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  1. #1
    Community Member Phil7's Avatar
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    Default Boss Debuffer and reaper composition

    Something interesting happened to me lately... something which made me think, what if debuffing bosses is actually viable?

    I was running an EE LoD farming tokens and some dude was in Divine Crusader using Purification. He stood next to the drow boss who at first hit me for 100+ dmg and then after some seconds he kept dealing 0 damage to me. At first I was like "Huh?" but then I Z'd the boss and saw he had 25 stacks of Purification.
    Which means -25 damage and -50 spell power.

    That is interesting because if he was dealing let's say 130 dmg per hit, he should be dealing 105 dmg per hit after the debuff. But it seems that bosses are also affected from Melee/Ranged Power and dungeon scaling and that means lowering their base damage is very effective. So how would this affect reaper bosses who have insane damage scaling?

    After that I did a bit of research and found most of the useful player-available debuffs for bosses in the game. They are few unfortunately but it turns out that the best theoritical Debuffer would be the... warlock.

    So here is my list of noticable debuffs that we can use (I propably forgot something):

    DEBUFFS

    Aura of Purification: Active Ability: (Cooldown 3 seconds) Toggle: Every 3 Seconds While Active: Nearby enemies gain a stack of Purification. Purification: -1 Attack Damage, -2 Spell Power, stacks up to 25 times.

    *Could this be effective enough to help your fellow tank in high reaper?

    Bound Fate: (Active Cooldown: 4mins) A single target must make a Will save with a DC modified by the caster's Charisma modifier. On a failed save, the target is bound briefly to the spot, and for one minute is also [6/10/12]% more vulnerable to magical damage, and has -[6/10/12] Spell Resistance. In addition, the creature deals -[4/6/8] damage on attacks. Duration 45 seconds.

    Grim Fate: Your Bound Fate now inflicts creatures with an additional [6%/10%/12%] vulnerability to Physical attacks. Grim Fate may take effect even if Bound Fate does not. Duration 1 minute.

    *Another -8 damage to stack and extra physical/magic damage for the group. Does this stack with Vulnerability? Well examining a boss with both effects applied shows both icons on the Examine Window so I would assume it stacks.
    Cooldown of 4 mins with 1min duration is not bad, it basically screams "boss fights!", but Fatesinger has so far been a completely neglected Destiny and would net a huge DPS loss for most builds, except for the healer or the CC/instakill caster.
    Ok after further testing it seems that the Bound/Grim Fate will always work on everything. The Will save is only for the immobilization effect.

    So which Destiny should the healer and the CC caster choose? Odysseus2011 already showed us that you can play a CC/insta-kills caster in R10 in Unyielding Sentinel (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F9WSOa9vrpw). That means we don't need to be in Magister/Exalted Angel to play in R10 as a DC caster.


    WARLOCK DEBUFFER

    Now I said the best Debuffer imo would be the Warlock. That is because of his Soul Eater tree and his Eldritch Burst which during boss-fights provide free empowered dots, free damage from safety and a lot of debuffs. Let's see:

    Devour the Soul: apart from the free death-spell you get a 6 second debuff for -20PRR/MRR.
    If this works on bosses you basically have more DPS for your group. With a 15 second cooldown

    Stricken: reduce HAMP by -120 with a high saving throw. A lot of bosses regen so that's a nice one.

    Taint the Aura: Debuff your target for -10 PRR/MRR = more group DPS.

    Strickened Soul: Against targets marked by your Stricken attack: Your Eldritch Blast, Melee and Ranged attacks reduce the target's MP/RP/SP by -20 for 10 seconds.
    More damage debuff on bosses. Theoritically more survivability for your group.

    Strickened Form Against targets marked by your Stricken attack: Your melee, ranged and Eldritch Blast attacks inflict Vulnerability.

    *With this you can cap 20 stacks of Vulnerability in less than 30 seconds. Imo this is op and needs to be nerfed using internal cooldown like most similar effects, but atm people can abuse it. And a single party member can keep up Vulnerability on bosses with this. Your DPSers can now use other weapons during boss fights, although LGS Vacuums are still strong for trash.

    But there is more... and some might realize now why I claimed before that Wizards are unfortunately dead in high reaper. Because look at the video. The wizard is totally inactive during the boss fight. If he starts dotting he can kiss goodbye to his Spell Points. Sorcerers are in a bit better position due to much more Spell Points and half the cooldowns/casting speed, but imo Warlock is still the #1 CC/insta-killer in high reaper. And Debuffer on top of that.


    EXALTED ANGEL

    Now which Destiny should our warlock use? Exalted Angel for the increased DCs right? Yes, but not only for the DCs.

    Rebuke foe: this is insane! +25% physical and light damage (Consume, Stricken, Eldritch Burst) is incredible.

