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  1. #1
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    Default BamBam with Sam ~~ Shintao Edition

    Heyo! This is my snob's monk post.
    Previous build.
    Cheers and love!












    You can run level cap quests for epic xp, but you can't run non-level cap quests for RXP when you're capped.
    r10 @ 30 stuff, sorc, monk,Ghallanda

  2. #2
    Community Member DrawingGuy's Avatar
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    You obviously spent a LOT of time grinding gear to have a setup like that - few will be able to match it.

    Almost everything you have here is what I would suggest as well, and I especially like that you're the type to actively switch gear and weapons to be your most effective. Though I do have a few questions:

    - I see that you're lacking a dodge item. You're relying on Reaper enhancements to cover most of the gap, but as you increase it, there's 3% to cap you're missing and you also are not taking 4% more available to enhancements... with complete avoidance being very desirable in high level reapers, is 6 SA (from 17 more Hide) and 70HP truly superior to capped dodge + 18 PRR + whatever you gain from re-allocating the 5 Reaper AP?

    - Do you find the 100% dodge clicky enough use to give up Sense Weakness or Symmetric Strikes? 15 seconds on a 2 minute timer makes it nothing more than a situational "oh kitten" button, and giving up a constant DPS boost for such a tiny window does not seem worth it to me... but then I haven't ventured into high level reaper just yet.

    - I like that you take Unbalancing Strikes - I've harped on many people's Monk threads that it is the most important Ki Strike they can take for Monk DPS, but then you don't take Knock on the Sky or Eagle Claw. Based on your gear, it's obvious you're in Ethereal Scion, so I'd think you'd want 15% fort bypass on bosses from Eagle Claw... and in the huge numbers thrown around in reaper, wouldn't Knock on the Sky be a bigger deal than ever? Or is it pointless as you'll be 1-shot anyways? Unless that is the case, I think you could afford to drop 2 Wis to gain both strikes.

    - In my testing Negotiator did not lower even the updated Ki Shout timer - has this changed? Better off dropping a point into Static Charge to boost the damage of your Storm's Harness or Fire for Crippling Flames (along with Lighting the Candle if you take that + the commonness of Fire based Warlocks due to Fiend giving Hurl), 1 point into Mystic Training, and freeing up the third point for use elsewhere.


    Other than those four questions, I do have a consideration on reallocation of your enhancements as it looks like you're investing in Racial PLs to cover the Human AP: have you looked into investing 21 AP into Henshin? Lighting the Candle goes a long way towards making up for the lost SA die from Ninja Spy + 3 to dodge cap + 10 MP + 3 PRR. If you don't need the Wisdom point, you could get two more Elemental strikes and be able to self-maintain max Vuln strikes after quickly building them with a weapon and not need to swap back. It would be a 41 Shintao, 11 Ninja Spy, 7 Harper (you would have a shorter KtA timer), 21 Henshin split. The 1 minute timer on KtA actually works for my buffing habit: Swap to Int gear > Tenser Transform scroll > Shadow Veil > KtA > Swap back to normal gear and weapon and blast in with my Dire Charge. Everything is on a 1 min timer, so I have the same buff cycle before each encounter.
    Pinc Punch - Unarmed Monk (Uber Completionist) // Porc the Orc - Paladin // Thunderborn - Warlock // Imustbe Emo - PewPew Rogue // Aquamine Artifact - Crafting Artificer (shelved)

  3. #3
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    I don't get why you guys are all going WIS based.

    Your quivering is still crab, and with all that gear you can get no fail DCs on all moves.

    So why the WIS?

    Isn't it worth to spend it on DEX to get some extra DPS? It is not only the damage, but the darn to-hit, the extra sneak attack...

    I get WIS for people who want to try quivering palm (not happening bro), but for the rest?

    In addition, screw shadow veil. I am going hen shin up to focus. +5 to hit and extra MP, heck yeah. I find that with good AC and so no shadow veil is not adding that much in terms to of to miss.

    Finally, has anyone checked how epic quenched wraps are doing? A toee set for +20MP could be nice and perhaps even more DPS?

    Thoughts?

    PS - given the nerf to self heals, has anyone thought of doing a dark monk for better finishers?
    Quote Originally Posted by retrojet View Post
    Why are there entire pure classes still that are completely unusable [...]. Why are there entire trees that no one will ever invest in? Why are there entire destinies that no one will ever play in? Why aren't these questions even on the developer radar screen?

  4. #4
    Community Member DrawingGuy's Avatar
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    Actually, Erky, Quivering Palm DCs are able to get into useful DCs - I'm able to achieve decidedly more than what Bam is showing:

    10 base + 10 (1/2 Monk) + 3 Fighter PLs + 6 LD Tactics + 45 WIS + 15 Know the Angles = 89 Quivering Palm + 4 if Astral Scion + 2 if Tactics feat = 95. +6 Dread Aversary Tactics in Reaper = 101.

    GMoF can reach higher with WIS in tree and +3 to tactics in cores, but LD offers too much in survivability (with PRR) and DPS to give it up for a bit more DC and moves with even more stunted DCs than Quivering Palm.

