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  1. #1
    Community Member BigErkyKid's Avatar
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    Default Why play a melee character at all?

    We all know that the pendulum of power swings 3 ways: melee, ranged, caster. And when it does, the meta tends to shift pretty hard.

    Some time ago, post armor up, melees were a no brainer for most content. The best DPS and enough mitigation for most content meant that if you wanted fast progression, playing a FOTM melee was your best option.

    Some months ago, however, reaper came out and the meta shifted hard against melee.

    Some hard facts:

    - Putting distance between you are your enemies is there best existing defense in the game.

    Examples:
    - Dodging arrows (~22 min)
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OJ04UGLt5xA
    - Avoiding knockdowns (dragon fights)
    https://www.ddo.com/forums/newthread...newthread&f=37
    - Avoiding hits (exercise, count how many times trash hits the player)
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ITErU4StXL8
    - Even tanks kite
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MUpfcq5-hYw

    - Perching is often a method used to be beat the toughest encounters:

    Examples:
    - Perching in reaper
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rsjChp2qpVY
    - Perching LE tempest
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ITErU4StXL8
    and countless other examples

    While at some points in the game (immediately post armor up, for example), melee defense has been at a good spot, time and again difficulty expansions have resulted in going back to ranged strategies. So I am going to rule out a scenario where melees are so much tankier than close range equates ranged in defense. It just isn't a reliable solution.

    So in a game where distance is the best defense, why would a rational player choose to get closer to enemies?

    Let us set aside "flavor" as a reason for now. The options then are:

    1) Melee is more DPS, everything considered.
    2) Some powerful abilities (CC, debuffs) are best applied in melee range.

    And are either of 1) and 2) true? The answer, IMHO, is no. Does anyone disagree?

    Shuriken fury shot boss - 24 seconds
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2LGYbUMs6FQ
    Shuriken blitz trash helpless - 22 seconds
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dSHk9lNfc3Y
    Shuriken blitz boss - 58 seconds
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wopdtmP8kDs

    Ranger blitz boss - 52 seconds
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lYXs...ezhxMn&index=5
    Fighter monk blitz boss - 50 seconds
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lYXs...ezhxMn&index=5

    Pure fighter blitz boss - 49 seconds
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-ITT...zhxMn&index=21

    Monk dual boosting blitz trash helpless (pre dual boost nerf) - 20 seconds - this is outdated and will be worse now.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_lEgtdhgtTA
    Monk dual boosting blitz boss (pre dual boost nerf) - 52 seconds
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dlo0v7irXXc

    Assassin trash shadow dancer helpless - 69 seconds
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b6VcfUQ7AdE
    Assassin trash helpless blitz - 32 seconds
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hLcgWFkAxVg

    PS - This is more of a side note, but it is VERY relevant for the game nowadays. Currently the game as played by most is the racial TR + reaper XP hamster wheel. It is beyond obvious that playing ranged (vorpal fishing, insta kills, etc.) is far more convenient than playing a melee character. Virtually everyone who is invested in character progression recognizes this.
    Last edited by BigErkyKid; 09-02-2017 at 10:02 AM.

  2. #2
    Community Member florestan's Avatar
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    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by BigErkyKid View Post
    We all know that the pendulum of power swings 3 ways: melee, ranged, caster. And when it does, the meta tends to shift pretty hard.

    Some time ago, post armor up, melees were a no brainer for most content. The best DPS and enough mitigation for most content meant that if you wanted fast progression, playing a FOTM melee was your best option.

    Some months ago, however, reaper came out and the meta shifted hard against melee.

    Some hard facts:

    - Putting distance between you are your enemies is there best existing defense in the game.