    Shadows Upon You: I don't remember if this works on bosses, but if it does then you can most likely apply Stricken,
    Jade Strike and Prismatic Strike on bosses without fear of low DCs. Just combine this with the Wizard Active Past Life feat (magic missiles) and instantly stack it to 10.


    GEAR

    *Now how can we add even more debuffs to a Debuffer build? Through gear of course. Normally a DC caster at cap would use a Legendary Mutilator of Minds and a LGS Affirmation. Vacuum is no longer needed because of Strickened Form and your DPSers also applying Vulnerability most of the time. But Legendary Mutilator of Minds is kind of useless on boss fights when the trash is dead.

    So dual wield Affirmation & Vacuum you say? Or triple acid? Well this is debatable. I have not seen results from all the LGS weapon effects, like LGS Water or Magma, but don't forget this thread is all about group composition and teamwork.
    So why not focus even more on debuffing? After all you will have 3 DPSers and yourself to enjoy more damage.

    Legendary Dust: -35 PRR and -100 hamp at full stack. 11 seconds duration each stack. Even more damage for you and your group, even less self-healing for the boss!

    Legendary Ooze: wiki says 100% proc for -10PRR/MRR, not sure if it stacks + free Ooze for you. Eldritch Burst attack speed is slow so don't expect much here, especially if the debuff doesn't stack. Also legendary oozes seem to have been nerfed and now hit for 50 damage at r10. RIP LGS Ooze...

    Legendary Ash: -MRR and SP, I don't know if it stacks or not. MRR is not that significant compared to PRR because of melees/ranged having better DPS than casters and boss spells are not that dangerous compared to physical attacks. Still it's a debuff and it can prove useful.

    *So using the above one can achieve a theoritical -75 PRR or -55 PRR if the SE capstone doesn't debuff bosses. According to the wiki, 75 PRR is around 42-43% Damage Reduction.
    Assuming a boss has 75 PRR and we reduce it to 0, then every melee/ranged member of your group will be dealing 42-43% MORE DAMAGE.
    For 55 PRR on a 55 PRR boss that is around 35% MORE DAMAGE for your melee/ranged DPSers. And all of this with a minimal damage loss for your DC caster!

    edit: the numbers can go higher using Ooze Flask (-8 PRR)! Thanks to Tlorrd for mentioning it.


    MONK

    *So let's also add Monk to the group. Monks have very strong melee single target dps and good burst-AoE damage.
    They also bring with them Knock on the Sky. Stack this 5 times for a -20% damage debuff.

    Monks also have Jade Strike which gives a +10% physical damage debuff on a high Will save. Another reason to have a monk in your group.

    And of course Focus for a stacking group buff of +5MP/RP and +10 SP.


    HEALER

    Very nice now I've also mentioned a Healer. What, should he just stand there and heal? That's boring come on. How about a bit of buffing and debuffing? Why don't we give him a bit of love with Aura of Purification for mob debuffing? I don't expect him to stand next to the boss for 25 seconds to cap the debuff on him. No no, Divine Crusader has a lot of tricks for stacking Purification. That will not be an issue.

    And let's not forget Crusade for +10% group damage.
    No Remorse for free ally healing too.
    One can also twist in Sigil of Battering Spellcraft from Magister for the SP boost, but caster dps is lagging behind melee and ranged dps so it's not that significant.
    Summer Smoke is also a decent passive DPS boost to your group, but situational due to fire immune mobs and Autumn Harvest can be useful during trash fights.

    Cleric: after the upcoming pass a Cleric using Earthquake for increased CC and playing in Divine Crusader is a great option for the healer role.
    Take Divine Vitality for your fellow caster and Reactive Heal for everyone in the group along with Positive Aura for group regeneration.
    *Earthquake is imo one of the best CC spells in the game by far, along with Otto's Sphere of Dancing and Evard's Tentacles. Long duration AoE spells which reapply their CC effect every few seconds. Evard's Tentacles sacrifice duration for the helpless damage, something which Earthquake and Otto's Sphere don't have, but would be op if they did.

    I've seen a number of people and guildies playing healer/cleric at R10 and I noticed the lack of activity from the class. At times it could be extremely demanding tho if your group was getting wrecked. You have to be very fast at healing/ressing and also avoid mobs and notice the chat or hear your teammates screaming to see who is ressable or not. The above mentioned abilities add a lot of passive healing and safety to help against situations like these. It also makes the role more enjoyable and makes you feel that you are contributing more to fights.

    Favored Soul: you can play this build in Exalted Angel using insta-kills in addition to healing.
    Purification can still be stacked from you and your party members using Interrogation and Purge the Wicked. This can speed up boss fights through faster Rebuke Foe stacking and allow for more insta-kills, but will overall apply less stacks of Purification to trash mobs as opposed to a Divine Crusader healer and you lose Earthquake. It sacrifices safety for speed. Read HERE for more info.
    *If playing as a FVS/Cleric insta-kill build with maxed Necro DC then you can also use Symbol of Weakness on bosses for a maximum 3d6 STR penalty.
    According to the wiki (http://ddowiki.com/page/Named_monste...ul_Named_Enemy) the abilities of Red Named bosses can only be reduced by 10 (max -5 damage) and Purple Named bosses are immune to ability damage.

