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  1. #1
    Community Member Wonedream's Avatar
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    Default PvP, those who like it and those who hate it, and its current state in the game

    PvP was at one time a thing to do, and it was fun for those doing it. Then it died, and a huge market niche died with it. I know a lot of people who wouldn't even blink in consideration to play a game without a PvP system of some sort, and then there are many examples of people who don't like PvP. Here in DDO, the community that does not like PvP has dominated, and PvP has gone nowhere and appears it will not revive.

    I don't take sides. I enjoy doing my best to objectively understand why things are they way they are, what potentials there are if any, and how can things be improved. I enjoy making things better if I can, so looking at this mess we call PvP in DDO, and seeing it as it is, I am wondering if there is a way and place for it to be more in DDO, so DDO has a bigger niche and makes more money... and so I end up with more options of things to do when I want to do them, instead of a narrow range of options.

    But I am not going to talk about how to make PvP better here, my ideas on them, and what to do with PvP.

    When I look at these forums I see a PvP section, so PvP is part of the game, and appears to have intentions put into it, and possibly will be built on at some point in time. Right now isn't that time. I am not saying this is what I am gonna make happen, but that giving enough time and that developments continue PvP will likely see change if this game can get a population large enough to support it. Also, if PvP wasn't such the mess it is now, it could be added to the niches DDO offers and therefor attract players looking for that kind of experience.

    I don't care what anyone labels anyone else as if they like PvP or not, I've heard the "you must have been bullied and are a nerd wanting revenge" theory and its just rubbish and rumors to me. I am not going to put down a huge percentage of people who enjoy PvP and competition just because I may or may not like it myself. I find that childish. I want to provide the best experience to all people who come to this game, so if they like PvP, I would like this to be the game where they get the best PvP possible.


    So why do you Hate PvP if you do?

    Why do you like PvP if you do?

    If you are neutral, but have an opinion you'd like to share, here is your opportunity.

    If you hate PvP, what, if anything, would change that to make it something you enjoy?

    If you like PvP, what do you think is holding it back?


    I didn't put this in the PvP section, because the thread is not about how to make PvP better, but to understand why it is so dead from the general perspective, how it died, and where people's heads are at with it. I don't see any reason to think about how to improve it until I have a much better understand of it.

  2. #2
    Community Member SiliconScout's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wonedream View Post
    PvP was at one time a thing to do, and it was fun for those doing it. Then it died, and a huge market niche died with it. I know a lot of people who wouldn't even blink in consideration to play a game without a PvP system of some sort, and then there are many examples of people who don't like PvP. Here in DDO, the community that does not like PvP has dominated, and PvP has gone nowhere and appears it will not revive.

    I don't take sides. I enjoy doing my best to objectively understand why things are they way they are, what potentials there are if any, and how can things be improved. I enjoy making things better if I can, so looking at this mess we call PvP in DDO, and seeing it as it is, I am wondering if there is a way and place for it to be more in DDO, so DDO has a bigger niche and makes more money... and so I end up with more options of things to do when I want to do them, instead of a narrow range of options.

    But I am not going to talk about how to make PvP better here, my ideas on them, and what to do with PvP.

    When I look at these forums I see a PvP section, so PvP is part of the game, and appears to have intentions put into it, and possibly will be built on at some point in time. Right now isn't that time. I am not saying this is what I am gonna make happen, but that giving enough time and that developments continue PvP will likely see change if this game can get a population large enough to support it. Also, if PvP wasn't such the mess it is now, it could be added to the niches DDO offers and therefor attract players looking for that kind of experience.

    I don't care what anyone labels anyone else as if they like PvP or not, I've heard the "you must have been bullied and are a nerd wanting revenge" theory and its just rubbish and rumors to me. I am not going to put down a huge percentage of people who enjoy PvP and competition just because I may or may not like it myself. I find that childish. I want to provide the best experience to all people who come to this game, so if they like PvP, I would like this to be the game where they get the best PvP possible.


    So why do you Hate PvP if you do?

    Why do you like PvP if you do?

    If you are neutral, but have an opinion you'd like to share, here is your opportunity.

