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  1. #1
    Community Member Chacka_DDO's Avatar
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    Default Items scaling with your character level and usable from the first level.

    I got the Idea once I farmed Cannith Challenge items. I don't claim at all it is some kind of originally Idea of mine, I can even remember in Ever Quest they tried to introduce such Items and another player told me in World of Warcraft similar items also exits.
    I think this idea is especially obvious for DDO, so I myself have come to it.
    The idea is simple, you have an item and equip it in level one and it does almost nothing for you (as if you equip a minimum level 1 item).
    And if you have this item in level 2 equipped it does more for you (as if you would change your minimum level 1 item to a minimum level 2 item) and so forth.
    The effect is, for example, we have now this 6 items



    And this six items can be replaced by one single item, that would look like this:



    I think it does not even need to show the calculation and this calculation can be the same for every item that provides, for example, a enhancement bonus to strength.
    If these bonuses are consistent is basically also not really important how high it is exactly so you could it keep “secret” and if you interested to know if you can read it up on DDOWIKI then (i am quite sure someone will explain the details there)
    To make it clear, the intention is not to make it easier to attain items. The intention is to make it easier to handle items.
    And this is of course just an example because it tells you not how you can attain such an item.
    I would suggest if you do a level 10 quest, the items, and named items you find there have an Item power level 12 this means the item provides increasing power up to lvl 12. If you are lvl 20 and use this maximum power level 12 item it is the same as if you would use a minimum lvl 12 item with the current system.
    You could increase the maximum level of an item in some kind of barter device, maybe in combination with an experience token for example.
    How you do it exactly is basically not important, I think there could be a lot of ideas to make such items more fun as the items we have now.
    The important part is, such scaling items fits excellently to DDO because you repeat lvl 1-30 over and over again with the reincarnation system and for each level you need Items.
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    i recall a similar request before, and the dev reply was something like: ~once you get the items, you'd be done with gear. how fun would that be, only have 10 items ever. no more gear shifting when you level up. designing new items would be hard. either new item is better or worse.

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    Community Member Chacka_DDO's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cru121 View Post
    i recall a similar request before, and the dev reply was something like: ~once you get the items, you'd be done with gear. how fun would that be, only have 10 items ever. no more gear shifting when you level up. designing new items would be hard. either new item is better or worse.
    And this is exactly not true, am I done with my gear because I got this 6 Items? Obviously not!
    And I made a similar suggestion already years ago. I think before Menace of the Underdark went life.
    Anyway, I think this is something that fits very well to DDO. Maybe it needs some more years but I hope one day we get this. But to get it faster players must also ask for it, and this is what I am doing here.
    Last edited by Hindaekdnd; 10-05-2017 at 04:16 PM.
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    Community Member DaviMOC's Avatar
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    Yeah, I agree its nice and it fits well on DDo. It solves the inventory issues and would be nice to see it evolve. It can be a nice tool for controlling the game balance.

    However I tend to agree to the devs position. In WoW, after the introduction of Heirlooms the dungeon gears got meaningless, the only ones that uses something different are the newbies. At level cap they introduced the amazing Artifact weapons. It got some nice mechanics( similar to what we speculate that persistent weapons would be) however it killed variety loosing the thrill of getting new weapons .

    This kind of mechanics tends to normalize the game experience what could be a heavy drawback special in a game such as DDo that gives you a very wide freedom to build your toon.
    Last edited by DaviMOC; 10-05-2017 at 02:11 PM.

  5. #5
    Community Member Chacka_DDO's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DaviMOC View Post
    Yeah, I agree its nice and it fits well on DDo. It solves the inventory issues and would be nice to see it evolve. It can be a nice tool for controlling the game balance.
    This is the minimum I hope with it, just only to remove the need to have several items, doing basically the same.
    See also the problem with the big gap you have if you see all newer named items with a heroic and an epic/legendary version. You equip an item at level 10 which is basically made too strong for this level (because the developer wants it to be useful for several levels I assume) and then you have to wait for lvl 28 to equip the same but more powerful version of this item. And this lvl 28 item is technically a level 34+ item (because the developer wants them to be useful at least for the last two level in a reincarnation process, which of course I also appreciate).
    This all basically not need, it just remains the question how you get such an item. Out of my sight, at least in the epic/legendary version of a quest, you could get an item scaling from lvl 1-30 with no harm for the game. It is just the question what you can get in the heroic version of a quest? My suggestion would be, you can get an item with a lower Item power that can be upgraded to the same item you get in the legendary/epic version of the quest.
    You could also introduce a mechanics with which you can upgrade items so that they can be slightly stronger than for the level provided. e.g. Item level power 30 +1 Character level (I hope it's clear what I mean. If you equip this item at level 25, your item gives you the power it normally would give to an lvl 26 character and in 30 the power for a level 31 character).
    And of course, an item could get an power jump in lvl 28 or 30 as we are now used to.
    And yes I think if you would have every Item in DDO with such a mechanic, you could make changes to the game balance far easier. Like they changed retroactively the Spell Resistance score on Items. Some very old items were not affected by this change because with the current system it seems to be difficult to do such retroactive changes. Newer items (after the Cannith Crafting overhaul) seem to be more friendly to such changes.