    Bard: I was looking for ways to add the Fatesinger destiny in the group composition without hurting the overall group DPS. I had already considered the Bard as a main group Healer, but the benefits of a FVS or a Cleric looked better in theory... until I decided to sum up all the possible buffs/debuffs the Bard can bring in a fight
    So let me give you a quick glimpse of how a Warchanter Bard in Fatesinger can contribute:

    +2 abilities, competence - group buff (Inspire Excellence)
    +12 dmg/+12 to-hit, moral - group buffs (improved Inspired Courage with Warchanter & Fatesinger - Echoes: Martial - LD)
    +5 dmg/to-hit, +15 prr/resists, music - on 1 ally for 2 mins (Inspire Heroics + Warchanter capstone)
    +6 Spell Power/DBstrike/DBshot, music - group buff (Warchanter)
    +3 dmg, +1 CHA, untyped - group buff (Fascinate + Sharp Note/Masked Ball)
    +1dmg/to-hit (Enchant Weapon)
    +1 spell DCs, +10% (morale) SP discount, group buff (Spellsinger)
    +3 Spell Penetration, on 1 ally for 4mins (Spellsinger)
    +6% melee/ranged dmg/spell crit chance, music - group buff (Warchanter T5)
    -3 to a specific Saving Throw, debuff (Insults, Swashbuckler T1)
    +3% melee atk speed, competence - group buff (Fragment of the Song: Valor)
    2% chance to cause 5% electric/light/sonic Vulnerability debuff, group buff (stacks 3 times) (Fragment of the Song: Valor)
    No to-hit penalties when moving, group buff (Fragment of the Song: Valor)
    +12% Physical & Magical dmg, -8 enemy dmg, -12 Spell Resistance, no save debuffs, 1min duration, 4min cooldown (Bound & Grim Fate)

    And on top of that you have Otto's Sphere of Dancing and Mass-Charms! Seriously I'm surprised I've been so ignorant of the build's buffing potential.

    For one of your DPS members this would be a rough +22 dmg/to-hit, +6% DBstrike/shot, +3% melee atk speed, +6 MP/RP and +12% more damage on boss fights for 1 minute every 4 minutes.
    This is a huge buffing potential right here and imo a well-geared Bard with the proper past lives is the best class to choose for the Healer role in terms of speed in high-reaper dungeons. Note that the Bard's contribution to group DPS through buffs drops significantly when you have fewer melee/ranged DPS members. To stack Purification basically use the same method as the above FVS build and twist in Crusade for the +10% group damage boost.

    *Please do not forget the entire purpose of this thread... to maximize efficiency and speed in end-game R10 dungeons. This is only a reminder before anyone says "You have just invalidated all the other healer builds out there because of Bards". No, all the other healer builds are still viable, are easier to play and can also heal better than the Bard. The Bard is only imo the best at playing the Healer role, while simultaneously adding a great deal of group DPS through buffs. Not to mention that playing a Bard alone requires much more concentration due to all the buffs and debuffs which you have to constantly reapply.


    Well that's it mostly for Buffers/Debuffers and Healers. Don't forget this all depends on team effort and grouping for maximum efficiency. This is my theoritical best "approach" or 6-man group composition for r10 quests in terms of speed and increased group safety. This does not mean that you are not allowed to play different builds in r10. You can always add more casters or more healers in your group, but sacrifice speed and DPS for safety.

    After all this is a game and I can't tell you what to play, I can only show you how to improve.
    But the most important of all, epics are dead right now so first we need SSG fixing epic rxp and then... we'll see. Perhaps I'll bump this thread again then


    And let's not forget...

    TANK & DPS

    My notes on the Tank and the DPSers, just to fill the whole group composition:

    Tank builds are still not very clear, in terms of efficiency. Imo the pure fighter Dwarf tank is the best IF the character has a lot of displacement and radiant forcefield clickies. Otherwise Pally and Sorc/Wiz splashes are also great.

    DPS builds: My opinion is that sustained DPS will triumph over burst dps in high reaper. Mobs have tons of HP and we have terrible damage. Fights take much longer and sustained DPS almost always wins in longer fights.

    Now with the Wolf fix (no more Dance of Death or lose SWF) pure Tempests are propably the #1 melee situational sustained-AoE DPS and with insane single target sustained DPS. Yep they do pretty much everything.

    Mechanics are propably the #1 ranged option for their best ranged sustained DPS, especially now with the AA imbue fix. Sneak Damage which Mechanics have plenty of is not reduced by the scaling DR that some bosses and mobs have therefore giving the class even more of an advantage. They also obviously do traps which are killer for non-evasioners in R10.

