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  1. #1
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    Default Reaper Tollroad No Noobs allowed

    R1 is the new easy mode. It's easier than elite plus hey infinite free mana too.

    Brilliant idea, split the already tiny population and buff the insanely OP "powergamers" and give them a XP superhighway to ride past all the stuck-in-the mud noobs who still play elite and elite with no buffs for your toon, no free mana, plus you got OP champs just like reaper mode. FUN!

    I couldn't dream up a better idea of discouraging new players. If this system had been in place when I was first started I would have left. Seperate but equal?

  2. #2
    Community Member Mr_Helmet's Avatar
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    This game gets new players to discourage?

  3. #3
    Community Member Rys's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by capsela View Post
    R1 is the new easy mode. It's easier than elite plus hey infinite free mana too.

    Brilliant idea, split the already tiny population and buff the insanely OP "powergamers" and give them a XP superhighway to ride past all the stuck-in-the mud noobs who still play elite and elite with no buffs for your toon, no free mana, plus you got OP champs just like reaper mode. FUN!

    I couldn't dream up a better idea of discouraging new players. If this system had been in place when I was first started I would have left. Seperate but equal?
    The extra XP and the reaper trees were just a mistake.

  4. #4
    Community Member Riddle_of_Steel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by capsela View Post
    R1 is the new easy mode. It's easier than elite plus hey infinite free mana too.

    Brilliant idea, split the already tiny population and buff the insanely OP "powergamers" and give them a XP superhighway to ride past all the stuck-in-the mud noobs who still play elite and elite with no buffs for your toon, no free mana, plus you got OP champs just like reaper mode. FUN!

    I couldn't dream up a better idea of discouraging new players. If this system had been in place when I was first started I would have left. Seperate but equal?
    You know you could be willing to run with some noobs, get them on your ship (and get the buffs) then help them through R1. Did a wiz king recently where I got a couple of vets from starfleet to join and 3 people who had either never run it or only did it once and we ran a full wizking R1. Took a while, had deaths, new guys learned a bunch and we all had fun.

    Win-win all the way around and I still see the new guys around so it is possible. if you aren't part of the solution then you are part of the problem n'est-ce pas?d
    Last edited by Riddle_of_Steel; 07-21-2017 at 04:51 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by SiliconScout View Post
    DDO was my MMO of choice because it didn't require a lot of mindless grind back in the day. Now it's my MMO of choice due to inertia and apathy.
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  5. #5
    Community Member Riddle_of_Steel's Avatar
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    And reaper really isn't easier than Elite, except for casters perhaps.

    And certainly not on a first lifer who isn't an AoE DPS monster, once you have some enhancements then sure it gets easier but if you are melee it's not really because the self-healing penalty just beats the snot out of you. Casters though for sure, my Sorc completes R1 easier than elite because he juuust kills in R1 but way over kills in Elite and the free SP means Maximize, Empower, Quicken and Heighten never need to come off, ever.

    Not that they ever did on elite but on elite I had to rely on the SLA's waaay more.
    Quote Originally Posted by SiliconScout View Post
    DDO was my MMO of choice because it didn't require a lot of mindless grind back in the day. Now it's my MMO of choice due to inertia and apathy.
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  6. #6
    Bounty Hunter slarden's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Riddle_of_Steel View Post
    You know you could be willing to run with some noobs, get them on your ship (and get the buffs) then help them through R1. Did a wiz king recently where I got a couple of vets from starfleet to join and 3 people who had either never run it or only did it once and we ran a full wizking R1. Took a while, had deaths, new guys learned a bunch and we all had fun.

    Win-win all the way around and I still see the new guys around so it is possible. if you aren't part of the solution then you are part of the problem n'est-ce pas?d
    I posted '"all welcome" r3 runs and it takes much longer to complete vs. soloing especially at low levels before raise dead and especially when you get 2 people not built for reaper and nobody else. Not to mention the # of healing and res scrolls I go through drains me of plat.

    i will continue to post all welcome runs but sometimes I am going to solo to make faster progress. Grouping bonuses should be part of reaper even if not part of base xp because there is mostly downside and slower xp/min.
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  7. #7
    Community Member Riddle_of_Steel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by slarden View Post
    I posted '"all welcome" r3 runs and it takes much longer to complete vs. soloing especially at low levels before raise dead and especially when you get 2 people not built for reaper and nobody else. Not to mention the # of healing and res scrolls I go through drains me of plat.