    And some numbers for Wis/Int (I did not use max, but rather what I would be at fully buffed):
    18 - Base Wisdom
    7 - Level Ups
    7 - Tome
    2 - Completionist
    2 - Racial Completionist
    1 - Human Racial PLs
    17 - Enhancement (equipment)
    7 - Insightful (equipment)
    4 - Quality (equipment)
    1 - Exceptional (augment)
    2 - Festive (augment)
    8 - Enhancements (6 in Shintao, 1 in Henshin, 1 in Human)
    3 - Action Surge (Human enhancement)
    2 - Ship
    2 - Yugo
    2 - DDO Store/Remnant potion
    2 - Profane (Litany/Band of Insightful)
    2 - Reaper headgear bonus
    -------
    89 WIS


    Other Wis:
    2-5 Touch the Void Dragon
    4 Abishai cookies
    3 Alchemical potion
    4 Water Stance
    2 Acute Instincts
    ------
    104-107 WIS



    14 - Base Intelligence
    7 - Tome
    2 - Completionist
    2 - Racial Completionist
    2 - Racial PLs
    17 - Enhancement (equipment)
    7 - Insightful (equipment)
    4 - Quality (equipment)
    1 - Exceptional (augment)
    2 - Festive (augment)
    2 - Ship
    2 - Yugo
    2 - DDO Store/Remnant potion
    2 - Profane (Litany/Band of Insightful)
    2 - Reaper headgear bonus
    ------
    66 INT

    Other Int:
    2-5 Touch the Void Dragon
    4 Abishai cookies
    3 Alchemical potion
    ------
    75-78


    I'm able to push my QPs into the 90s and can pretty effectively zap casters and rangers, and obviously all of my other DCs are no fail on everything. I've been able to use my QP ever since U19, and even after the U21 nerf, I can't think of the last time I reached 5 stacks of the buff after I invested into KtA. My bigger issue is Ki management as there are a dozen moves I want to use, and the devs still refuse to add new Enhanced Ki items.

    The DPS loss of Dex being a main stat or secondary stat is quite small as most of your stats come from equipment and buffs - the difference lies in those that go Ethereal or those that go Astral.


    TL;DR - Those that build for Quivering Palm can indeed make it useful. With the severe damage scaling in Reaper mode, being able to reach useful QP is more worth it, though obviously the cost of investment is high and you can easily argue against it. Personally I enjoy the move and can accept a ding on my DPS for it.


    [EDIT] - Forgot to comment on your Dark Monk input. Dark Monk indeed has great finishers, but faces a crippling issue: The DCs are still the useless formula of 10 + Monk + Wis. Even with a 100 WIS pure monk, you'd still only have 75 DC (78 with Henshin +3)... that's touching nothing in the end game. This is one of the items I pleaded for the devs to change in multiple threads, but it did not get changed. If they ever do fix the DCs, I expect many monks to convert to Dark. A 25% fort bypass, a 1 minute helpless that you can cast as fast as you can do the 4 button combo, along with some other CCs and a DPS move.... it would be hard pressed to justify giving up all of that for a tediously built up heal and some buffs that have too short of a duration to practically use. Just bring Heal scrolls and maybe cocoon and kick Harmonious to the curb. The heal does have enough party purpose in reaper some may still take it, but if they fix Dark Monk finishers, I really hope they'd seriously buff the duration of Harmonious finishers. That would indeed make the decision tough - the party support of a Light Monk with heals and anti-stun + 2 to saves and skills + 25% SP savings, or the powerful CC and debuffing of a Dark monk. As it is though, Dark Monk is useless due to old DC formulas not scaling to the current game, leaving nothing but Light monks as at least the heal has some form of purpose.
    Last edited by DrawingGuy; 07-22-2017 at 12:37 AM.
    Pinc Punch - Unarmed Monk (Uber Completionist) // Porc the Orc - Paladin // Thunderborn - Warlock // Imustbe Emo - PewPew Rogue // Aquamine Artifact - Crafting Artificer (shelved)

  5. #5
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    Hi Drawing' you are the man for monks, everyone knows that.

    First, I knew you'd tell me you built for QP. And even I felt at some point that in reaper it could be justified. But Sam does not have that greAt QP and has overkill dcs in the rest due to gear, so I am really hard pressed to find a reason for his wis investment.

    As for the dark monk, either o am terribly mistaken or you missed the patch were they changed the way those dcs work. Afaik they scale nicely now!! I have a hard time giving upon the healer finisher though sine it hits me in the ks and I use it to solo le for gear. Otherwise yeah it's clunky and unfun.

    Other issue is dark finishers without touch of death might me a bit redundant since they are mostly some single target stuns.

    Frankly since they gave up on most elemental finishers and henshin attacks I'm finding the monk active combat very underwhelming after a while. I love the speed and style, but it ends up being always very similar combos. Dire charge then WW. Stragglers stunned then kill. Debuff bosses and jade oranges.

    Its auto attack from there on.
    Quote Originally Posted by retrojet View Post
    Why are there entire pure classes still that are completely unusable [...]. Why are there entire trees that no one will ever invest in? Why are there entire destinies that no one will ever play in? Why aren't these questions even on the developer radar screen?