    Monk: One unarmed Monk is great to have in an organized group due to Knock on the Sky, Jade Strike, Focus and of course its great melee dps.

    MORE DPS OPTIONS

    Monkchers are still very good in some situations like Shroud part 2 to burst down the crystal. The AA T5 active ability fix really hurt their burst damage with shurikens, but you can always save Bow & Manyshot for bosses/crystal.

    Artificer can be a great replacement for a Mechanic, bringing not only buffs for your teammates like Radiant Forcefield and Weapon DR breakers, but also strong trash CC through Endless Fusilade and specific gear/twists. The DPS of a pure Arti is imo less than that of a pure rogue Mechanic, but Arties also bring with them Prismatic Strike for a -25% damabe debuff! You can read my original post regarding Artificers HERE

    Assassin: the class has very strong single-target DPS especially when you maximize your Sneak Damage and can also insta-kill, but the AoE damage requires Cleaves and assassins are not exactly the best at cleaving. Assassins also have Weakening Strikes which reduce enemy MP/RP by 20 (many thanks to Qezuzu for mentioning this!) and Poison Strikes to reduce enemy Fort or Reflex or Will saves by 5. Basically a lesser version of Shadows Upon You.
    I'm still skeptical about their DPS output but you can read HERE for some more info.

    Of course there are many other options for DPS builds out there like Barbarian, Fighter, Swashbuckler and more, but I do not include these builds here because of their lack of viable Debuffs and their lower sustained DPS (twitching excluded). Everyone is free to play whatever they want, I only showcase my theoritical top builds in terms of speed and increased group safety.

    So that would be it, I welcome all comments, criticism and feedback. Let me know what you think and I hope our friends in Ghallanda who are still raiding and running R10 might actually find some use out of this.
    Last edited by Phil7; 08-25-2017 at 01:42 PM.

  2. #2
    Community Member Phil7's Avatar
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    I would like to mention a few things about PRR and flat increase in incoming/dealt damage.
    First of all the increase in incoming/dealt damage (Rebuke Foe, Vulnerability, Jade Strike) is superior to PRR/MRR debuffing.
    No matter what the case is or what defensive stats the boss has, the increase in incoming/dealt damage will always be the same. Be it +10%, +20%, +25% it doesn't matter, it doesn't change.

    Now the PRR/MRR has -just like with players- a diminishing return. But there is a sweet spot.
    The sweet spot is the highest possible increase in outgoing damage through PRR/MRR debuffing. The sweet spot=the highest Debuff value we can achieve. It is the maximum value of PRR/MRR that we want a boss to have.

    If our max debuff potential is -83 PRR then we want the boss to have no more than 83 PRR. If the boss has more than 83 PRR in this case, then our debuffing is less effective. If the boss has less than 83 PRR then it's even better for us. We are already dealing more damage to him without debuffing.

    Let me show you some examples:
    A) boss has 0 PRR, debuff potential is -55 PRR. Our debuffing is basically "wasted" and we gain 0 increase in DPS. But we are already dealing 100% physical damage to the boss which is fine.

    B) boss has 30 PRR, debuff potential is -75 PRR. We gain a 23.08% increase in DPS and the boss is left with 0 PRR. Group DPS is the same as in Example A

    C) boss has 50 PRR, debuff potential is -50 PRR. We gain a ~33,33% increase in DPS and the boss is left with 0 PRR. Group DPS is the same as in Example A & B.

    D) boss has 100 PRR (=50% less damage taken). Our debuff potential is -50 PRR. (50 PRR=33,33% less damage taken)
    After debuffing the boss is left with 50 PRR (=33,33% less dmg taken). That means by removing 50 PRR in this case we only gain a 16,67% increase in DPS. Whereas in Example C we gained a 33,33% increase in DPS by also removing 50 PRR.

    The diminishing return of the boss' PRR is affecting our debuffing. The more PRR the boss has exceeding our debuffing potential, the less effective our debuffing is. This is why diminishing return is a PITA and flat damage increase/reduction is far superior.

    A lot of mobs don't even have PRR and some bosses too and those who do might not even have more than 30. To maximize PRR/MRR debuffing on boss fights we need values from SSG or someone who has them.
    Last edited by Phil7; 07-20-2017 at 03:48 PM.

  3. #3
    Community Member Phil7's Avatar
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    Small update on the numbers:
    With -75 PRR on a theoritical 75 PRR boss and with Jade Strike, Rebuke Foe and Crusade this should result into a 43% + 10% +25% = 78% EXTRA DAMAGE on bosses along with a +10% party DPS from Crusade.
    This is sick! I would like to see how long boss fights on R10 can last with such a party composition.