    i will continue to post all welcome runs but sometimes I am going to solo to make faster progress. Grouping bonuses should be part of reaper even if not part of base xp because there is mostly downside and slower xp/min.
    I personally tend to stay at R1 with the "all welcome" myself. Even then I could probably solo it faster, and certainly many times do, but when I post the group I am hoping for some conversation. Often enough even though it's "all welcome" I get a couple other vets and we just tear R1 a new one but for me I generally keep R3+ for play with people I am confident with / strong groups raiding.
    Quote Originally Posted by SiliconScout View Post
    DDO was my MMO of choice because it didn't require a lot of mindless grind back in the day. Now it's my MMO of choice due to inertia and apathy.
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  8. #8
    Community Member Chai's Avatar
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    The community should just embrace the fact that the game has Casual, Normal, Hard difficulty settings for people starting out. Has anyone met a true new player who demanded to run elite or reaper straight off the character select screen? (most wont be able to anyhow unless they subbed before ever trying the game out).
    Quote Originally Posted by Teh_Troll View Post
    We are no more d000m'd then we were a week ago. Note - This was posted in 10/2013 (when concurrency was ~4x what it is today)

  9. #9
    Community Member MarcusCleardawn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chai View Post
    The community should just embrace the fact that the game has Casual, Normal, Hard difficulty settings for people starting out. Has anyone met a true new player who demanded to run elite or reaper straight off the character select screen? (most wont be able to anyhow unless they subbed before ever trying the game out).
    That's not the issue. The issues are:

    1. that a new player is unlikely to feel confident leading a quest, which is the presumption if the new player posts the lfm.
    2. most players, and probably a higher percentage of new players, would prefer to run quests in groups.

    The real question would be, "Has any vet since the introduction of Bravery Bonus ever demanded that the group lower the difficulty to normal or hard because there was a new player?" Of course not.

    My impression of the population is that the majority of it is people with over a year in, and the number of truly new to the game players is quite low. Right now, if a new player wants to join a PUG, most of the PUGS are Reaper, and almost all of the PUGS posted are at least Elite or higher. Are you willing to kill your bravery bonus to run at a level appropriate to the new player? Not many other players are willing to do so either.

  10. #10
    Community Member Riddle_of_Steel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MarcusCleardawn View Post
    ... Are you willing to kill your bravery bonus to run at a level appropriate to the new player? Not many other players are willing to do so either.
    Not disagreeing with you at all but I certainly have, though more often by accident. It only takes 4 runs to get back up to the max anyway so it's not the end of the world for me. I have stepped down to Hard with a crew of new players because they were struggling and looking for a guide.

    My Hard streak is 500 something, my elite is 350ish and over a week I probably average about 40 completions so that alone should tell you that I am willing to break it. That said I am certainly not the norm when it comes to this. More often for me is the guy who whines that anything less than R10 is a waste of time yet manages to die REPEATEDLY in R2. My guess on that guy is he knows he's going to die lots but in R10 people expect it ... I dunno? LOL


    But for myself, especially now with R1 first time completion XP, I am more than willing to break my streak if the group I am in needs it. More often than not though I can at least get them through an Elite run and teach them something along the way. I haven't experimented yet but I do often wonder if a Hard "all welcome" group would fill quickly or not.
    Quote Originally Posted by SiliconScout View Post
    DDO was my MMO of choice because it didn't require a lot of mindless grind back in the day. Now it's my MMO of choice due to inertia and apathy.
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  11. #11
    Community Member Fedora1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr_Helmet View Post
    This game gets new players to discourage?
    I LOL'd at this.

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fedora1 View Post
    I LOL'd at this.
    I got 2last night on my lfm. 1 pathetically joined underlevel and begged me to start a low level quest. 1 joined my elite bookbinder & promptly died in a trap i had just gotten through with no evasion & ragequit! Anecdotes ftw? Btw 6 total lfm on cannith last night SAD
    Last edited by capsela; 07-21-2017 at 06:42 PM.

  13. #13
    Community Member PermaBanned's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chai View Post
    The community should just embrace the fact that the game has Casual, Normal, Hard difficulty settings for people starting out.
    All of your "...the community..." and "...people asked for/people complained when they got..." posts would be of more merit if the "people" who asked/compleined & the "community" were in fact always the same "people" and the "community" were of a united opinion. It's takes more than your say-so to make it a fact.