  6. #6

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    Quote Originally Posted by DrawingGuy View Post
    Actually, Erky, Quivering Palm DCs are able to get into useful DCs - I'm able to achieve decidedly more than what Bam is showing:

    10 base + 10 (1/2 Monk) + 3 Fighter PLs + 6 LD Tactics + 45 WIS + 15 Know the Angles = 89 Quivering Palm + 4 if Astral Scion + 2 if Tactics feat = 95. +6 Dread Aversary Tactics in Reaper = 101.

    GMoF can reach higher with WIS in tree and +3 to tactics in cores, but LD offers too much in survivability (with PRR) and DPS to give it up for a bit more DC and moves with even more stunted DCs than Quivering Palm.

    And some numbers for Wis/Int (I did not use max, but rather what I would be at fully buffed):
    18 - Base Wisdom
    7 - Level Ups
    7 - Tome
    2 - Completionist
    2 - Racial Completionist
    1 - Human Racial PLs
    17 - Enhancement (equipment)
    7 - Insightful (equipment)
    4 - Quality (equipment)
    1 - Exceptional (augment)
    2 - Festive (augment)
    8 - Enhancements (6 in Shintao, 1 in Henshin, 1 in Human)
    3 - Action Surge (Human enhancement)
    2 - Ship
    2 - Yugo
    2 - DDO Store/Remnant potion
    2 - Profane (Litany/Band of Insightful)
    2 - Reaper headgear bonus
    -------
    89 WIS


    Other Wis:
    2-5 Touch the Void Dragon
    4 Abishai cookies
    3 Alchemical potion
    4 Water Stance
    2 Acute Instincts
    ------
    104-107 WIS



    14 - Base Intelligence
    7 - Tome
    2 - Completionist
    2 - Racial Completionist
    2 - Racial PLs
    17 - Enhancement (equipment)
    7 - Insightful (equipment)
    4 - Quality (equipment)
    1 - Exceptional (augment)
    2 - Festive (augment)
    2 - Ship
    2 - Yugo
    2 - DDO Store/Remnant potion
    2 - Profane (Litany/Band of Insightful)
    2 - Reaper headgear bonus
    ------
    66 INT

    Other Int:
    2-5 Touch the Void Dragon
    4 Abishai cookies
    3 Alchemical potion
    ------
    75-78


    I'm able to push my QPs into the 90s and can pretty effectively zap casters and rangers, and obviously all of my other DCs are no fail on everything. I've been able to use my QP ever since U19, and even after the U21 nerf, I can't think of the last time I reached 5 stacks of the buff after I invested into KtA. My bigger issue is Ki management as there are a dozen moves I want to use, and the devs still refuse to add new Enhanced Ki items.

    The DPS loss of Dex being a main stat or secondary stat is quite small as most of your stats come from equipment and buffs - the difference lies in those that go Ethereal or those that go Astral.


    TL;DR - Those that build for Quivering Palm can indeed make it useful. With the severe damage scaling in Reaper mode, being able to reach useful QP is more worth it, though obviously the cost of investment is high and you can easily argue against it. Personally I enjoy the move and can accept a ding on my DPS for it.


    [EDIT] - Forgot to comment on your Dark Monk input. Dark Monk indeed has great finishers, but faces a crippling issue: The DCs are still the useless formula of 10 + Monk + Wis. Even with a 100 WIS pure monk, you'd still only have 75 DC (78 with Henshin +3)... that's touching nothing in the end game. This is one of the items I pleaded for the devs to change in multiple threads, but it did not get changed. If they ever do fix the DCs, I expect many monks to convert to Dark. A 25% fort bypass, a 1 minute helpless that you can cast as fast as you can do the 4 button combo, along with some other CCs and a DPS move.... it would be hard pressed to justify giving up all of that for a tediously built up heal and some buffs that have too short of a duration to practically use. Just bring Heal scrolls and maybe cocoon and kick Harmonious to the curb. The heal does have enough party purpose in reaper some may still take it, but if they fix Dark Monk finishers, I really hope they'd seriously buff the duration of Harmonious finishers. That would indeed make the decision tough - the party support of a Light Monk with heals and anti-stun + 2 to saves and skills + 25% SP savings, or the powerful CC and debuffing of a Dark monk. As it is though, Dark Monk is useless due to old DC formulas not scaling to the current game, leaving nothing but Light monks as at least the heal has some form of purpose.
    impressive! And Sam, your gear is insane

    What about a shortcut by lowering the mob's fort save? Would a simple crafted CON damaging effect work? I do not believe there is a cooldown so with monk unarmed high attack speed you could boost your stunning fist and QP very quickly.

  7. #7
    Community Member DrawingGuy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BigErkyKid View Post
    Hi Drawing' you are the man for monks, everyone knows that.

    First, I knew you'd tell me you built for QP. And even I felt at some point that in reaper it could be justified. But Sam does not have that greAt QP and has overkill dcs in the rest due to gear, so I am really hard pressed to find a reason for his wis investment.

    As for the dark monk, either o am terribly mistaken or you missed the patch were they changed the way those dcs work. Afaik they scale nicely now!! I have a hard time giving upon the healer finisher though sine it hits me in the ks and I use it to solo le for gear. Otherwise yeah it's clunky and unfun.