    I don't add Crusade to the equation, because 10% extra player DPS does not translate to +10% damage against a boss. Every boss has a defensive value of PRR, MRR etc. and each player has a different DPS score.

    edit: including Ooze Flask from Mechanic, a class which I already include in my theoritical group composition we can achieve a -83 PRR. This should add around 2% more damage for ~+80% extra damage.
    Last edited by Phil7; 07-23-2017 at 10:05 AM.

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    I really like some of the theory crafting you're doing in this thread. There does seem to be a lot of options for potential debuff stacking that I haven't seen taken seriously in the past. Would need to have an organized group/guild to really take full advantage of it, but could end up being extremely strong if done correctly.

    The damage buffing (-PRR/Vulnerability) has obvious value, but I'm more interested in seeing how effective debuffing damage via purification/etc. would have a significant effect at higher levels of reaper. Overall really interesting, but would love to see some tests of how it plays out in practice.

  5. #5
    The Hatchery
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    You may want to check on the PRR debuffs, iirc PRR cannot go negative and mobs do not have PRR unless specifically given it (e.g. devils in Curse the Sky)

    Seeing that damage debuffs apply BEFORE dungeon and other scaling is a big find though, When the servers go back up I can experiment with a few of the wiz/sorc spells that lower stats

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    awesome thread, not much to add at the moment but thought I'd give you some props.

  7. #7
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    So, mob damage DOES scale with their stats (which is how it should be, but you can never know with DDO.)

    Wiz/Sorc has Ray of Enfeeblement, Wave of Exhaustion, and Crushing Despair are pretty good options for lowering damage. There's more, but on my Sorc I didn't want to swap out anything else. Stacking all of those is -9 average to damage; in r5 Lords of Dust I was able to reduce the damage of a champion by 40%ish (from 110 a hit to 60 or so.)

    Other options of Waves of Fatigue (another -1 if it stacks with Exhaustion, didn't test that) and Symbol of Weakness (-5 average.) Also, Solid Fog (-2.)

    Cleric/FvS has Symbol of Weakness (-5 average,) and Prayer (-1) as far as stuff in their spellbook is concerned.

    Stat damage (like from Weakening weapons) is scaled down similarly to normal damage, but this doesn't apply to the spells, because they don't directly lower stats, they apply an effect that has a fixed effect. This is not the case for Contagion and Poison spells, which will get scaled down to zero stat damage, so unfortunately (aside from Contagion's Blinding disease) these are still pretty worthless.

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    Thank you for starting this thread. I've been wondering about this too and was tempted to start one just like it.

    Bottom line question : under what circumstances is it actually meaningful to debuff bosses? (implied "as opposed to just dpsing them")

    I'd like to add in a couple more debuffs a monk can bring. In addition to knock on the sky and jade strike that you've already mentioned, a light monk can also do The Gathering Storm and The Raging Sea.

    So if 5 stacks of Knock on the Sky are built up and maintained, along with Gathering Storm & Raging Sea, that's a total of 15% less attacks, that hit 15% less often, for 20% less damage if they do hit.

    My back of the napkin math says that's 0.8 x 0.85 x 0.85 = 0.58 which is a whopping greater than 40% damage reduction. That seems like a lot to me. In any other game that'd be a game changer. The question is, is it in DDO, anywhere?

    Surely (he says hopefully) there must be *some* circumstances where the "nothing except dps matters" modus operandi of this game doesn't apply and this would be a solid tactical choice,..... isn't there? Please tell me there are.....R10 boss fights? Maybe?

    Edit: Pie in the sky unicorns & rainbows fantasy dream world with me for just a moment. Imagine if debuffing was a thing! Imagine if roles actually mattered and groups doing challenging content desired tanks, healers, trappers, and..... debuffers! How cool would that be? How much of an awesome game would that make it? Ok, ok, enough of that now. Back to your regularly scheduled program....
    Last edited by Gargoyle69; 07-20-2017 at 04:44 AM.

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    Community Member Tlorrd's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Phil7 View Post
    And Shadows Upon You: I don't remember if this works on bosses
    Shadows upon you does work against bosses. When I play cleric ... I'll drop Shadows Upon You on the boss and instantly in a group or with Wiz PL it'll stack to -12 debuff. Then drop a symbol of pain and then bestow curse to get -20 to saves. Thus damage spells or anything that requires a save is much much more possible to land or do the full extent of damage ... Sun Bolt, Divine Wrath, Energy Burst, etc.

    Quote Originally Posted by Phil7 View Post
    Small update on the numbers:
    With -75 PRR on a theoritical 75 PRR boss and with Jade Strike, Rebuke Foe and Crusade this should result into a 43% + 10% +25% = 78% EXTRA DAMAGE on bosses along with a +10% party DPS from Crusade.
    This is sick!
    Also don't forget Shadow Mastery from Shadow Dancer (T6 core). On a vorpal mobs get 5% vulnerability to physical damage and have the immunity to sneak attack removed. Mechanics (and perfect single weapon fighting) vorpal on 19-20. This procs quite a bit and can add to the damage output. I like to couple this with Crusade.