    Examples:
    - Dodging arrows (~22 min)
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OJ04UGLt5xA
    - Avoiding knockdowns (dragon fights)
    https://www.ddo.com/forums/newthread...newthread&f=37
    - Avoiding hits (exercise, count how many times trash hits the player)
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ITErU4StXL8
    - Even tanks kite
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MUpfcq5-hYw

    - Perching is often a method used to be beat the toughest encounters:

    Examples:
    - Perching in reaper
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rsjChp2qpVY
    - Perching LE tempest
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ITErU4StXL8
    and countless other examples

    While at some points in the game (immediately post armor up, for example), melee defense has been at a good spot, time and again difficulty expansions have resulted in going back to ranged strategies. So I am going to rule out a scenario where melees are so much tankier than close range equates ranged in defense. It just isn't a reliable solution.

    So in a game where distance is the best defense, why would a rational player choose to get closer to enemies?

    Let us set aside "flavor" as a reason for now. The options then are:

    1) Melee is more DPS, everything considered.
    2) Some powerful abilities (CC, debuffs) are best applied in melee range.

    And are either of 1) and 2) true? The answer, IMHO, is no. Does anyone disagree?


    PS - This is more of a side note, but it is VERY relevant for the game nowadays. Currently the game as played by most is the racial TR + reaper XP hamster wheel. It is beyond obvious that playing ranged (vorpal fishing, insta kills, etc.) is far more convenient than playing a melee character. Virtually everyone who is invested in character progression recognizes this.
    I've run melee characters, just one run main char always with a rogue splash so not maxed for any one class, for 9 years. I play to be challenged and have fun, and that's been delivered consistently. I'm hardly a gimp, more than capable of surviving by knowing what I'm doing. I generally play bards and can offer CC, DPS, trapping, healing, and buffs.

    The game is diverse enough to provide builds for those who want convenience over challenge and for those who don't mind challenge over convenience. That's a credit to its design.

  3. #3
    Community Member
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    Default Not sure how YOU play...

    ...but I destroy in reaper.

    p.s. not a single caster complains when I smoke those held mobs in R7-10, saving EVERYONE time and resources and likewise I dont complain when they PK/Finger/Wail one Im not critting on...

    p.s.s they really dont get mad when I drop the will saves of everything I hit because I farmed for Visions of Precision.

    p.s.s.s. when the 8 mobs I dire charge into are stunned and shaken and have -2 to their saves because of the enhancments I pick they arnt crying for me to quit.

    p.s.s.s.s. after I save a caster by tripping the mob fixing to one shot him...well nvm, you get the point.

    p.s.s.s.s.s. for those who dont get it...there is nothing wrong with melee in a team,
    teamwork, communication and tactics are key. If you are running around with a showboat, thats your fault and just enjoy the free loot.

    p.s.s.s.s.s.s. ping pong is a fun game
    Last edited by Tat2Freak; 09-02-2017 at 08:48 AM.
    Kehgeld of Sarlona

  4. #4
    Community Member Selvera's Avatar
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    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by BigErkyKid View Post
    1) Melee is more DPS, everything considered.
    2) Some powerful abilities (CC, debuffs) are best applied in melee range.
    1) Mathamatically I'm pretty sure melee is more dps. However I believe certain ranged builds can get close.
    2) Dire Charge, Jade Strike, Coup De Grace and Assassinate are best applied in melee range. However I'm not sure if these hold up to mass hold, Otto's irresistible dance, PK and Destruction.
    Selvera: Asimar Fighter 15; Wisdom SWF build to farm gear for my next life
    Jen: Half Elf Fvs 20/Epic 10; Healer Archer with a more supportive build then usual
    Mayve: Tiefling Sorc 16; Just a pastlife for an alt

  5. #5
    Community Member J1NG's Avatar
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    Default

    What SSG games really needs to do is to implement for enemies:

    (All are mutually exclusive, so the enemy will only ever have one active at a time)
    Deflect Arrows: Stance. Immunity to projectiles, -50% movement speed, reduced Will Saves (For Melee types)
    Reflect Arrows: Stance. Immunity to projectiles, Reflects projectiles back at party (at own DC/Damage/Effect), reduced Fort and Reflex Saves, -25% movement speed (For Caster types)
    Spell Turning: Stance. Immunity to spells, Reflects spells back at party (at own DC/Damage/Effect), increased damage vulnerability by 33%, -15% AC (For Caster types)

