of it I don't attach any value to cosmetic items, shards or res cakes. But like I say, you can make your own judgement on each item individually.

    If you're a Premium player with all content, then the only benefit you get from the VIP options are some DP. If you're already a VIP like me then you get an extension to your existing subscription, so there's 2 ways to work out the value of that. Again, you can specify the value of the 30 and 60 day VIP options in yellow.

    Any item in the bundles that are currently available in the DDO Store, I've simply pulled the price across. Others I've stated assumptions, and some the new items have their prices specified in the Ravenloft FAQ. The one thing that stands out is the Racial Enhancement Tome. I'd comfortably pay the price of a pint to have that on all my characters, but I've defined it as the same price as a Tome of Fate +3. You can argue that because it's available from level 1 (I assume!) it should be worth more, feel free to tweak.

    The upshot for me is that I can see how SSG have worked out the "value" of the bundles and why they can argue that the Collector and Ultimate bundles are good value. For me personally, I'm not quite breaking even, the difference isn't great, and for the sake of getting earlier access to the content before March 2018, I'll go ahead and pay it.

    Feel free to download a copy and have a play around.

    SSG will see from the sales figures what the uptake is on each of the bundles and form a view on whether they've priced these about right. It might be useful for them to have a benchmark to measure why people have either gone for one bundle over another, or haven't been persuaded at all.

    Here's my numbers.

    Code:
    3,890	5,380	10,260	Total TP Cost
    29.02	50.12	94.52	Total Value
    96.77%	83.55%	94.53%	Value Ratio
    Curious what others come up with.

  2. #2
    Community Member Doctorivil's Avatar
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    Nice excell sheet, there's a lot of "assumes" in there tho, specially on the value of exclusive items.
    I agree with you in most of the things you value, the only thing I don't really agree is the value of the Vistani Fighter, I find really hard to put a DDOpoints value in something that you can easely unlock by playing the game.
    Nonetheless very good job on letting people get their own values on the sheet.

    I did a similar exercise, where I tried to compare the value of MoR bundles with previous expansion bundles (just not as costumizable):
    https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthrea...rincing-review
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  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by Doctorivil View Post
    I agree with you in most of the things you value, the only thing I don't really agree is the value of the Vistani Fighter, I find really hard to put a DDOpoints value in something that you can easely unlock by playing the game.
    That's a really good point, I'll add a comment to remind people there's the Favor option.

  4. #4
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    I'm one of the people who thinks the bundles aren't good value.

    My difficulty with attempts to calculate value like this one is the bundles include many items I do not want and will not buy. So using the store price is not an accurate representation of their value to me. It would make no difference if the bundles included 1000 res cakes, character slots, rest shrines, pets and cosmetic items.

    I get the fact that some people do like and would actually pay for this stuff, and I'm happy for them. SSG should have done more for them too, but at least some of us are content with how this turned out.

    The problem is SSG really failed to cater for the less fluff-oriented players this time around and I'm sure it cost them, whether they will admit it or not. Why they weren't less stingy overall and didn't think of people who mainly value progress is a complete mystery to me.

    Thanks.
    Astrican on Khyber

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    Quote Originally Posted by blerkington View Post
    My difficulty with attempts to calculate value like this one is the bundles include many items I do not want and will not buy. So using the store price is not an accurate representation of their value to me.
    That's exactly why there's a "Has value" column in the sheet, so you can say Y or N to items and work out your own personal value. If you enter Y then you get the store value (or an assumed value where we don't have a precise value). If you enter N then that line contributes nothing to your personal value.

    EDIT: Guildie not familiar with Google Sheets just asked a question, so might be worth mentioning, that you need go to into File / Download as if you want to make changes to see your personal value.

  6. #6
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    Excellent utility - great work. A ton has already been said on the expansion so this allows people to plug their own values into items and see what tier they want.


    I am Awesomesauce!

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by Deadlock View Post
    That's exactly why there's a "Has value" column in the sheet, so you can say Y or N to items and work out your own personal value. If you enter Y then you get the store value (or an assumed value where we don't have a precise value). If you enter N then that line contributes nothing to your personal value.
    Most of us can perform these calculations in our heads. It's not a difficult task especially for those of us who see so many zero and near zero value items in the bundles.

    My point again is that these attempts to 'prove' the value of the bundles by assigning the store cost and/or made-up numbers seems a little pointless. If the premise is accepted that everyone puts a different value on these items, then what actually has been accomplished? A column of numbers that will be different for everyone and in fact may as well be random.

    There have been several threads like this so far, and as far as I can tell most are an attempt to talk up the bundles by claiming they offer more value than many of us believe they do. It's the same discussion again and again, just with an attempt to provide additional justification using numbers conjured out of the air.

    Getting the point across to SSG that they've failed a significant portion of their players with how they've done this, and giving them an opportunity to recoup some of that lost money by creating another bundle more in the vein of MOTU seems like a far more productive exercise. There's still time to do it, and people who sprang for the expensive bundle could be issued vouchers so they don't feel ripped off after showing their support early.