    I'd wager many in the community are well aware of those difficulties, as they avoid selecting them on a regular basis

    Quote Originally Posted by Chai View Post
    Has anyone met a true new player who demanded to run elite or reaper straight off the character select screen? (most wont be able to anyhow unless they subbed before ever trying the game out).
    Can't say I've met any who "demanded" to, I've met several who joined the only LFMs available to them which were Elite before Reaper, and now Reaper. Silly new players joining an MMO to play with other people!
    Last edited by PermaBanned; 07-21-2017 at 07:06 PM.
    I would still like to see... Something that tests character versatility and player adaptability rather than character focus strength and quest knowledge.
    I play the quests for the content of the quests not just as an XP/min merry-go-round.
    Actual play experience is worth infinitely more than theorycrafting...

  14. #14
    Community Member Mr_Helmet's Avatar
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    I still don't believe there are enough new players for this to matter.

  15. #15
    Community Member caberonia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by capsela View Post
    R1 is the new easy mode. It's easier than elite plus hey infinite free mana too.

    Brilliant idea, split the already tiny population and buff the insanely OP "powergamers" and give them a XP superhighway to ride past all the stuck-in-the mud noobs who still play elite and elite with no buffs for your toon, no free mana, plus you got OP champs just like reaper mode. FUN!

    I couldn't dream up a better idea of discouraging new players. If this system had been in place when I was first started I would have left. Seperate but equal?
    Now that you mention it.. champs are so far off what i expected from DDO they should have been reaper ONLY. When they added reaper they should have shifted the whole champ system into reaper..since the point of champs was to Add challenge. and apparently that wasn't enough so they added reaper.. The two should have became one when they implemented reaper..just my opinion though. I might still actually play if that were the case... I log in to get my daily dice once a week or so but haven't actually played since like the week after reaper was introduced.
    Last edited by caberonia; 07-21-2017 at 07:59 PM.
    Sarlona- Fistalis, Caberonia, Kerlik, Mashbirs, Molleck, Burrthistle, Enlitened, Rotheril, Maginos, Urrock, Talathis- Scholars of Aureon

  16. #16
    Community Member Chai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MarcusCleardawn View Post
    That's not the issue. The issues are:

    1. that a new player is unlikely to feel confident leading a quest, which is the presumption if the new player posts the lfm.
    2. most players, and probably a higher percentage of new players, would prefer to run quests in groups.

    The real question would be, "Has any vet since the introduction of Bravery Bonus ever demanded that the group lower the difficulty to normal or hard because there was a new player?" Of course not.

    My impression of the population is that the majority of it is people with over a year in, and the number of truly new to the game players is quite low. Right now, if a new player wants to join a PUG, most of the PUGS are Reaper, and almost all of the PUGS posted are at least Elite or higher. Are you willing to kill your bravery bonus to run at a level appropriate to the new player? Not many other players are willing to do so either.
    Those are bad assumptions because:
    1. if there are alot of new players they can easily run together. New to DDO =/= new to MMOs. Theres zero reason to assume new players dont like to make groups. I see this often claimed by vets on the forums, but dont see it in game.
    2. If there are very few new players, the community needs to stop throwing the few we have under the bus in order to push their "must run highest setting possible" agenda.
    3. Ive never met a true casual or true new player who insists on running elite or reaper. This is a forum myth spread by veteran players.
    Quote Originally Posted by Teh_Troll View Post
    We are no more d000m'd then we were a week ago. Note - This was posted in 10/2013 (when concurrency was ~4x what it is today)

  17. #17
    Community Member Chai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PermaBanned View Post
    All of your "...the community..." and "...people asked for/people complained when they got..." posts would be of more merit if the "people" who asked/compleined & the "community" were in fact always the same "people" and the "community" were of a united opinion. It's takes more than your say-so to make it a fact.

    I'd wager many in the community are well aware of those difficulties, as they avoid selecting them on a regular basis

    Can't say I've met any who "demanded" to, I've met several who joined the only LFMs available to them which were Elite before Reaper, and now Reaper.
    New players should be grouping with other new players. Insisting they group with veterans is a major part of what keeps new players from hanging around in this game.

    Quote Originally Posted by PermaBanned View Post
    Silly new players joining an MMO to play with other people!
    Next thing you know they will want to pay the actual game rather than have it played for them. You know, things like completing quests at their own speed rather than run a quest 15 times and never learn it because the vets do all the heavy lifting all the while being three rooms ahead minimum.