    This will provide the following benefits:
    1. Increased difficulty (Can't steam roll through, need to keep eye out to see what's going on)
    2. Increased difficulty has easier means of bypass through mixed party (send casters in to deal with melee Deflecting Arrows, send melee in to take out those Reflecting Arrows or Spell Turning, etc)
    3. But also offers methods for those under a disadvantage to be able to bypass the immunity granted through carrying appropriate gear or abilities (Carrying Dispel Magic, or switching to melee or ranged)

    That's my thoughts on the matter anyway. Will provide difficulty for everyone, and not just for melee.

    J1NG
    Thelanis: Yijing (*Completionist* TR 20 Aasimar Scourge Monk Level 20 / Epic Level 10)
    Thelanis: Pocket-Monks: Sightblur, Peashoote, Jigglypath.
    Invisible Fences, unkillable Target Practice Dummy's, Shared Bank's, Pale Lavender Ioun Stones, the dimensional barrier between Eberron and Shavarath, I've broken them all...

  6. #6
    Community Member BigErkyKid's Avatar
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    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Selvera View Post
    1) Mathamatically I'm pretty sure melee is more dps. However I believe certain ranged builds can get close.
    Not even accounting for downtime from mobs moving, etc., which favors ranged. So no, melee is not necessarily more DPS.


    Shuriken fury shot boss - 24 seconds
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2LGYbUMs6FQ
    Shuriken blitz trash helpless - 22 seconds
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dSHk9lNfc3Y
    Shuriken blitz boss - 58 seconds
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wopdtmP8kDs

    Ranger blitz boss - 52 seconds
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lYXs...ezhxMn&index=5
    Fighter monk blitz boss - 50 seconds
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lYXs...ezhxMn&index=5

    Pure fighter blitz boss - 49 seconds
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-ITT...zhxMn&index=21

    Monk dual boosting blitz trash helpless (pre dual boost nerf) - 20 seconds - this is outdated and will be worse now.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_lEgtdhgtTA
    Monk dual boosting blitz boss (pre dual boost nerf) - 52 seconds
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dlo0v7irXXc

    Assassin trash shadow dancer helpless - 69 seconds
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b6VcfUQ7AdE
    Assassin trash helpless blitz - 32 seconds
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hLcgWFkAxVg

    Quote Originally Posted by Selvera View Post
    2) Dire Charge, Jade Strike, Coup De Grace and Assassinate are best applied in melee range. However I'm not sure if these hold up to mass hold, Otto's irresistible dance, PK and Destruction.
    Cooldowns, mass VS single target. Melee special attacks don't hold a candle to any of this. Truth is, those play a minor role in most high level reaper runs.

  7. #7
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    I've seen several melees tearing up reaper, but at the moment melees are the toughest build to play in reaper. It's not unlike pre-u14 where very few people could pull off dc caster due to weak defenses and hp. I was able to pull off playing dc caster in epics pre-u14 but can't seem to pull off melee now above r4. With more reaper points I probably could. 13-14 reaper points gets you what you need for a top-tier dc caster. A top-tier tank would likely want much more.

    in general the class hp differences are minimal except the 20% defense stance so hp isn't the advantage it used to be for melees.

  8. #8
    Community Member BigErkyKid's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by slarden View Post
    I've seen several melees tearing up reaper, but at the moment melees are the toughest build to play in reaper.
    I disagree, they are worse, not just difficult.

    can't seem to pull off melee now above r4. With more reaper points I probably could.
    Can play it, but it is just worse.

    in general the class hp differences are minimal except the 20% defense stance so hp isn't the advantage it used to be for melees.
    Yeah, and not all melees have it.

    Aside from the fact that heroic rTRs + reaper are infinitely faster an easier on NON melees.

  9. #9
    Community Member Wizza's Avatar
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    Melees should stop thinking about all dps and instead focus on some tactics. And twist Meld into Darkness.
    Quote Originally Posted by JOTMON View Post
    I don't think you get a choice.. you are Rys's minion..