    Quote Originally Posted by DaviMOC View Post
    However I tend to agree to the devs position. In WoW, after the introduction of Heirlooms the dungeon gears got meaningless, the only ones that uses something different are the newbies. At level cap they introduced the amazing Artifact weapons. It got some nice mechanics( similar to what we speculate that persistent weapons would be) however it killed variety loosing the thrill of getting new weapons .
    I have not enough experience with WoW but this sound like the players decided such items are simply better than the others and therefore they use them more. And I don't get why it loose the thrill of getting a new weapon? The key is variety! In DDO you have a lot different weapon types, with a new expansion it is not need to introduce a new even stronger Sword of Shadows for example and sorry exactly this would be boring in my opinion. You could introduce a new awesome scimitar or dagger or something else. and if you once run out of weapon types you can introduce new weapon types.
    The same for every inventory slot. The items must not be stronger, they must be different to be interesting. I call it “Item Tetris” if you plan the equipment for your character. here is a lot of room for fun with items. And you can introduce new but not necessarily stronger effects for Items. (see also this)
    To use an Item from level 1-30 is no contradiction to all this, out of my sight.
    And if you think about old Items would get outdated after this, I fear they are already outdated (like 90% of old named items are just junk now).
    What I suggest is only one step, the next step besides of creating all new items with this system, is to update old items to this system. Take an old item, look what the idea of the original designer of this item was and upgrade it to the new system.
    This all could be even part of a new expansion pack, or you could sell item upgrade packs for old adventure packs. So that the development costs pay off.

    Quote Originally Posted by DaviMOC View Post
    This kind of mechanics tends to normalize the game experience what could be a heavy drawback special in a game such as DDo that gives you a very wide freedom to build your toon.
    I think here I am lost. What do you mean with normalizing the game experience? What are the drawbacks?
    Last edited by Hindaekdnd; 10-05-2017 at 04:16 PM.
    "Act according to a maxim which can be adopted at the same time as a universal law."
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    "Nothing is more fairly distributed than common sense: no one thinks he needs more of it than he already has."
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  6. #6
    Community Member doubledge's Avatar
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    If they implement evolving gear, I'm hoping the gear scales at least 20% slower than top of the line gear.

    This entices players to have specialized, powerful gear, but would let you use generalist, space-efficient gear for other, less important stats.

    For instance, a caster might have a bunch of specialized DC, and Spell Power items, but would have one, scaling Strength (For carrying capacity), saves (You're not going to make saves unless you're building specifically for it), and, say, misc skills like Spellcraft.


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    Seems a bit boring.

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    Community Member bls904c2's Avatar
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    this idea is really bad for loot in the game

    i play on the TR train for the last 36 lives and i have had the same equipment every life from 1-20.

    i have cannith crafted gear at level 2, 5, 10, and 15. because of these sets, i dont think i have opened a chest for 25 of those lives and only started to open chests when the mimic event started.

    once the mimic event is over i dont know if i would open a chest again because there is nothing in it for me.

    i have 9 of my 13 toons plat cap nothing to buy.

    this idea makes my gear of one set instead of having 4 sets. which come on only gear worth keeping is epic stuff so i have lots of room in my TR cashe.

    i really hope others never get to the point that treasure chests are useless to them

  9. #9
    Community Member Chacka_DDO's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by doubledge View Post
    If they implement evolving gear, I'm hoping the gear scales at least 20% slower than the top of the line gear.

    This entices players to have specialized, powerful gear but would let you use generalist, space-efficient gear for other, less important stats.

    For instance, a caster might have a bunch of specialized DC, and Spell Power items, but would have one, scaling Strength (For carrying capacity), saves (You're not going to make saves unless you're building specifically for it), and, say, misc skills like Spellcraft.
    In DDO there is nothing like special DC or something items. If you need a specific DC you try to get everything that makes the dc higher at this point. There are only specific item combinations to get your DC as high as possible.
    Therefore only items with the highest possible numbers are interesting and the combination of the effects on them, this needs to be in the right combination on your character to get the best possible result. I wonder if this is not obvious?
    And therefore your objection makes not much sense to me even if I try to understand your point.