    If you hate PvP, what, if anything, would change that to make it something you enjoy?

    If you like PvP, what do you think is holding it back?


    I didn't put this in the PvP section, because the thread is not about how to make PvP better, but to understand why it is so dead from the general perspective, how it died, and where people's heads are at with it. I don't see any reason to think about how to improve it until I have a much better understand of it.
    I can't believe I am posting this frankly, it shouldn't need to be said but it appears it needs to.

    In a nutshell here is the problem. ANY class, even the most gimped character in ddo is capable of putting down an enemy that is objectively stronger than they are (HP, SP, casting speed, DC's, Saves, etc) in seconds. Champs even, one one one are generally dropped at all levels in a matter of seconds. If every player can take out an enemy with multiples more HP with raw DPS in seconds, perhaps even in one shot then how the heck is it ever going to be balanced of fun to fight against another player.

    In order to balance the game for PvP it would negatively effect PvE because players and enemies don't play buy the same ruleset. In other games that have more PvP that is better supported the systems for players and enemies are far more balanced so PvP can be a thing. in DDO PvP is mostly first shot wins.

    PvP players do not like that (it was well evidenced when PvP was more a thing) and they tried to make certain limits in the PvP pits but if they ever wanted to even sniff at something close to balance hey would need to make core changes. Given that in DDO, even at it's height, real PvP was at best a fraction of a percentage of the population (seriously actual Role Players vastly outnumbered them) making core changes to the game that would determent everyone else makes no sense.

  3. #3
    Community Member Wonedream's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SiliconScout View Post
    I can't believe I am posting this frankly, it shouldn't need to be said but it appears it needs to.

    In a nutshell here is the problem. ANY class, even the most gimped character in ddo is capable of putting down an enemy that is objectively stronger than they are (HP, SP, casting speed, DC's, Saves, etc) in seconds. Champs even, one one one are generally dropped at all levels in a matter of seconds. If every player can take out an enemy with multiples more HP with raw DPS in seconds, perhaps even in one shot then how the heck is it ever going to be balanced of fun to fight against another player.

    In order to balance the game for PvP it would negatively effect PvE because players and enemies don't play buy the same ruleset. In other games that have more PvP that is better supported the systems for players and enemies are far more balanced so PvP can be a thing. in DDO PvP is mostly first shot wins.

    PvP players do not like that (it was well evidenced when PvP was more a thing) and they tried to make certain limits in the PvP pits but if they ever wanted to even sniff at something close to balance hey would need to make core changes. Given that in DDO, even at it's height, real PvP was at best a fraction of a percentage of the population (seriously actual Role Players vastly outnumbered them) making core changes to the game that would determent everyone else makes no sense.
    So PvP is reduced to a pointless match due to PvE balance making it usually 1st hit kills.

    And the stastistic value of PvP was a fraction, so it is not worth much as it has shown so far. It would be really interesting to know what percentage where involved in PvP when it was at its peak and when population was at its peak and see these two figures side by side. Is fraction like 1% or 5%? It would help a lot to see actual numbers, but that is the other thing you are saying, it hasn't been worth much?

    That leads to a vexing question for myself, is this because it is not appealing and therefor turning off those who might otherwise find it their niche or is it that even if it where perfect with greatly balanced fights due to arena variety with their own nerf circumstances or whatever it takes to balance that place without even slightly changing the rest of the PvE niche, it would still never build up and end up making money?

    Ok, lets try this simpler... I am vexed if its value is lost due to it turning off those who would otherwise convert it into a niche, or even if it where perfect for that kind of base, that base wouldn't really build up to much value or grow enough to be worth it? Which one is the case o.O?
    Last edited by Wonedream; 09-20-2017 at 12:46 AM.

  4. #4
    Community Member Grandern_Marn's Avatar
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    As long as I've played the game PvP has never really been a viable play style. Never partaken in it, probably never will. Nothing against those who do enjoy it power to them but at this stage of the game I don't see the devs putting any time into augmenting a little used system in the grand scheme of things.
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  5. #5
    Community Member vryxnr's Avatar
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    The few times I've stepped into a tavern brawl area was simply to test out something that I wanted more info on, and/or to trouble shoot abilities that didn't seem to work as advertised, but doing such testing in PvE combat/mid-quest was unreliable at best. PvP testing with a friend also meant you have accurate info of the targets defenses as well.