    Other issue is dark finishers without touch of death might me a bit redundant since they are mostly some single target stuns.

    Frankly since they gave up on most elemental finishers and henshin attacks I'm finding the monk active combat very underwhelming after a while. I love the speed and style, but it ends up being always very similar combos. Dire charge then WW. Stragglers stunned then kill. Debuff bosses and jade oranges.

    Its auto attack from there on.
    I do have to agree that his build currently does not justify a WIS as he has the gear to make his main moves work, but not enough investment to make QP work. But it looks like he has a good chunk of PLs behind him and might actually be able to do it. You don't have to go as far as breaking 100 on QP, but if you can reach 90, you're set pretty well.

    And, yes, I was there for the Monk patch. I took a lot of time to test and post detailed threads commenting on the updates and remaining issues, and sadly not a single dev commented on a thing I said. Elemental finishers are indeed junk, with only Earth > Earth > Earth having any purpose with the +2 crit multiplier and can tie nicely with a Monk already spamming Fists of Iron... but with nothing to help crit range, is a gamble and not worth building up if you didn't load FoI. I had many ideas on what they could do for the finishers, but they didn't even go as far as updating their DCs.

    As for Dark Monk, their patch notes said nothing of updating their DCs, the wiki says nothing, and if you look at the tool tips (you can still view Dark Monk finishers in your feat list even as a Light Monk), they still show the old formulas (as does, sadly, Touch of Death). Unfortunately almost all finishers, Elemental, Dark, and Light were essentially ignored in the update. Only some scaling was touched, mainly with FoL finisher and Fire > Fire > Fire was switched from Fire to Melee Power (but still has crappy old formulas). Unless Devs decide to do a "Monk Finisher" pass, Dark Monk will remain dead. I really hope they do, but as long as Monk is doing OK as an auto-attack bot, they'll probably not care.

    *IF* they fixed Dark Monk DCs, you'd be able to keep multiple targets helpless as well as have a second CC that works on reapers. That is pretty darn powerful because when you get those 3+ reaper pops, you often can't kill them fast enough before they take out a party member, but if you could Jade one and Paralyze another... No, unless they also made Light Monk finishers more powerful, I see them being pretty close to the old days of Monk with 90% of Monks being dark.

    That said, you're basically right. Most of the finishers are not that strong, and Ki management is already strict. It works pretty well for those that just Stun, Tomb, and Light... but the second you start adding more moves, you burn your Ki and can no longer use your mainstay moves... that's why I loved Visions of Precision from U27. That lifted the management restriction, and I actually actively used other moves to keep 25% SP savings on casters when I could, and +2 saves for those that kept close to me. It takes a lot to maintain those with a 1 minute duration, but Visions allowed me to do it and was a game changer for me. Instead of 3-4 moves, I was using a dozen and having a blast... then U29 happened and the WIS stats became junk for a level 28 item. It became tougher and tougher to justify giving up an entire slot for just Enhanced Ki. I truly wish they'll stop ignoring my requests for a new Enhanced Ki item and for it to be a regular consideration. The more boring and static power move cycle does not need the Enhanced Ki item, so all it does is allow more active gameplay and those that like to play like I do to have more fun. Until then, it's the tiny pool. I would say that it's worth using at least Jade Strike on trash (especially Reapers) as well since Tomb on crit is a worthwhile gamble.


    @Saekee - Throwing Wounding on is indeed quite effective in Heroics, especially considering that crafted weapons more than compete with Heroic for DPS. Once you get into Epics, stat damage becomes very weak as stat values are huge and they recover in seconds. The more effective debuffing method is deleveling - which is why Sam has a TF Crippling Flame slotted with an Endless Night ruby. Grave Wrappings could cover that duty until you reach 28. That's where Sam's combo suggestions are nice: Charge with your affirmation weapon, which should proc your 1k HP > Swap to Crippling Flames wraps and Helicopter Kick > QP at your priority target (caster > ranger > target that you saw got hit by a neg level or two) > Stunning Fist the next priority target. Tomb of Jade should come before the QP if there is a Reaper or a crown that would otherwise be immune to QP/stun. Obviously there is a balance on when you should use Crippling Flame wraps on trash - content where Mortal Fear still works, that's stronger; content where the targets you can already kill everything with just a helicopter kick or two you want to use DPS wraps (such as Storm Harness or LGS); you're trying to build up Ki and can already CC your targets; etc. But neg levels/debuffing are indeed another factor in making QP effective.
    Pinc Punch - Unarmed Monk (Uber Completionist) // Porc the Orc - Paladin // Thunderborn - Warlock // Imustbe Emo - PewPew Rogue // Aquamine Artifact - Crafting Artificer (shelved)

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by DrawingGuy View Post
    As for Dark Monk, their patch notes said nothing of updating their DCs, the wiki says nothing, and if you look at the tool tips (you can still view Dark Monk finishers in your feat list even as a Light Monk), they still show the old formulas (as does, sadly, Touch of Death).
    I am almost sure they did update them. After writing here I checked the wiki, no luck. But I do think they added gear bonuses to dark. I just couldn't find it anywhere.