    I've tried to find a way to fit in something with light spell damage on my mech to then have Rebuke Foe also ... But I think you'd need the T3 or T4 of ES warlock to have light damage apply to attacks and thus build up righteous fervor which takes out Expert Builder ... not ideal, unless you had 6 ranger and went with sniper shot.

    But Shadow mastery with Crusade and TF Vulnerabiltiy (I don't have Vacuum) ... that's 35% increase in damage (roughly).

    Also Ooze flask from Mech tree can give -8 PRR to mobs ... while not super ... can add to a group with all the other PRR debuffs you mentioned.

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    Hero JOTMON's Avatar
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    and now that you have posted this.. Dev's will use it to screw those debuffs and make bosses immune since that is their typical approach to boss debuffs.
    Jotmon -
    Guild: Degenerate Matter - 200
    Argo-Jotmon(HC 28/42,EC 26/36,IC 17/15,RC 14/30), Jotlock(HC 38/42,EC 36/36,IC 15/15, RC 0/30)..
    and several once viable raiding alts dumped into the packmule stables..

    Update 24: Champions... "whew, it's ok, it's only a red name" .. sad day when trash spawn Champions and their one-shot ignore fort attacks instill more party fear than the Red named bosses.
    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    Too bad I 'purchased' maximum character slots for my account, SSG has now chosen to cater the giveaway perks to benefit multiple freebie accounts instead of the paying customers.

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    Community Member Tlorrd's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JOTMON View Post
    and now that you have posted this.. Dev's will use it to screw those debuffs and make bosses immune since that is their typical approach to boss debuffs.
    oh no ... the game will change again! ... the world will still turn. It's ok.

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    Hero JOTMON's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tlorrd View Post
    oh no ... the game will change again! ... the world will still turn. It's ok.
    Would prefer to see dev's improve the game by making boss debuffs viable.

    There should be a whole subset of boss debuffs and debuff spells usable by player to mitigate boss damage and defences.
    bring back diversified class teamwork to optimally deal with bosses instead of the current mindset of.. just bring mass brute DPS..
    Jotmon -
    Guild: Degenerate Matter - 200
    Argo-Jotmon(HC 28/42,EC 26/36,IC 17/15,RC 14/30), Jotlock(HC 38/42,EC 36/36,IC 15/15, RC 0/30)..
    and several once viable raiding alts dumped into the packmule stables..

    Update 24: Champions... "whew, it's ok, it's only a red name" .. sad day when trash spawn Champions and their one-shot ignore fort attacks instill more party fear than the Red named bosses.
    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    Too bad I 'purchased' maximum character slots for my account, SSG has now chosen to cater the giveaway perks to benefit multiple freebie accounts instead of the paying customers.

  13. #13
    Community Member Tlorrd's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JOTMON View Post
    Would prefer to see dev's improve the game by making boss debuffs viable.

    There should be a whole subset of boss debuffs and debuff spells usable by player to mitigate boss damage and defences.
    bring back diversified class teamwork to optimally deal with bosses instead of the current mindset of.. just bring mass brute DPS..
    This whole thread has a whole list of what you're asking for ... People just need to work as a team to stack these.

  14. #14
    Community Member Phil7's Avatar
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    Big thanks to everyone appreciated.

    Quote Originally Posted by Qezuzu View Post
    You may want to check on the PRR debuffs, iirc PRR cannot go negative and mobs do not have PRR unless specifically given it (e.g. devils in Curse the Sky)

    Seeing that damage debuffs apply BEFORE dungeon and other scaling is a big find though, When the servers go back up I can experiment with a few of the wiz/sorc spells that lower stats
    Ty for checking that Qezuzu that's good to know. I'm currently on an Arti life so I can't test wizards/sorcs. Only Warlocks at cap. My next 2 Wizard lives will be Slarden's Wraith build as melee so forget it

  15. #15
    Community Member Phil7's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gargoyle69 View Post
    Bottom line question : under what circumstances is it actually meaningful to debuff bosses? (implied "as opposed to just dpsing them")
    Example A: if a group (experienced players) runs Black & Blue in R1 then a Debuffer would actually slow down the group through a decrease in overall DPS. That is because in R1 tanks, healers and CC casters are not necessary. Melees can just Dire Charge and aoe burst and ranged can ice.

    Example B: group runs Black & Blue in R10 and they need a tank, because otherwise boss fights will wipe. The tank needs a healer to keep him alive. The group also needs a CC caster to constantly render the mobs helpless. The group has just lost a huge amount of overall DPS, but it is necessary to complete the quest. Ok the healer might not be necessary, but that would require huge concentration from the caster and the tank.