    A few times I wandered in to see if anything was going on. A few of those times I've see few people standing on the sides, watching as one person (usually at max level) sat in the middle of the arena and would cast a spell to one-shot anyone who came in, regardless of their level.

    Struck me as boring, and the general chat would either be filled with people immaturely spamming profanities and rude attempts at posturing, with the random person complaining that they just wanted to do some friendly pvp with a friend but they can't because of the max level insta-killer dominating the arena.

  6. #6
    Community Member Wonedream's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grandern_Marn View Post
    As long as I've played the game PvP has never really been a viable play style. Never partaken in it, probably never will. Nothing against those who do enjoy it power to them but at this stage of the game I don't see the devs putting any time into augmenting a little used system in the grand scheme of things.
    No I don't either. But I can see it may have a long ranged appearance later on at another stage of the game. It has its own section in these forums, and that says alot, that it appears to be an idea of theirs that is on hold for now. If they totally abandoned the idea of ever bothering with it again, why support a forum section where players can talk about it, makes suggestions, and so on? So I agree with you that at this stage there is no plan to bother, and no reason to either. It would make no sense to invest in PvP right now. I am just scouting and poking at it to understand what is going on with it, since its a part of the game that is limping, but still here, it looks like a wounded animal that is always around the place.. eventually you get to asking yourself..

    But as I see it and get familiar with it being here, it does appear that it could just be on hold for a while to figure out other more important changes. I think the Ravenloft, SW, and new fighting with knifes are all great signs, and don't see PvP getting included in any updates for a while until population grows.

    PvP isn't much my thing either, but I do wonder at it and wonder if it could be more fun somehow. It is interesting to consider casually, with no concern for what happens with it, but probing to see it how it is.

  7. #7
    Community Member FranOhmsford's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wonedream View Post
    So why do you Hate PvP if you do?
    Because it's Anathema to the spirit of D&D!

  8. #8

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    Quote Originally Posted by Wonedream View Post
    It has its own section in these forums, and that says alot
    So does perma-death, but devs aren't spending time developing for perma-deathers.

    I'd say PvP participation is dwarfed by perma-death participation, which is in itself a tiny minority.

    Back at its height on Argo, when Hawksendoom was a perennial* fixture in the LFM panel inviting people to come join him for PvP in the Wayward Lobster, I'd say there were what, a dozen people fighting in the pit at any one time? Maybe 20? Tops? And that was back when the server typically had 300-500 people on, so that's somewhere between 2% and 6% of the population back during its heyday. And it's gone WAY down since then, like in the area of "not one person has entered a PvP arena in well over a year" levels.

    *Seriously, his LFM was up like 8+ hours a day, every day, for years. That guy was the ultimate PvP enthusiast.

  9. #9

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    Quote Originally Posted by SiliconScout View Post
    In a nutshell here is the problem. ANY class, even the most gimped character in ddo is capable of putting down an enemy that is objectively stronger than they are (HP, SP, casting speed, DC's, Saves, etc) in seconds. Champs even, one one one are generally dropped at all levels in a matter of seconds. If every player can take out an enemy with multiples more HP with raw DPS in seconds, perhaps even in one shot then how the heck is it ever going to be balanced of fun to fight against another player.
    This issue, at least, is solvable. They could apply reaper rules to PvP. Skull value to be determined.

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wonedream View Post
    PvP was at one time a thing to do, and it was fun for those doing it. Then it died, and a huge market niche died with it. I know a lot of people who wouldn't even blink in consideration to play a game without a PvP system of some sort, and then there are many examples of people who don't like PvP. Here in DDO, the community that does not like PvP has dominated, and PvP has gone nowhere and appears it will not revive.

    I don't take sides. I enjoy doing my best to objectively understand why things are they way they are, what potentials there are if any, and how can things be improved. I enjoy making things better if I can, so looking at this mess we call PvP in DDO, and seeing it as it is, I am wondering if there is a way and place for it to be more in DDO, so DDO has a bigger niche and makes more money... and so I end up with more options of things to do when I want to do them, instead of a narrow range of options.