    Either way, the game has evolved towards packs of trash, and as such stuns IMHO are not that game changing. Sure, it can help, specially with very tough mobs, but in a good group someone is doing a better job at that anyway.

    IMHO it would be more interesting to have tactical DCs above spell DCs, although single target, and more priority targets out there.

    At the moment, though, I feel that monk fails badly to live up to its reputation in active combat. I mean, to be fair, the vast majority of melees do. If you think of the impact that the majority of active abilities have, save dire charge, I think it is clear that is pretty minor. Don't get me wrong, it can matter in some scenarios, but it is not where most power is.

    That's why when the monk pass came I did try to bring attention to the single target VS AoE tactical debate, and to the monk finishers. To be frank monk mostly consisted on an auto attack pass. Only a fraction of what makes a monk a monk was updated. Sure, they hit like a truck, and some of the abilities have been scaled. But again, most of the time you are dire charging + WW. Against bosses you pop your rotation of debuffs and auto attack.

    My last hope for active meaningful combat (in terms of special abilities) is for druid with animal forms. Because while they won't probably code more abilities, I think it is possible that they scale the existing ones.

    I was planning to do a review on all active abilities across classes but I am not sure it is worth the time.
    Quote Originally Posted by retrojet View Post
    Why are there entire pure classes still that are completely unusable [...]. Why are there entire trees that no one will ever invest in? Why are there entire destinies that no one will ever play in? Why aren't these questions even on the developer radar screen?

  9. #9
    Community Member Morroiel's Avatar
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    Can't +1 you

    It's about time someone made an actual monk build thread so I can link to it.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vargouille View Post
    A new harder difficulty is likely to just be that: harder, without giving commensurate power...Ideally, at the very hardest edge of difficulty, we would not know how long it would take until all quests are completed on that difficulty.

  10. #10
    Community Member DrawingGuy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BigErkyKid View Post
    I am almost sure they did update them. After writing here I checked the wiki, no luck. But I do think they added gear bonuses to dark. I just couldn't find it anywhere.

    Either way, the game has evolved towards packs of trash, and as such stuns IMHO are not that game changing. Sure, it can help, specially with very tough mobs, but in a good group someone is doing a better job at that anyway.

    IMHO it would be more interesting to have tactical DCs above spell DCs, although single target, and more priority targets out there.

    At the moment, though, I feel that monk fails badly to live up to its reputation in active combat. I mean, to be fair, the vast majority of melees do. If you think of the impact that the majority of active abilities have, save dire charge, I think it is clear that is pretty minor. Don't get me wrong, it can matter in some scenarios, but it is not where most power is.

    That's why when the monk pass came I did try to bring attention to the single target VS AoE tactical debate, and to the monk finishers. To be frank monk mostly consisted on an auto attack pass. Only a fraction of what makes a monk a monk was updated. Sure, they hit like a truck, and some of the abilities have been scaled. But again, most of the time you are dire charging + WW. Against bosses you pop your rotation of debuffs and auto attack.

    My last hope for active meaningful combat (in terms of special abilities) is for druid with animal forms. Because while they won't probably code more abilities, I think it is possible that they scale the existing ones.

    I was planning to do a review on all active abilities across classes but I am not sure it is worth the time.
    While the game going to heavy mob density definitely favors those with mass CC, especially those with multi checks (Evard's, Web, Dance, Earthquake), the Champion system does provide a priority target system for the higher DCs of tactics. However I definitely feel that there's room for more AOE tactics options. Makes me think of back in the day when Cleaves were broken on Unarmed... so if you timed it right, you could have a Stunning Fist be triggered on your cleave for an AOE stun (or even QP, but even before the massive scaling spike, QP had junk DCs). Epic Destinies do touch on two with Lay Waste in LD and Drifting Lotus in GMoF... but both have poor DCs. They are both knockdowns and should benefit from Trip tactics. I really do hope they do a pass on the underperforming Destinies (GMoF, Shadow Dancer, Fatesinger, Magister). I *want* to run GMoF as the flower Ki strike line could add depth to a Monk... but the moves are weak damage and weak DCs. I made a post a long time ago on how I think they should fix GMoF, but the two biggest factors is first seriously boost the damage and add scaling to the flower moves - make GMoF DPS compete against LD and DC with active gameplay. Secondly lower the cooldown of Wholeness of Spirit (30 seconds or 1 min at the most) and make it Ally targetable as well. But I've not seen a single peep from Devs mentioning the consideration of working on Epic Destinies, so the passive power and auto-attack playstyle of LD is here to stay for the foreseeable future.
    Pinc Punch - Unarmed Monk (Uber Completionist) // Porc the Orc - Paladin // Thunderborn - Warlock // Imustbe Emo - PewPew Rogue // Aquamine Artifact - Crafting Artificer (shelved)