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by BigErkyKid View Post
    I disagree, they are worse, not just difficult.



    Can play it, but it is just worse.



    Yeah, and not all melees have it.

    Aside from the fact that heroic rTRs + reaper are infinitely faster an easier on NON melees.
    Others are able to play melees in higher skull reaper besides us so the issue appears to be us partially. I don't know the devs should worry about it too much if others are not only successful but thriving. We are talking high skull reaper we should look more at potential rather than least common denominator.
    Last edited by slarden; 09-02-2017 at 10:49 AM.

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by BigErkyKid View Post
    Currently the game as played by most is the racial TR + reaper XP hamster wheel. It is beyond obvious that playing ranged (vorpal fishing, insta kills, etc.) is far more convenient than playing a melee character. Virtually everyone who is invested in character progression recognizes this.
    I agree with this statement about where the game is played which makes all of your linked vidoes irrelevant because Blitz is an epic ability. I'd encourage you to take a look at my Tales of a Reaping Fighter in the fighter section about playing a pure, first time through Reaper Fighter. DPS on pure Fighter is extraordinary. I mean it's really really good. Do you need someone to heal you? You bet. But they certainly have their place.

    Now that said, and as I basically run Reaper exclusively, I will say I group with far more ranged characters than I do melee. However, have you seen the sword Wave of Despair from the new chain? That thing is awesome. Worth playing a melee for that alone.


    I am Awesomesauce!

  12. #12
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    Come to sarlona, plenty of melees in high skull reaper do really well. Its all about building and playing effectively
    Peregrynne of Sarlona

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Talonthedruid View Post
    Come to sarlona, plenty of melees in high skull reaper do really well. Its all about building and playing effectively
    This and +1.
    Kehgeld of Sarlona

  14. #14
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    Melee can be devastating when applied correctly in a well coordinated group.

    Afunkymunky/Drkivorkian, Helter Skelter on Ghallanda

    Epic Ring of Spell Storing--https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthrea...+spell+storing

  15. #15
    Community Member Whitehairguy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wizza View Post
    Melees should stop thinking about all dps and instead focus on some tactics. And twist Meld into Darkness.

    Stop thinking like that you heathen!

  16. #16
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    To be the gimp in the group?

  17. #17
    Community Member BigErkyKid's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Odysseus2011 View Post
    Melee can be devastating when applied correctly in a well coordinated group.

    I am not saying you "can't" play, I'm a just saying it is not a "good idea". You don't gain in DPS much and it has plenty of drawbacks.

    Obviously for heroic TRs it is a terrible idea.

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by BigErkyKid View Post
    I am not saying you "can't" play, I'm a just saying it is not a "good idea". You don't gain in DPS much and it has plenty of drawbacks.
    Your title doesn't seem to share that same point of view, maybe change it to "Why play a melee while leveling?", or "Why play melee other than at cap?"
    Afunkymunky/Drkivorkian, Helter Skelter on Ghallanda

    Epic Ring of Spell Storing--https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthrea...+spell+storing

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Carpone View Post
    The same melee DPS gets two shot in your Black and Blue video. Also, when there's two ranged DPS and one melee DPS, it's not a convincing example of melee dominance.
    When the melee is doing more dps then both of them combined, I don't really see the problem.

    And that's your complaint? In 2 runs of Memiors and B&B on Reaper10 the melee dies 1 time and that's your biggest gripe? I didn't say melee were immortal, I said they could be very effective when applied correctly.
    Afunkymunky/Drkivorkian, Helter Skelter on Ghallanda

    Epic Ring of Spell Storing--https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthrea...+spell+storing

  20. #20
    Community Member Wizza's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Whitehairguy View Post
    Stop thinking like that you heathen!
    I've partied with tons of melees who would rather stay still and do nothing than twisting Meld Into Darkness and be useful, while losing their DPS (most likely) twist. Sad reality.
    Quote Originally Posted by JOTMON View Post
    I don't think you get a choice.. you are Rys's minion..

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