    If I think further because the only real contradiction to such a system is increased item power with each update (as usual out of my limited sight):
    It does not need to have more powerful items each update it just needs to have different combinations of items to make new and more effective combinations for a build possible. This in connection with the endless different class combinations you can have in DDO, gives you a lot of room for individual ideas and fun.
    But if you bring out new even more powerful items with an update and all other items get outdated at the same time, the number of available items get smaller and not bigger. And with this reason, the amount of strength, for example, an item can give should be connected to the level of the item user.
    this is maybe a difficult train of thought.
    This close to inflation, if you print new money and give it to the people everyone like it at first of course, but if you do so, all money is less worth thereafter. This thought transferred to DDO, if you bring out new more powerful items, surely you may be happy to get them, but every other item is less worth, thereafter. Which means the game as a whole gets poorer (less possible effective variety).
    The next point is if you bring out every update new powerful items you effectively take something away from everyone with old items. This is similar as if your boss would tell you: I double your wage and next month you figure out everyone but you gets his wages doubled and at the same time the prices are doubled in the shops. So the value of your savings is halved.
    At the end, you maybe have to move from your country to solve this problem.
    Sure new even more powerful items give you some motivation, but this is only a flash in the pan (in Germany we would say a "Strohfeuer" I hope the meaning is similar) but it gives no long-term motivation.
    The short-term effects might be made the developers and most players think the current strategy is right. Players play new quests and maybe more players log in with a new update etc. but as almost everything it has also disadvantages
    Like in the economy a bit inflation is good, so I can not say it is entirely wrong was the developers do.
    And of course players tend to ask for more power like children ask for more candy, but the developers should be good parents and spoil their children not too much .
    I think the positive effects a small inflation has for the economy as can be already achieved for DDO with new effects on items, with new set bonuses (but not necessarily stronger) and also new looks for weapons and armor etc.. Of course it is also easier for a game designer to just give the next item one more strength . But the easy way is often not the best one.
    And to give just different bonus types is basically not much different, even if also this is clearly better than just giving more of a single bonus type. Like we have now enhancement, insightful, quality, profane and artifact bonus. This is all ok and I can live with it, but this has also its limit. Or is the next bonus type a “ridiculous” bonus to strength? and thereafter we get “ludicrous” bonuses?
    I ask foremost for a consistent strong system behind the power items provide.
    If you have this, you can also go back and upgrade old items quite easy. You have the name, the lore, the artwork and the quests and it just needs to update the numbers on the items to the new consistent system.
    Friedrich II (or Frederick the great if you want) said once: “I have conquered a province in peace” because he has left a large swamp drowned and made the land habitable with it.
    Transferred to DDO, with updated old Items, DDO gets suddenly a lot of new content because old content is more interesting again.
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    Community Member florestan's Avatar
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    I've suggested this type of thing a number of times, either scaling or the alteration of minimum levels to a 1,10,20,30 system. But I don't see any way this could ever happen for DDO, maybe if they created a DDO2, but they've made inventory glut, gear, and gear power such an integral part of this game I see no way they'd want to simplify all that.

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    Community Member Chacka_DDO's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hugoleo View Post
    Seems a bit boring.
    When I read someone uses the word “boring” it reminds me on Arthur Schopenhauer Aphorismen zur Lebensweisheit (Wisdom of Life) therefore I use this word careful now.
    Maybe its a good tip for you, I had a lot of fun listing to this audiobook while playing.
    I don't fully agree with him, I think there is hope for us, but I think he got a lot good points.

    Howsoever, my intention with this Suggestion is not to introduce something exciting new that entertains you, I foremost want to lessen the administrative expenses of items.
    Of course, my small hope is we have this once and then you may tell someone else: can you remember when we had 6 items for what this one item does? that was pretty stupid!
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    Community Member Eryhn's Avatar
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    Blade and Soul MMO also has this mechanic: you can basically retain your starter weapon and some starter accessory items all through the game. however, you do need some effort and other loot to level them up as the evolving stuff needs to repeatedly be "fed" other weapons, accessories, collectables etc to be upgraded. in doing so you can also achieve some amount of customization.

    Im kind of thinking sentient weapons is the devs taking approaches like this from other games and trying to incorporate some of that. the fact that sentient weapons is a special weapon tier and not intended as a general weapon item overhaul and how long it is/was in the pipe tells us something about how this works together with DDO item/weapon code I think ...meaning ... it prly takes a lot of effort to add a special weapon category like this, but redoing our global weapon or item system in such a way is probably not something we could expect to ever happen ?