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by DrawingGuy View Post
    While the game going to heavy mob density definitely favors those with mass CC, especially those with multi checks (Evard's, Web, Dance, Earthquake), the Champion system does provide a priority target system for the higher DCs of tactics. However I definitely feel that there's room for more AOE tactics options. Makes me think of back in the day when Cleaves were broken on Unarmed... so if you timed it right, you could have a Stunning Fist be triggered on your cleave for an AOE stun (or even QP, but even before the massive scaling spike, QP had junk DCs). Epic Destinies do touch on two with Lay Waste in LD and Drifting Lotus in GMoF... but both have poor DCs. They are both knockdowns and should benefit from Trip tactics. I really do hope they do a pass on the underperforming Destinies (GMoF, Shadow Dancer, Fatesinger, Magister). I *want* to run GMoF as the flower Ki strike line could add depth to a Monk... but the moves are weak damage and weak DCs. I made a post a long time ago on how I think they should fix GMoF, but the two biggest factors is first seriously boost the damage and add scaling to the flower moves - make GMoF DPS compete against LD and DC with active gameplay. Secondly lower the cooldown of Wholeness of Spirit (30 seconds or 1 min at the most) and make it Ally targetable as well. But I've not seen a single peep from Devs mentioning the consideration of working on Epic Destinies, so the passive power and auto-attack playstyle of LD is here to stay for the foreseeable future.
    For me the thing is that auto attack plus positioning is not enough. I like feeling that using abilities well (timing) has spectacular results. DnD has tons of special attacks an abilities that are interesting and strategic.

    For example, in high level reaper runs, things become a bit tedious for me. Granted I have been unable to do many of them due to lack of groups and my guild running racial TRs. But even then, most of the time I feel a lot of it is mowing down huge sacks HPs of held mobs. True, that champion can be pesky, and so on, but it is not necessarily the core of the gameplay.

    Casters are another example of descend to simpler gameplay. Most spell variety does not scale well, ending up with few buttons wonders in epics.

    In my honest opinion, the potential for active abilities to matter more is there. They just need to lower cool downs, make DCs reasonable, and up the effectiveness. As an example, for me a smite should be an awesome BOOM button. As it is it barely kills a trash mob. An elemental finisher like fire-fire-fire should have the DPS potential of say WW, for my taste. And so on. Taking the time to press the abilities should be much more rewarded.

    Again, it is super simple of scaling things up.

    But not to get too far from the OP (right...). I would certainly go DEX. There is almost no reason for him to stay WIS based, and more DPS should always be taken when available. After all, this is a super optimized toon anyway.

    Aside from this, I would definitely check whether dark monk DCs have been updated. If they have, then I would recommend right away switching to dark. The clunky heal is not important anyway in reaper.
    Quote Originally Posted by retrojet View Post
    Why are there entire pure classes still that are completely unusable [...]. Why are there entire trees that no one will ever invest in? Why are there entire destinies that no one will ever play in? Why aren't these questions even on the developer radar screen?

  12. #12
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    Great discussion! The only thing I need to disagree with is my 7 level-ups in WIS.

    1. My QP works on targets who have a low natural fortitude save. Black abashi, or human raced archer, or caster. Some races have higher fort saves, i.e., Lizards, Ogres.
    2. EIN is a fun an efficient tactical nuke in some quests. I've used it in a few r6 firepeaks as well as r10 slavers on the oozes. [Shadow dancer is also good.]
    3. Jade Strike fails more than occasionally at even my DC on select targets. E.x., Harry, Various Caster Red Names.

    I feel +3 tactical DCs, and another EIN DC, make for a better monk. I don't have the patience to make an argument about dps BUT, if Jade Strike is not landing on a boss target, then I feel that you are failing in your job as a monk. That said, I have a friend who dumped WIS almost entirely and only gets to use unbalancing strike, dire charge, etc. on weak targets. Great DPS toon.

    ~

    I second the comments about putting in Knock the Sky and Eagle Claw, as well as Henshin t4 MP, unless another monk is carrying it. I kinda feel like knock the sky doesn't do anything but it may just be me. I do run them but ATM I didn't put them in due to button overload. I am already mashing a 10 button mouse with 3 modifier keys furiously. Leave me in peace! lol

    ~

    The displayed DCs on ki-finishers were updated, but they are still using the old formulas. They land on nothing. That said. The dark dark dark finisher DOES work with the displayed DC for fortification debuff. The fists of light still works in reaper though, and I like having the party heal, as well as the Water-Light-Water for helping DC casters. YMMV. Monk has good flavor and its up to you to get the taste right for yourself.

    <3
    Last edited by Sam-u-r-eye; 07-23-2017 at 09:06 PM.
    You can run level cap quests for epic xp, but you can't run non-level cap quests for RXP when you're capped.
    r10 @ 30 stuff, sorc, monk,Ghallanda

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sam-u-r-eye View Post
    The displayed DCs on ki-finishers were updated, but they are still using the old formulas. They land on nothing. That said. The dark dark dark attack DOES work with the displayed DC for fortification debuff. The fists of light still works in reaper though, and I like having the party heal, as well as the Water-Light-Water for helping DC casters.
    Any chance you could go into greater detail on this ?

    Would be good to bring to the attention of the devs exactly what is and what isn't working.

    Hey, perhaps it's even something Lynnabel could take a look at (in her copious quantities of spare time <grin>) ....