    Something that would make this little boy very happy for Christmas would be if SSG stopped shooting itself in the foot like this and took better care of its customers. It's hard to express just how pleased I'd be if I when I read about their decisions on the forums I typically found myself thinking 'well done, and thank you!' rather than 'for pity's sake, not again!'.

    Unfortunately these days it feels far more like being in a relationship with a head injury victim or some bizarre love/hate thing with someone who is spending about half their time coming up with ways to spite us.

    Thanks.
    Last edited by blerkington; 10-21-2017 at 05:26 PM.
    Astrican on Khyber

  8. #8
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    Well, you prob expected this one at some point so might as well drop it now:
    - Supporting the game you love: Priceless!

    But I wonder how the OP is calculating the value of the infinite amount of +1 action point tome for each and every character you ever create?

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by LightBear View Post
    Well, you prob expected this one at some point so might as well drop it now:
    - Supporting the game you love: Priceless!

    But I wonder how the OP is calculating the value of the infinite amount of +1 action point tome for each and every character you ever create?
    One thing I've wondered, is that tome available on all new toons in perpetuity, for extant toons, for certain amount of
    time, or something else?

    Depending on the answer to that, it is possible to calculate the value, and I think that value might be lower than people would guess.

  10. #10
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    Default Funny story

    Quote Originally Posted by blerkington View Post
    ...

    Unfortunately these days it feels far more like being in a relationship with a head injury victim or some bizarre love/hate thing with someone who is spending about half their time coming up with ways to spite us.

    ....
    I was standing outside of SSG's office the other day, and kept seeing this as people exited the buidling


  11. #11
    Community Member Lagin's Avatar
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    While most will appreciate this type of thing, Sorry, no offense I think it's pointless.

    What NOBODY is talking about..... 12 quests.

    WHAT IF these 12 Q's and the raid turn out to be the best content since GH or Vale?

    What if the content provides players with countless hours of real challenge in both Heroic AND Epic?

    What if the loot is spot on? Not OP, and so useful you'll think why didnt we have this before?

    What if the real value your spread sheet can't show us, is that WOW SSG nailed it?

    What if there are things we'll get not being listed in these promos?

    What if there's a class update we weren't told about?

    TOO many variables that aren't being discussed.

    I'm just now getting over "sticker shock" w/ the pricing. To add to that point, last night a great conversation (no whining or crying) w/ me mates proved that we are over-reacting to all of these things we have ZERO CLUE about.

    Thanks for the effort, and all the work, but it's just more of the same jargon in the other 40 threads.

    Ill be buying the top tier as always, I've got no problem with the price structure because of Ravenloft's depth of content and knowing these awesome D20 knuckleheads making it for us are just as passionate about DDO as we all are.
    Last edited by Lagin; 10-21-2017 at 07:41 PM.

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by blerkington View Post
    My point again is that these attempts to 'prove' the value of the bundles by assigning the store cost and/or made-up numbers seems a little pointless. If the premise is accepted that everyone puts a different value on these items, then what actually has been accomplished? A column of numbers that will be different for everyone and in fact may as well be random.

    There have been several threads like this so far, and as far as I can tell most are an attempt to talk up the bundles by claiming they offer more value than many of us believe they do. It's the same discussion again and again, just with an attempt to provide additional justification using numbers conjured out of the air.
    Hi again. I'm sorry that you've misunderstood the reason for me posting this. It does feel as if you're trying to project some deeper meaning into it than was intended.

    I wanted a simple way to calculate for myself what the value of the different bundle options were. I've conjured numbers out of ... the DDO Store ... and the Ravenloft FAQ ... and then made what I consider to be reasonable assumptions on the rest. You're 100% entitled to disagree with my numbers and change them, infact everyone is, that's part of the point of the exercise. You can then make your own comparison using something a smidge more objective and a smidgette less emotional. Of course, if you did all that in your head then I applaud your encyclopedic knowledge of these things. I can see why you would see others taking a moment to ponder these things empirically as being not worthy of your time, but I don't think you are helping if you are trying to dissuade others less gifted from doing so.

    If you're only interested in people joining you in ranting that the whole thing is over-priced and SSG are utterly clueless and don't listen to anyone and have ignored the players who (*insert whichever section of the player population I choose to identify with*), then I'm sorry, I'm not playing that game with you

    My personal opinion is that at face value the top-tier bundle seemed ridiculously overpriced. When I actually ran the numbers (conjured by taking a minute to think as opposed to plucking them out of the Plane of Rantage) then it wasn't as bad as I first thought. That doesn't meant that I'm impressed by the value of the top tier bundles by any stretch of the imagination, I thought that I had made that clear already.

    I offered up a simple tool that can be easily configured by any individual to match their view of things. It doesn't have an alignment

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lagin View Post
    ... lots of what ifs....
    That's the problem, isn't it. Has anyone seen the content?

