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  1. #1
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    Default XP Report and Potential Character Contribution Bias

    This is intended to be a brainstorming topic.

    From memory, I believe the quest XP report displays character names, along with a count, in 3 places:

    - number of kills
    - number of breakables smashed
    - number of deaths

    Do you think that these statistics adequately summarize a player/character's contribution to (or in the case of the last one perhaps "burden on") the party and quest?

    Do you think that the XP report should in some way be indicative of a player/character's contribution to the effort?

    If your answers were no and yes, respectively, what would you add to, remove from, or otherwise change about the XP report to make it more comprehensive?

  2. #2

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    I believe the purpose of kill count and breakables smashed is to indicate the threshold that will give you "conquest" and "ransack".
    It's not intended to be a measure of "worth" to the party.
    Worth always will be a value call that individuals will have to make for themselves.
    There is no quantitative statistic that can accurately express the quality of "worth" to a party so IMO leave it as it is.
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  3. #3
    Community Member Rys's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SuperNiCd View Post
    This is intended to be a brainstorming topic.

    From memory, I believe the quest XP report displays character names, along with a count, in 3 places:

    - number of kills
    - number of breakables smashed
    - number of deaths

    Do you think that these statistics adequately summarize a player/character's contribution to (or in the case of the last one perhaps "burden on") the party and quest?
    No, no and no. The player contributes as long as everyone has fun. If the player has the most kills but acts like a jerk, he is indeed a burden to my party.

  4. #4
    Community Member HastyPudding's Avatar
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    What if the conquest/ransack/ingenious statistics were singular and didn't name names? These statistics do not show how much healing has been done, how much crowd control has been done, how much buffing/debuffing has been done, how much actual damage was done (not just mobs killed), how much damage has been mitigated, etc.

  5. #5
    Bounty Hunter slarden's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SuperNiCd View Post
    This is intended to be a brainstorming topic.

    From memory, I believe the quest XP report displays character names, along with a count, in 3 places:

    - number of kills
    - number of breakables smashed
    - number of deaths

    Do you think that these statistics adequately summarize a player/character's contribution to (or in the case of the last one perhaps "burden on") the party and quest?

    Do you think that the XP report should in some way be indicative of a player/character's contribution to the effort?

    If your answers were no and yes, respectively, what would you add to, remove from, or otherwise change about the XP report to make it more comprehensive?
    kill count leader might be someone obsessed with leading kill count at the expense of teamwork. Breakable leader might be a piker wanting to max xp. Number of deaths is usually the least experienced player who already receives a penalty for dying.

    No those stats don't adequately summarize a player's contribution to the quest or to group fun. They shouldn't be used to change individual xp as such an incentive would lead to in-party competition for xp rather than teamwork. The game should remain PVE as in players vs. environment
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  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by slarden View Post
    No those stats don't adequately summarize a player's contribution to the quest or to group fun. They shouldn't be used to change individual xp as such an incentive would lead to in-party competition for xp rather than teamwork. The game should remain PVE as in players vs. environment
    Agree 100%. To be clear though, I am in no way proposing that. Actually I am not proposing anything, really.

    What I am pondering is why some activities are counted and broken out by character, and other activities that could possibly be counted or measured on a per character basis, and contributed equally or more to quest and XP success, are not.

  7. #7
    Founder & Hero cdbd3rd's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rys View Post
    No, no and no. The player contributes as long as everyone has fun. If the player has the most kills but acts like a jerk, he is indeed a burden to my party.
    That.

    Quote Originally Posted by HastyPudding View Post
    What if the conquest/ransack/ingenious statistics were singular and didn't name names? These statistics do not show how much healing has been done, how much crowd control has been done, how much buffing/debuffing has been done, how much actual damage was done (not just mobs killed), how much damage has been mitigated, etc.
    The most important stat has no way to be translated to a statistic. Just being a "party member" (or leader) who promotes teamwork and makes the quest experience a pleasure by friendly/informative chat, quality organizational skills, or what have you. As Rys said, someone who has helped everyone have fun.