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    Community Member Chacka_DDO's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bls904c2 View Post
    this idea is really bad for loot in the game

    i play on the TR train for the last 36 lives and i have had the same equipment every life from 1-20.

    i have cannith crafted gear at level 2, 5, 10, and 15. because of these sets, i dont think i have opened a chest for 25 of those lives and only started to open chests when the mimic event started.

    once the mimic event is over i dont know if i would open a chest again because there is nothing in it for me.

    i have 9 of my 13 toons plat cap nothing to buy.

    this idea makes my gear of one set instead of having 4 sets. which come on only gear worth keeping is epic stuff so I have lots of room in my TR cashe.

    I really hope others never get to the point that treasure chests are useless to them
    I suggested it especially for Cannith Crafting, the effect for you would be only you need 1/5 bank space compared with what you currently do. I do not know how it looks with you but I like more space in my bank and in my inventory.
    And the reason why you only use Cannith crafted items may be because you don't know better named items that might complete your item setup or just because you figured out, that Cannith crafting items are the better option because you don't have a big gap between level 1 and 8 and another even bigger gap between level 8 and 28. At least this is the main reason why I use a lot Cannith crafting now.
    The next natural step is that named items provide the same benefits (no big equipment gaps) and both provide the here suggested advantages. I just try to think further.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hindaekdnd View Post
    When I read someone uses the word “boring” it reminds me on Arthur Schopenhauer Aphorismen zur Lebensweisheit (Wisdom of Life) therefore I use this word careful now.
    Maybe its a good tip for you, I had a lot of fun listing to this audiobook while playing.
    I don't fully agree with him, I think there is hope for us, but I think he got a lot good points.

    Howsoever, my intention with this Suggestion is not to introduce something exciting new that entertains you, I foremost want to lessen the administrative expenses of items.
    Of course, my small hope is we have this once and then you may tell someone else: can you remember when we had 6 items for what this one item does? that was pretty stupid!
    Unless you can explain why we have " administrative expenses of items" in the first place I will not take your suggestion to lessen it with any regard at all tbh.

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    Community Member Chacka_DDO's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by florestan View Post
    I've suggested this type of thing a number of times, either scaling or the alteration of minimum levels to a 1,10,20,30 system. But I don't see any way this could ever happen for DDO, maybe if they created a DDO2, but they've made inventory glut, gear, and gear power such an integral part of this game I see no way they'd want to simplify all that.
    I read often the call for a DDO2 and of course, this idea has also some advantages but I believe in evolution and not revolution. Nothing what could be done in a DDO2 cannot be done in our DDO.
    If I see other big applications like Microsoft Office or operating systems like Linux, it appears to me, the software industry follows the model of nature.
    Therefore I don't think it is impossible to widely change how items look like in DDO if you decide it would make the game better.
    What I try is, to give some input for such an evolution of DDO for hopefully more success and more players I can play with in the future.
    "Act according to a maxim which can be adopted at the same time as a universal law."
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  16. #16
    Community Member Chacka_DDO's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eryhn View Post
    Blade and Soul MMO also has this mechanic: you can basically retain your starter weapon and some starter accessory items all through the game. however, you do need some effort and other loot to level them up as the evolving stuff needs to repeatedly be "fed" other weapons, accessories, collectables etc to be upgraded. in doing so you can also achieve some amount of customization.

    Im kind of thinking sentient weapons is the devs taking approaches like this from other games and trying to incorporate some of that. the fact that sentient weapons is a special weapon tier and not intended as a general weapon item overhaul and how long it is/was in the pipe tells us something about how this works together with DDO item/weapon code I think ...meaning ... it prly takes a lot of effort to add a special weapon category like this, but redoing our global weapon or item system in such a way is probably not something we could expect to ever happen ?
    To be honest I don't know much about this sentient weapons in pen and paper but from what I understand they can be improved somehow and I think that's a nice idea. But has basically nothing to do in what level you can equip them. but I'm only guessing. And without any question, I'm looking forward to seeing what the developers have designed for us.