    But I am not going to talk about how to make PvP better here, my ideas on them, and what to do with PvP.

    When I look at these forums I see a PvP section, so PvP is part of the game, and appears to have intentions put into it, and possibly will be built on at some point in time. Right now isn't that time. I am not saying this is what I am gonna make happen, but that giving enough time and that developments continue PvP will likely see change if this game can get a population large enough to support it. Also, if PvP wasn't such the mess it is now, it could be added to the niches DDO offers and therefor attract players looking for that kind of experience.

    I don't care what anyone labels anyone else as if they like PvP or not, I've heard the "you must have been bullied and are a nerd wanting revenge" theory and its just rubbish and rumors to me. I am not going to put down a huge percentage of people who enjoy PvP and competition just because I may or may not like it myself. I find that childish. I want to provide the best experience to all people who come to this game, so if they like PvP, I would like this to be the game where they get the best PvP possible.


    So why do you Hate PvP if you do?

    Why do you like PvP if you do?

    If you are neutral, but have an opinion you'd like to share, here is your opportunity.

    If you hate PvP, what, if anything, would change that to make it something you enjoy?

    If you like PvP, what do you think is holding it back?


    I didn't put this in the PvP section, because the thread is not about how to make PvP better, but to understand why it is so dead from the general perspective, how it died, and where people's heads are at with it. I don't see any reason to think about how to improve it until I have a much better understand of it.
    I'm neutral on it.
    However i do see an issue with pvp in a pve game like this where a tripple everything completionist sorc has more hp, better saves, etc then 10 first life, undergeared fighters and said sorc can kill those fighters without running the risk of getting hurt himself.
    The origional p&p game didn't support pvp nor did ddo, now with all the pastlives the ballance for pvp is hard to find.
    Other games are far better at this.
    Another issue might be age related. The avr age of ddo players is somewhat higher then the avr couch pvp shooter crowd. Less testosterone and insecurity issues cause less of an urge to prove yourself in pvp

  11. #11
    Community Member J1NG's Avatar
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    I've never truly minded it, although on Thelanis I pretty much never see anyone in any PvP areas anymore.

    Personally, I've always felt that if the powers each player has can't be controlled, the way they want to earn their "wins" should be altered, enabling PvP play that's more "fair" and enjoyable.

    So something like:

    * PvP lasts a few days or weeks (a Season)
    * PvP group consists of X PvP players and 1 Observer per Team. Observer should be an "Official" who randomly rolls a mission for their respective team, or at least tells the team from a list they are given just before the PvP fight starts. X should be determined by those running the "Season".
    * PvP points earned in group only (for completing your randomly selected "mission" inside PvP Arena; eg Team A must acheive more kills than Team B. Team B must have player 3 die less than the others in Team B. Or Team A must have killed player 2 on Team B the most and Team B must have player 2 die the most on Team B); This forces players to work as a team, use tactics and feints (everyone healing player 3 even though they should have healed themselves gives away that their mission is to keep player 3 alive most and Team A may realise and concentrate effort on player 3) and not play PvP as a solo effort.
    * For completing your "mission" the Teams partcipants gains a reward of 1 PvP. If one Team completes their "mission" but the other does not, gain another +1 point.
    * At end of Season, player with most points "wins" PvP Season. (Now you can show off for winning in PvP)
    * Optional; Can have multiple league "level ranges" to diversify play styles. (But permits players to play without being gimped vs actual players with goals)
    * Optional; Could have "Clan"/"Guild" league too if enough players join (but only in same style, so if top 10 PvP point players are from DevChat and max of 10 players per guild; then clearly DevChat guild "won" the Guild PvP Season)

    * Each player is only permitted to bring 1 character along. (Players have to choose well a type you can play well on, since "mission" types, enemy PvP class types, may make things difficult for you, so you need to rely on your team mates and use tactics and gear appropriately)
    * This character must be declared in a post (something semi permanent for the duration of the entire PvP "Season"; for the part below).
    * Can be spec'd/respec'd, equipped however you like, but the levels and class levels must remain the same for duration of Season. (to prevent TR'ing, LR+20 changes that may provide more advantages; optional however, since you never know who you'll get for your Team mates anyway; level range 100% must be within your grouping however)

    Using something like the above, should let players play as "fairly" as possible in a PvP setting. Since there is no way to guarantee a set of PvP Team Mates who'll mix well with what you bring to the table. Or indeed if it'll help make the "mission" more easier/harder. So the player and what they brought needs to know how to play their character really well and be able to handle actual player opponents.