    The better option is to keep these groups separate. Insisting they need to play together is a major part of the issue in this game.
    Quote Originally Posted by Teh_Troll View Post
    We are no more d000m'd then we were a week ago. Note - This was posted in 10/2013 (when concurrency was ~4x what it is today)

  18. #18
    Community Member PermaBanned's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chai View Post
    New players should be grouping with other new players. Insisting they group with veterans is a major part of what keeps new players from hanging around in this game.

    The better option is to keep these groups separate. Insisting they need to play together is a major part of the issue in this game.
    So what is your suggestion to achieve these things? How would you propose segregating new players from vets (preferably without causing more harm than good)? Is this a "community" issue, to be solved by "the community?" (And again: how to accomplish it?) Or a design issue to be solved by the Devs? (And again, how to accomplish it?)

    Who's insisting "new players need to group with vets?" I haven't seen that claim made by anyone - would you kindly point out where I missed it? I've seen several posts suggesting that a new player's options are rather limited in that regard however, given the (presumably but unprovably) low new player/vet ratio.
    I would still like to see... Something that tests character versatility and player adaptability rather than character focus strength and quest knowledge.
    I play the quests for the content of the quests not just as an XP/min merry-go-round.
    Actual play experience is worth infinitely more than theorycrafting...

  19. #19
    Community Member Airmaiden's Avatar
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    Default Reaper for fun and xp

    I post LFM's all the time and they are always "on Reaper for fun and XP". I accept the 1st 5 people to hit LFM. Noob or Vet alike, from there I decide what reaper level the quest will be on R3 -R8 in most cases (some R10's). I try to make sure everyone has fun, but I also understand when people decide it is not for them. Normally take a quest or two for the group to figure out a game plan for attacking mobs, but once we get a hang of it, everyone seems to enjoy reaper.

    For the people that want to run elites, go run elites, but remember that years ago we ran a lot of quests on hard and if we had a good group, then we might run elites ( this was before we had past lives, easy to get gear and had a limited amount of quests to run, so we HAD to farm quests to make sure you did not run out of XP.

    The only thing that I would agree with on most of these posts is the fact that the server populations are down in the last 6 months or so. Just try to play the way you want to play and set small goals for your toon. PLEASE do not come onto this forum and whine about how new toons will get frustrated with the fact that they can not make a toon and be instantly as powerful as a vet that has invested years into his/ her toon. Do not be the typical MILLENNIAL!!

    For those people that are on Sarlona, please look me up on my main and I will always try to help with whatever I can. Also, just because I put up and LFM that says Reaper does not mean you can not join my groups as a 1st lifer:

    See you all back in the game!

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  20. #20
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    R1 is not noticeably different than Elite for the typical vet, not even considering the free SP. Once the Reaper points start accumulating, R1 is noticeably easier than elite. A 1st lifer might have a little more trouble, but in my experience, quest knowledge compensates for any power shortage.

    Do newbs join groups outside their difficulty? Absolutely. Why? No one (that I didn't know) ever told me why they joined my Reaper pugs, but I suspect it is because they either didn't have a choice with regards to available LFMs, didn't know they were outside the scope of their character's abilities, or didn't care/were hoping to pike. That last one I think is very rare, almost all joiners were very active in-quest.

    Several times 1st life (new?) players joined my Reaper pugs. Sometimes they would get splatted and drop. I don't know that I would call what they did a 'rage quit' but they were definitely demoralized. Sometimes they would admit they were out of their depth before dropping. (And before anyone feels the need to psychoanalyze the whys and hows of pugging vis-a-vis leadership, I'm skipping all the details about how the quests and groups were run. That's not relevant to the above points.)

    Reaper is terribly incentivized to promote grouping. Which, shockingly, makes Reaper bad for grouping. Just about everything good that Reaper does could have been achieved by simply moving BB to base quest level. There wasn't any need for reaper trees or reaper helm bonuses or the inevitable ever-growing reaper bonuses to loot, except to incentive grinding.


    3. Ive never met a true casual or true new player who insists on running elite or reaper. This is a forum myth spread by veteran players.
    I question the phrasing here, especially 'insists'. In any case, just because something is outside your experience, doesn't mean it doesn't exist. Please note that which I recounted, above.

    To conclude: Reaper was terribly implemented, in general a bad mistake, and IMO, quite likely to cause more harm than good to DDO.

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