    If yes, let's hear some (hopefully objective) reviews.

    If no, then what do we have to go on, aside from past experience?

    Recent past experience with content is, at best, a mixed bag. The TOEE design meta has prevailed for some time now, is there really any reason to expect a deviation from that?

    These are honest questions. If you have any answers, please respond.

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by Deadlock View Post
    Hi again. I'm sorry that you've misunderstood the reason for me posting this. It does feel as if you're trying to project some deeper meaning into it than was intended.
    There's no misunderstanding, just a difference of opinion about the value of an exercise where we add up arbitrary numbers that only have subjective value.

    That being said, the more people who buy into this, the better it is for me, you and everyone else. I just wish they'd tried harder to cater to a very obvious demographic, ie, people who are interested in progress. Then they could have had my and other people's money too.

    Thanks.
    Last edited by blerkington; 10-21-2017 at 08:52 PM.
    Astrican on Khyber

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by blerkington View Post
    There's no misunderstanding, just a different opinion about the value of an exercise where we add up arbitrary numbers that only have subjective value.
    Surely the ability to quantify the equivalent DDO Points value to a monetary value make the cost of the bundles objective?

    The only subjective part is whether you value individual items within the bundles, and that's a personal choice. After that, it's just simple arithmetic

    EDIT: I would have given you a +1 rep if you'd replied along the lines of "Lies, damn lies and statistics" as a counter

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    Quote Originally Posted by Deadlock View Post
    Surely the ability to quantify the equivalent DDO Points value to a monetary value make the cost of the bundles objective?

    The only subjective part is whether you value individual items within the bundles, and that's a personal choice. After that, it's just simple arithmetic

    EDIT: I would have given you a +1 rep if you'd replied along the lines of "Lies, damn lies and statistics" as a counter
    And if you'd presented this as a cost, rather than as a value, calculator, this discussion would be a lot less ridiculous.

    The only subjective part of a discussion about value is value? Go figure.

    Thanks.
    Astrican on Khyber

  17. #17
    Community Member Lagin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pyed-Pyper View Post
    . If YOU have any answers, please respond.
    First let me bump the OP's thread and a +1 for taking the time to do this for people. I didnt mean to blast the OP for caring enough to do it, The amount of negativity spurs me on.

    As for this reply....... You being SSG. Dont ever come after a player on the forums for speaking out, that's bad juju.


    I stand by my post. MANY things are in the background we wont know about for another few weeks.

  18. #18

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pyed-Pyper View Post
    Recent past experience with content is, at best, a mixed bag. The TOEE design meta has prevailed for some time now, is there really any reason to expect a deviation from that?
    Possibly.

    Torc, who created great quests (The Pit, I think maybe Crucible, among others) is back on the team, and worked on the design (or made the design?) of Mines Thethyamar. I personally haven't run those quests -- still waiting for a sale -- but I've seen a couple people say they're better than the recent spate of ToEE-style slogs.

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    Quote Originally Posted by EllisDee37 View Post
    Possibly.

    Torc, who created great quests (The Pit, I think maybe Crucible, among others) is back on the team, and worked on the design (or made the design?) of Mines Thethyamar. I personally haven't run those quests -- still waiting for a sale -- but I've seen a couple people say they're better than the recent spate of ToEE-style slogs.
    That's a good point. After MoT was out, Torc was in the forums engaging the posters in a constructive way. It was most refreshing.

    Only time will reveal whether that is an aberration. Yes that is cynical. You see, SSG's dogma ****ed on my kharma.

  20. #20
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    Thumbs up

    Thanks for the sheet, it's led to some interesting discussions and comparisons with a couple friends. Among the fruits of those discussions has been a back & forth regarding the actual value of those VIP months for us dedicated Premiums - especially if held on to for strategic usage

    • 1st there's the monthly point allotments.
    • 2nd is the Weekly Gold Rolls (hard to place an exact value given the RNG nature of results)

    • 3rd is where it got interesting: Races not owned. Going for RPLs (one of us sighting down RCompletionist) and looking at a Race I'm not otherwise interested in playing/owning, a free VIP month gets that taken care of for no cost.

    • 4th is hard to account for VIP perks like the occasional Bonus Days of extra XP for VIPs (nicely paired with the above "races not owned") and/or something like that Alabaster kitty from awhile back.

    And ^that^s just the VIP stuff. Getting into cost/value comparisons between those who like Cakes & Shrines, wether the $hards are valuable to someone etc has netted some new perspectives for a couple of us... Though even still it hasn't fixed the lackluster appeal of the packages, it's at least been a point of amusement. So again, thanks & have a +1
    I would still like to see... Something that tests character versatility and player adaptability rather than character focus strength and quest knowledge.
    I play the quests for the content of the quests not just as an XP/min merry-go-round.
    Actual play experience is worth infinitely more than theorycrafting...

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