    In case A the debuffer actually "hurts the group DPS", because Warlock boss DPS is not that great and could be replaced by a Tempest/Mechanic etc.
    In case B the debuffer offers a substantial theoritical increase in the group's DPS at a minimal loss of his personal DPS. He also helps the tank through boss damage-debuff while in case A there is no tank to help.

    My perception of most games is "DPS, DPS, DPS". Everything from DDO to WOW to GW2 focuses on maximizing your DPS. You can not change that.
    When you become better in a game and you can start sacrificing survivability in favor of DPS and surviving through game-mechanics, then you also start to cheese and speed run. Having always been a power gamer in most games and favoring fotm builds and DPS my answer to your question would be: Debuff only when you need it to survive and when it doesn't kill your DPS. And of course use it when it boosts your group's overall DPS

    Quote Originally Posted by Gargoyle69 View Post
    Surely (he says hopefully) there must be *some* circumstances where the "nothing except dps matters" modus operandi of this game doesn't apply and this would be a solid tactical choice,..... isn't there? Please tell me there are.....R10 boss fights? Maybe?
    Yes R10 runs that is correct this is what my thread focuses on. Now I mentioned cheesing and speed running. Right now we have 3 versions of R10 boss fightning.
    1) charm thrash and let them kill the boss
    2) range and park in a safe spot
    3) balanced group with tank healer etc.

    Number 3 is fine and I am trying to improve the group compositions, Number 2 will never be fixed because ranged>mob AI and Number 3 is broken in high skulls and needs to be changed. Changed how? By nerfing it out of orbit? NO!

    Instead as Morroiel has suggested in the forums, give bosses an "Anti-Charm aura" which prevents trash in boss fights from being charmed. And perhaps slightly reduce trash mob damage against other trash mobs.
    This means that charm will still be strong in reaper (good), charmers will take wayyyyyyyyyyyyyy longer to kill bosses when soloing (good, stops cheesing) and balanced groups will be able to compete in dungeon speed. This is the best suggestion I have read so far about charming in reaper, I hope they listen to Morroiel more he really knows what he says.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gargoyle69 View Post
    Edit: Pie in the sky unicorns & rainbows fantasy dream world with me for just a moment. Imagine if debuffing was a thing! Imagine if roles actually mattered and groups doing challenging content desired tanks, healers, trappers, and..... debuffers! How cool would that be? How much of an awesome game would that make it? Ok, ok, enough of that now. Back to your regularly scheduled program....
    Yes the things you mentioned are already a thing in R10 and so can be debuffers.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gargoyle69 View Post
    I'd like to add in a couple more debuffs a monk can bring. In addition to knock on the sky and jade strike that you've already mentioned, a light monk can also do The Gathering Storm and The Raging Sea.
    So if 5 stacks of Knock on the Sky are built up and maintained, along with Gathering Storm & Raging Sea, that's a total of 15% less attacks, that hit 15% less often, for 20% less damage if they do hit.
    Ty for contributing, I have also thought of atk speed/slow debuffs (LGS Salt), but most of them tend to not work against bosses. Most likely Raging Sea too. Reducing boss attack/movement speed is a bit overpowered imo.
    Last edited by Phil7; 07-20-2017 at 02:10 PM.

  16. #16
    Community Member Phil7's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tlorrd View Post
    Shadows upon you does work against bosses. When I play cleric ... I'll drop Shadows Upon You on the boss and instantly in a group or with Wiz PL it'll stack to -12 debuff. Then drop a symbol of pain and then bestow curse to get -20 to saves. Thus damage spells or anything that requires a save is much much more possible to land or do the full extent of damage ... Sun Bolt, Divine Wrath, Energy Burst, etc.
    Exactly, but for me to bother with such spells we first need SSG to make caster dps meaningful in high skulls.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tlorrd View Post
    Also don't forget Shadow Mastery from Shadow Dancer (T6 core). On a vorpal mobs get 5% vulnerability to physical damage and have the immunity to sneak attack removed. Mechanics (and perfect single weapon fighting) vorpal on 19-20. This procs quite a bit and can add to the damage output. I like to couple this with Crusade.
    Yes I thought of Shadow Mastery, but I did not bother posting it for a simple reason. +5% DPS from a Mechanic in SD for your 3 DPSers in the group with a completely joke Destiny compared to LD versus a Mechanic in LD Blitzing is most likely a much lower overall group DPS. I'm sorry but it's just like Fatesinger... one or two great abilities and the rest is junk. In the end resulting in less DPS for your group

    SSG needs to revamp the Destinies, but not make them a DPS fest. Instead they need to give them roles like they have in LOTRO. Make Fatesinger a great party buffer, give SD and Grandmaster of Flowers unique stacking debuffs, usable only as a monk or rogue/mechanic, give druids benefits for playing in Primal Avatar etc. Otherwise people will just find the highest dps and the rest will burn.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tlorrd View Post
    But Shadow mastery with Crusade and TF Vulnerabiltiy (I don't have Vacuum) ... that's 35% increase in damage (roughly).
    Not exactly, Crusade is not always a +10% increase in DPS. It varies from mob to mob
    edit: just saw your "roughly"

    Quote Originally Posted by Tlorrd View Post
    Also Ooze flask from Mech tree can give -8 PRR to mobs ... while not super ... can add to a group with all the other PRR debuffs you mentioned.
    AMAZING!! thanks for pointing this out I totaly forgot about this
    Last edited by Phil7; 07-20-2017 at 02:36 PM.