    And of course I have some other ideas too.
    For example I read players there systems in other games you can have items in some kind of book and if you want to use them you “spawn” such an item.
    I could imagine that it would be possible to have such a book like the Monster Manual and if you do a certain quest several times you unlock the full power of items out of this quest similar as you get more and more information in the Monster Manual your item get stronger and stronger.
    For example, just the artwork and you can summon a quite weak version of the Item if you do the quest only on normal, and a better version if you do it on hard or elite, and the best version if you did the quest several times times on reaper 10 skull.
    The power of this item increases of course not dramatically while the effort to get the next power step it increases exponentially. Similar to the Reaper Enhancement system (which I regard as a great success of the development team).
    This is of course just a crude Idea and many questions remain unanswered.
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    Community Member Chacka_DDO's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hugoleo View Post
    Unless you can explain why we have " administrative expenses of items" in the first place I will not take your suggestion to lessen it with any regard at all tbh.
    With administrative expenses of items I mean to have them in your bank and if you have not enough space in your shared bank you need mules and then you need to keep track on your items.
    Another player told me once, he has the last days brought all the items on his mules to a catalog with the help of an exel table to keep the overview.
    I do not know how you think, but that does not sound like a lot of fun for me.
    The more items you have, the more effort you have with them, I think that's obvious. My suggestion is to make items more useful for the space they occupy.
    You may not be affected by it, but I know many who are. It depends of course on how many years you play and how often.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hindaekdnd View Post
    With administrative expenses of items I mean to have them in your bank and if you have not enough space in your shared bank you need mules and then you need to keep track on your items.
    Another player told me once, he has the last days brought all the items on his mules to a catalog with the help of an exel table to keep the overview.
    I do not know how you think, but that does not sound like a lot of fun for me.
    The more items you have, the more effort you have with them, I think that's obvious. My suggestion is to make items more useful for the space they occupy.
    You may not be affected by it, but I know many who are. It depends of course on how many years you play and how often.
    I absolutely agree that the amount of items that we are encouraged to keep has far exceeded the storage capacity. Especially if you do cannith crafting for multiple types of builds on the same character.
    The solution for a lacking storage is better storage, not the removal of the gearing process.

    It's possible that your suggestion would be an overall improvement to the game, but you seem to have done zero analysis on what is lost.

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    Community Member Chacka_DDO's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hugoleo View Post
    I absolutely agree that the amount of items that we are encouraged to keep has far exceeded the storage capacity. Especially if you do cannith crafting for multiple types of builds on the same character.
    The solution for a lacking storage is better storage, not the removal of the gearing process.

    It's possible that your suggestion would be an overall improvement to the game, but you seem to have done zero analysis on what is lost.
    I agree with you, more and better storage is also something we need. I would suggest to changing everything that is now Bound to Character to Bound to Account first. And for the few cases where Bound to Character makes really sense I would make such items not bankable (like if you give out Lesser Hearts of Wood after a class change. e.g. In U36 patch 2). Then I would suggest for every account one big account bank (much bigger than the shared bank we have now) with an efficient search function. The reincarnation cache could be dropped in this process. Then you have access to all banked Items on your whole account. This is one step on the move to make DDO account and with it centered on the player who owns the account and this is the paying customer after all.
    Of course, also this needs to be worked out. And this is not done during a night. But I am pretty sure this is possible and can be a win-win for the players and SSG.

    And I understand if you assume I would not have analyzed the matter sufficiently. I can tell you I try to see the disadvantages too but my conclusion is the advantages outweigh them. You must not agree with them and I would like to hear reasons against it.
    I think I am aware that when I suggest something, I tend to see the advantages rather than the disadvantages. Therefore, it is helpful to discuss here with others about it because I think they might see what I do not see.
    And of course, I don't talk about how important such a change is and if it can be done anytime soon or if development resources can allow it.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hindaekdnd View Post
    I agree with you, more and better storage is also something we need. I would suggest to changing everything that is now Bound to Character to Bound to Account first. And for the few cases where Bound to Character makes really sense I would make such items not bankable (like if you give out Lesser Hearts of Wood after a class change. e.g. In U36 patch 2). Then I would suggest for every account one big account bank (much bigger than the shared bank we have now) with an efficient search function. The reincarnation cache could be dropped in this process. Then you have access to all banked Items on your whole account. This is one step on the move to make DDO account and with it centered on the player who owns the account and this is the paying customer after all.
    Of course, also this needs to be worked out. And this is not done during a night. But I am pretty sure this is possible and can be a win-win for the players and SSG.

    And I understand if you assume I would not have analyzed the matter sufficiently. I can tell you I try to see the disadvantages too but my conclusion is the advantages outweigh them. You must not agree with them and I would like to hear reasons against it.
    I think I am aware that when I suggest something, I tend to see the advantages rather than the disadvantages. Therefore, it is helpful to discuss here with others about it because I think they might see what I do not see.
    And of course, I don't talk about how important such a change is and if it can be done anytime soon or if development resources can allow it.
    Making everything BtA also have implications other than storage. We are back to the same thing here, it's easy to come up with a reason for removing it without considering why it's there in the first place.

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