  14. #14
    Community Member DrawingGuy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sam-u-r-eye View Post
    Great discussion! The only thing I need to disagree with is my 7 level-ups in WIS.

    1. My QP works on targets who have a low natural fortitude save. Black abashi, or human raced archer, or caster. Some races have higher fort saves, i.e., Lizards, Ogres.
    There are indeed targets you can still use DCs that are in the 70s, but really only low fort save races with low for save classes... not useless, but pretty niche. I do think the DCs need to be worked on if you can. Once you hit the 80s, you'll see a big jump in effectiveness. 90s is when you'll be basically no-fail on most low-fort targets, and be able to touch even some high fort (though high fort classes on high fort races like Ogres Barbs will still be low chance without debuffing, so would still only stun those types of tragets). If you can't push your DCs out of the 70s, the question does remain if you're gaining enough for the DPS loss.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sam-u-r-eye View Post
    2. EIN is a fun an efficient tactical nuke in some quests. I've used it in a few r6 firepeaks as well as r10 slavers on the oozes. [Shadow dancer is also good.]
    EIN does indeed have places where it's useful - Firepeaks being one of the classic places having less extreme base saves and having mainly non-caster spawns with low will saves. But then there are also quests where even extreme WIS builds like myself still have EIN fail 95% of the time. Even if EIN was always effective, it is still a crutch on a generally weak epic destiny. All moves are a DPS loss, offers no solid core or AP DPS boosts, and no DPS Epic Moment... so it's one of the weakest DPS Destinies. Then survivability, the only PRR is Earth only and only 15, the dodge clicky is the weakest of all the EDs and yet is stuffed into Tier 6, the self heal is on a crippled 5 minute timer making it nothing more than a rare kitten button with no active gameplay potential, and many of its core abilities are covered by low level access elsewhere.... tumbling through enemies is T1 Magister or T1 Deep Gnome, Slippery Surface immunity is covered by FOM buff/pots/items, and the knockdown immunity can be covered by being an active enough player to block on known swings (and where that doesn't help, this immunity doesn't work either like on many dragon knockdowns). Both Legendary Dreadnought offer much more in survivability on top of their vastly superior DPS boosts. For example, let's look at what LD gives you:

    Defensive:
    * +60 HP
    * Anti CC clicky (this is extremely powerful for survivability)
    * 25% defense boost for when you're fighting a hard hitting boss or crown that you know you won't be able to CC
    * 30 PRR from Blitz
    * 20 PRR if you use Combat Expertise (though this can be twisted)

    Offensive:
    * 64 more MP while Blitzed
    * +1[W] while boosted, which you should always be because
    * Haste and Melee Power boosts
    * 20s action boost cooldowns to allow 100% boost uptime
    * +50% helpless damage
    * +1 crit range
    * +1 crit multiplier on 19-20
    * +6 damage (built up on crits, but should be easy when combined with crit range and fast attacks)
    * +6 crit damage (assuming you take this over CON)

    Even when you're not blitzing, the damage difference between LD and GMoF is huge. Add in the much stronger survivability, and not only can you handle aggro better than a GMoF user when their EIN isn't up (or useless due to high saves), but your Dire Charge > Helicopter kick is much more powerful on trash so you'd be able to kill much more in the amount of time a GMoF is waiting 5 minutes for EIN cooldowns.

    Some situations may exist where an EIN alone is strong enough of a reason to give up everything for (like the examples you gave), but those are rare and does not mean GMoF is in a good or even an OK place.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sam-u-r-eye View Post
    3. Jade Strike fails more than occasionally at even my DC on select targets. E.x., Harry, Various Caster Red Names.

    I feel +3 tactical DCs, and another EIN DC, make for a better monk. I don't have the patience to make an argument about dps BUT, if Jade Strike is not landing on a boss target, then I feel that you are failing in your job as a monk. That said, I have a friend who dumped WIS almost entirely and only gets to use unbalancing strike, dire charge, etc. on weak targets. Great DPS toon.
    If you are taking the efforts to raise your stats as I list in my thread, you should be able to push your Jade Strike DC into the 130s without the help of GMoF. There are some extreme targets out there where the "overkill" DCs come in handy - I've never had to worry about my Jade Strike or Unbalancing Strike landing. GMoF indeed helps DCs, but +3 doesn't come close to justify what you lose compared to what you get from LD, DC, or even Unyielding.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sam-u-r-eye View Post
    I second the comments about putting in Knock the Sky and Eagle Claw, as well as Henshin t4 MP, unless another monk is carrying it. I kinda feel like knock the sky doesn't do anything but it may just be me. I do run them but ATM I didn't put them in due to button overload. I am already mashing a 10 button mouse with 3 modifier keys furiously. Leave me in peace! lol
    Knock the Sky in my experience helps, though admittedly I haven't really tried since the Monk Pass to see if they broke it. Knock the Sky was the key for my being able to tank Reaver in LE Tempest Spine. I use a 20 button MMO mouse (though only 12 are mapped for skills) along with custom keyboard mapping (I have 8 keyboard buttons mapped for skills), and then those 20 buttons are alternately mapped to modifier keys SHIFT and CTRL.... 60 buttons, and I could use every single one if the Devs would give back Enhanced Ki items. Though unless you never tank, only do content with targets that do manageable damage (or would still be 1-shots even after a full debuff), or have a static reliable monk in party that rolls it, I consider it worth the load.