  17. #17
    The Hatchery
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    Assassin enhancement allows for up to -15 melee power on a mob.

  18. #18
    Community Member Phil7's Avatar
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    updated 2nd post regarding PRR/MRR and flat damage increase.

  19. #19
    Community Member Phil7's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Qezuzu View Post
    Assassin enhancement allows for up to -15 melee power on a mob.
    This is great but there is a small problem... Weakening Strikes works only against enemies marked with "Assassin's Mark."
    Assassin's Mark is applied by Poison Strikes and all 3 Poison Strikes require a melee weapon. This means TA, Assassin or a melee build with at least 4 rogue levels.

    I'm not aware of a melee rogue-splashed build that is worth bothering with at endgame. TA is a flavor build and Assassin is very strong, but has a problem in boss fights. He gains a huge boost to his damage against a single enemy, but most of it comes from Measure the Foe which requires you to stealth - wait 1 second - pop out of stealth. Or wait 5 seconds while in Stealth to gain max stacks (+30 MP) for 10 seconds. And after 10 seconds repeat...
    Unless you can attack and stay in Stealth somehow, but still you must exit Stealth to gain the buff from Measure the Foe.

    If they change Measure the Foe to not require Stealth then imo Assassin can be one of the best single target sustained DPS classes in the game. Equal to and perhaps stronger than Tempest. They used to be the best single target melee dps (when not having aggro) years ago, but then other classes got buffed, the Assassin buff was poor and they lagged behind.

    So atm it's Mechanic who can't use Poison Strikes anyway so why bother. Let's hope SSG fixes Measure the Foe someday. But still if someone happens to play and love Assassins and wants to do end game high-reaper, then by all means use Weakening Strikes it's a great debuff.

    Oh and my math on Weakening Strikes shows (10 + Rogue Level/2)=(10 + 20/2)= 20 Melee Power Debuff

  20. #20
    The Hatchery
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    Quote Originally Posted by Phil7 View Post
    This is great but there is a small problem... Weakening Strikes works only against enemies marked with "Assassin's Mark."
    Assassin's Mark is applied by Poison Strikes and all 3 Poison Strikes require a melee weapon. This means TA, Assassin or a melee build with at least 4 rogue levels.

    I'm not aware of a melee rogue-splashed build that is worth bothering with at endgame. TA is a flavor build and Assassin is very strong, but has a problem in boss fights. He gains a huge boost to his damage against a single enemy, but most of it comes from Measure the Foe which requires you to stealth - wait 1 second - pop out of stealth. Or wait 5 seconds while in Stealth to gain max stacks (+30 MP) for 10 seconds. And after 10 seconds repeat...
    Unless you can attack and stay in Stealth somehow, but still you must exit Stealth to gain the buff from Measure the Foe.

    If they change Measure the Foe to not require Stealth then imo Assassin can be one of the best single target sustained DPS classes in the game. Equal to and perhaps stronger than Tempest. They used to be the best single target melee dps (when not having aggro) years ago, but then other classes got buffed, the Assassin buff was poor and they lagged behind.

    So atm it's Mechanic who can't use Poison Strikes anyway so why bother. Let's hope SSG fixes Measure the Foe someday. But still if someone happens to play and love Assassins and wants to do end game high-reaper, then by all means use Weakening Strikes it's a great debuff.

    Oh and my math on Weakening Strikes shows (10 + Rogue Level/2)=(10 + 20/2)= 20 Melee Power Debuff
    Just noting another source of debuff that I never would have considered before remembering just how much damage -20% represents on a high-skull red name ( if -20 MP actually translates to -20% damage, that is.) And melee rogues have their problems in reaper but I wouldn't consider them "not worth bothering with," Acrobat has the capability to boost to 100% dodge with good uptime, and Assassin has the best insta-kill ability of any melee class. Plus, iirc sneak attack is not scaled down as much as other damage, so they have very strong single-target DPS regardless of MTF's annoying behavior.

    And if people actually realize "hey, debuffing bosses is actually really helpful" then a -20 MP is a real asset they have over something like Tempest, which really only offers DPS to the party.

    I mean, I harp on them a lot and want them to improve in reaper but that's mainly because they can't be played in reaper the way I'm used to (extensive use of sneaking.)

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