    But the settings currently in DDO prevent something like this, so it has to be a community effort for those who want to play it.

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  12. #12

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    PvP was never a thing, really.
    I was in a guild for a bit that PvPed and it seemed like it was mostly more of a rivalry between friends thing for most PvPers sprinkled in with trolls who'd lurk n gank people who wandered into the pits just for the lol's.
    The main reason for the hate IMO was the penchant for PvP players to spam chat with PvP arguments and trash talk.
    That and the fact that PvP balance and party balance have such different needs.

    Every single thing that stood as a barrier to PvP then still exists now but multiplied.
    So the prospect of having an area where strangers can meet to battle or queue up for matches, like other games, was and is impossible.
    However, now like then you can still form a circle of friends to PvP using some house rules to balance.
    That's all it ever really was IMO.
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  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by vryxnr View Post
    The few times I've stepped into a tavern brawl area was simply to test out something that I wanted more info on, and/or to trouble shoot abilities that didn't seem to work as advertised, but doing such testing in PvE combat/mid-quest was unreliable at best. PvP testing with a friend also meant you have accurate info of the targets defenses as well.

    A few times I wandered in to see if anything was going on. A few of those times I've see few people standing on the sides, watching as one person (usually at max level) sat in the middle of the arena and would cast a spell to one-shot anyone who came in, regardless of their level.

    Struck me as boring, and the general chat would either be filled with people immaturely spamming profanities and rude attempts at posturing, with the random person complaining that they just wanted to do some friendly pvp with a friend but they can't because of the max level insta-killer dominating the arena.
    sums it up completely.

  14. #14
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    It's was a fun curiosity at one time, but it really lacks depth and any real intrigue because of the way characters are designed in this game. It's just not designed to be a PvP game. We dish out thousands of damge per hit, but only have around 1,000 HP ourselves. So PvP just boils down to who gets the first hit.

    If it was to really work, for me, while in a PvP area, there would need to be modifiers to our HP and overall defense pools (or big nerfs to DPS). In order to make it last more than a couple seconds.

    And when you get down to trying to balance that between classes, I think it would become a much more time consuming and difficult project than it would be worth. You'd also have to build in systems to incentivize PvP properly, rewards, leadboards ect. Sounds to me like an update's worth of work. And to me, that's just not worth it when very few play DDO for PvP.

    So in summary I don't hate PvP, I just think the developer time is better spent working on new content, bug fixes, ect.

  15. #15
    Community Member Forzah's Avatar
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    It had its flaws, but I liked PvP before the introduction of EDs. Capped characters could take multiple hits, giving more tactical fights that lasted up to a minute.

    I still feel hate for bards locking me up for minutes using fascinate
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  16. #16
    Community Member barecm's Avatar
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    I don't hate it, I just don't care to do it. When it first came out, it was a novelty and was fun to do with a friend playing the same class. Heck, when it first came out, devs were still using their toons on the live servers and we would pvp with them. Now, the novelty has worn off. The people who continued were those who were exactly the folks I tend to avoid in games.... overzealous and annoying about their PvP builds based off wf sorcs who shield block. So, I will restate that I do not hate Pvp as a system, I really just don't care for the folks who do it and all the drama that they bring to it.
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  17. #17
    Community Member Pomdude's Avatar
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    Cool

    TBH I had forgotten it even existed.
    I was off work not long after it came in .. in the days of yore.
    Thought I know not many on I'll try it.
    Jumped into a tavern and got owned by a child who had managed to get himself a para bow.
    In those days that was an exceptionally rare item.
    Carried on (I was really bored and clearly suicidal) and got owned for his amusement about 10 times before kindly trying to get his mother on line and persuade her it was his bedtime.