    Quote Originally Posted by Sam-u-r-eye View Post
    The displayed DCs on ki-finishers were updated, but they are still using the old formulas. They land on nothing. That said. The dark dark dark finisher DOES work with the displayed DC for fortification debuff. The fists of light still works in reaper though, and I like having the party heal, as well as the Water-Light-Water for helping DC casters. YMMV. Monk has good flavor and its up to you to get the taste right for yourself.
    I switched my Monk to Dark and can confirm that Dark finishers now at least display DCs that include Stunning Tactics, but haven't done any conclusive testing if these DCs are reflective of actual gameplay. Taking Sam at his word, that explains why the Dark Monk surge has not started. Note, though, that Touch of Death still only displays and uses the old useless formula, so a handwrap monk should definitely not touch T5 Ninja Spy.
    Pinc Punch - Unarmed Monk (Uber Completionist) // Porc the Orc - Paladin // Thunderborn - Warlock // Imustbe Emo - PewPew Rogue // Aquamine Artifact - Crafting Artificer (shelved)

  15. #15
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    We adapt a build to the challenge it is directed at. My above is a standard set-up. Quibbling about my QP DC for less than 3% dps, or losing windstance to go for it deeper and giving up 10% DPS, is a silly discussion. I keep level-ups in Wisdom to keep my options open. I wanted to also address an earlier point.

    @DrawingGuy
    Experience also bears out meld. I frequently get people questioning that. It is rubbish to question the usefulness of it. An EIN burst, or a meld, or a fury shot are all tactical abilities for attempting difficult content. Monks are all about the tools in the toolbox.
    You can run level cap quests for epic xp, but you can't run non-level cap quests for RXP when you're capped.
    r10 @ 30 stuff, sorc, monk,Ghallanda

  16. #16
    Death's Dominator Eth's Avatar
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    Unless something broke again I don't think your comment on madstone boots is correct. See my two year old post here:

    Quote Originally Posted by Eth View Post
    On madstone boots:
    Just tested 60 seconds of swinging with a THF.
    I did a video and counted the attacks frame by frame and ended up with 100 attack animations, which is in line with vanshilar's attack speed data for 15% alacrity (https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthrea...x-and-Formulae).

    So this info from the wiki is still accurate I'd say: http://ddowiki.com/page/Madstone_Reaction
    Bug: The attack-speed bonus is listed as 20% - and used to fully function at that rate pre-Update 5. Update 5 heavily modified attack rates, and madstone was probably unintentionally reduced along with many others. It's unclear if this will ever be fixed (or how it will be fixed), but the devs do consider it a bug still since the items description does not match it's effect.


    It lists 20% but is actually 15%.
    Thelanis - Ethforged - Etherar - Fjirty --- Mitis Mors
    Ghallanda - Ethrayne - Ethryne --- Omnipresence
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  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eth View Post
    Unless something broke again I don't think your comment on madstone boots is correct. See my two year old post here:
    This is a long time later, but I'm updating the thread so I needed to respond to Eth even though he's no longer playing.
    I checked the video animations of the attack and the alacrity seems to be working. The character sheet also displays 20%. I don't know what other data Eth had. I'm sure a more robust test could be done, but I'm happy with what I'm seeing.

    Last edited by Sam-u-r-eye; 10-07-2018 at 05:58 PM.
    You can run level cap quests for epic xp, but you can't run non-level cap quests for RXP when you're capped.
    r10 @ 30 stuff, sorc, monk,Ghallanda

  18. #18
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    Changes:
    -> Race Change to Asamir
    -> Purchase of Falconry... ...testing shows Dex-based monks do more damage but Falconry gives DCs to abilities.
    -> Ravenloft Gear Update

    New AP Split:
    7 AP Asamir
    41 AP Shintao
    24 AP Falconry (Cleave to recharge Deadly Instinct, and hp @ tier 3) -> (Don't pass on sprint boost... ...you'll go so fast you rubber band.)
    1 AP Ninja Spy (Shortsword prof. for me since I crafted them for LGS procs etc)
    7 AP left over

    You'll see that the 7 AP is not enough to get Shadow Veil from Ninja Spy for the extra incorporeal and invis clicky. For this reason (and because I have two racial points), I take the melee power in Asamir.

    New Gear:
    Silent Avenger Set (Cloak, Belt, Armour)
    Perfect Pinnacle (Ring)

    I avoided mists set, since its hard to get it without losing healing amp somewhere else. Spell absorb is required IMO or I would put it on trinket.

    These are the other slots. I manage to get insightful accuracy and insightful/quality prr. IMO this is a reasonable swap for the mists set melee power, and allows more flexibility in trinket and necklace swaps.
    Last edited by Sam-u-r-eye; 10-07-2018 at 06:17 PM.
    You can run level cap quests for epic xp, but you can't run non-level cap quests for RXP when you're capped.
    r10 @ 30 stuff, sorc, monk,Ghallanda

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