    Have never been back since.

    Whatever the latest trick is someone will have it and totally own everyone else. Quite frankly it seems pointless to me but good luck to those who enjoy it.
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  18. #18

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    Quote Originally Posted by Wonedream View Post
    PvP was at one time a thing to do, and it was fun for those doing it. Then it died, and a huge market niche died with it. I[...]

    So why do you Hate PvP if you do?
    I do not hate PvP, its just that it cannot be balanced properly in DDO.
    Ranger pulls up a bow or a mechanic pulls up a repeater/GXBow or a thrower doing a fury shot with adrenaline.

    5000 -> 20,000 damage, non-resistible. No PC can survive that.

    Why do you like PvP if you do?
    I am neutral about PvP, and most games with PvP that I have seen are in a special arena with teams, not one player against another for balance and tournament. (League of Legends, Guild Wars 1/2)

    If you are neutral, but have an opinion you'd like to share, here is your opportunity.

    If you hate PvP, what, if anything, would change that to make it something you enjoy?
    See above. There needs to be PvP XP and rewards and perhaps titles and must not affect PvE.

    If you like PvP, what do you think is holding it back?
    Like I said previously, I am neutral about it. I do not think it is feasible in DDO.

    Classes are not balanced in DDO. A ranged character (Shuri throwers) for example using Fury of the Wild with some shiradi twists can CC you with no save and kill you without you ever touching them. There is also the matter of gear. Not everyone has gear. Some plays a lot and some only plays 2 days in one week, and only 1 hour every time. Some people already have the 5 piece LShroud set and their 5 piece slavers set, and are racial completionist, Epic completionist, class completionists. The disparity of power between players is too huge to do PvP. There is no way to bring PvP here unless developers do a massive nerf and only allowed PvP gear *AND* remove all past live and Epic Destiny benefits (at least during PvP).
    Last edited by Tyrande; 09-20-2017 at 09:55 AM. Reason: at least during PvP

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  19. #19
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    I never understood PVP in DDO. I understand trying out your build on other real players with real skills and tactics. But I never understood PVP in DDO because...

    1) There is no XP associated with it.
    2) There are no tangible game rewards.
    3) There are no leader boards (I think this is what people call them) so you can see who's won/loss the most.

    So, I personally see the PVP Pits and just being something the developers threw in there to appease to an extent the people who wanted a place they could PVP, and then just left it up to the players to develop their usage of it however they wanted.

    And I think to this day, I have never participated in nor heard of anyone ever trying to do a capture the flag game with the PVP area.

  20. #20
    The Hatchery Enoach's Avatar
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    I think one of the issues with discussing PvP is the Brawling pits vs the actual PvP arena's and Capture the Flag that was developed.

    Now as far as a PvP ranking system games like DDO which focus primarily on the PvE and synergy not balance make poor PvP games.

    This is not saying I don't see value in the Brawling Pits, which are more or less free for alls, or the actual PvP and Capture the Flag areas.

    However, like another poster stated I use these areas more as a testing ground. IE, my tank vs a Tree Build - How long can I stand, it shows weaknesses in defense that can be measured and adjusted by gear, ED choices or even enhancement/feat choices. I also like using it to try out abilities to see how it stacks up vs other choices. This works great if you have a willing victim - {cough} hmm I mean participant

    But I really don't remember PvP ever having a mainstream acceptance. It might have had larger groups of people in it during the migration of players from more PvP friendly games, but I do remember a lot of discussion on balance and actually attribute nerfs for the debuffs like curse, blindness and level drain which had no timer and needed to be cured, or crowd control spells like Flesh to stone which had a timer for save intervals but not a "total amount" which also made spells like Stone to Flesh actually useful (even if only by scroll).

    Because of those nerfs to abilities/spells (which again I attribute to PvP balance discussions) it has actually removed some of the challenge in the game that was replaced with bloated saves and hit points as it lowered the risk of the player in the PvE part of the game.

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