    To that end, I think NOT having names on the party XP report would be a good thing.
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  8. #8
    Community Member Qhualor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SuperNiCd View Post
    Do you think that these statistics adequately summarize a player/character's contribution to (or in the case of the last one perhaps "burden on") the party and quest?
    no. it doesn't show the guy that stands back and heals, focuses on CC, the guy that prefers to let "tanks" go first before engaging fights, the ranged build that kills mobs from a distance before the front line melee gets to it, the guys that fall behind a zerger and other things. you can easily tell who is contributing to the group and who isn't or how much they contribute by watching what other players are doing.

    Quote Originally Posted by SuperNiCd View Post
    Do you think that the XP report should in some way be indicative of a player/character's contribution to the effort?
    no. see above, but also players can be considered good contributors to a group if they are being better team players and utilizing smart play.

    Quote Originally Posted by SuperNiCd View Post
    If your answers were no and yes, respectively, what would you add to, remove from, or otherwise change about the XP report to make it more comprehensive?
    remove individual contributions because it has absolutely no bearing on contribution. only keep party contribution because you may want that for ransack, ingenious, conquest.
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  9. #9
    Community Member glmfw1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SuperNiCd View Post
    This is intended to be a brainstorming topic.

    From memory, I believe the quest XP report displays character names, along with a count, in 3 places:

    - number of kills
    - number of breakables smashed
    - number of deaths

    Do you think that these statistics adequately summarize a player/character's contribution to (or in the case of the last one perhaps "burden on") the party and quest?

    Do you think that the XP report should in some way be indicative of a player/character's contribution to the effort?
    No... they don't summarise contribution, but they do come in useful for comparative purposes:
    Number of kills for the people with high DPS gives them an idea of how effective their tactics were relative to others with high DPS. It can then be used as a learning tool for investigation and planning character development and party tactics.
    Number of breakables per person in a party who work together regularly can indicate whose method was better. Discussion can result in making quests more efficient (e.g. no need for X to break things if Y is following, as Y can do them all in passing in less time, so X can move ahead and assist Z).
    Number of deaths can be useful in highlighting build/equipment issues. e.g. X died 20 times, the rest died zero times while running through the Caves of Acid and Lightning Death... ah... X has no Acid or Lightning Resistance and everyone else does. Sometimes death is a tactic. As a Cleric, sometimes I was on Rez duty only... i.e. we know people will die in fight X, so save SP and rez when they die, rather then try to heal and have to rez anyway. Other times it was the Clerics who died, with 2 doing mutual rezzes, while keeping the rest of the party alive, as self healing for the combatants was at the expense of DPS.

    The report lists the easily quantifiable things. Traps disabled also gets listed as number of traps directly impacts XP, but locks opened doesn't. Contribution is about more than the easy measurables. Overall party success depends on the other factors, but as things can be achieved by different means, tracking all the variables would be very difficult. Sometimes a party leader who does nothing meaningful in game terms, but is there and coordinates the tactics of everyone else by watching what is going on has done nothing that the game can measure, but has done everything that ensured success: measurable contribution=zero, actual contribution=invaluable. Anything that was done to try to get the report to be more meaningful would miss out on some factors, and therefore give a skewed result.
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  10. #10
    Bwest Fwiends Memnir's Avatar
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    I've found those who obsess over the XP report as a measure of personal "success" to be kinda funny for nearly as long as the game has been around. I remember a rollicking couple of threads about it back in the closed beta forums before launch, and a few in the early years of the game. I've been an advocate of at least removing names from the XP screen for about that long as well. In a game that (supposedly) emphasizes grouping - it's always seemed odd to me that it had such a me/me/me focus on the XP report.

    But, after 10+ years - I've kinda given up on that kind of thing actually changing. Those who use it as an excuse to boast are still funny, though.
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  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by SuperNiCd View Post
    Agree 100%. To be clear though, I am in no way proposing that. Actually I am not proposing anything, really.

    What I am pondering is why some activities are counted and broken out by character, and other activities that could possibly be counted or measured on a per character basis, and contributed equally or more to quest and XP success, are not.
    Actually, all of the activities in that section of the report list names; traps disabled, secret doors found and re-entries also list who did how many. The reason other things aren't listed is simply because other things don't give bonuses to xp. It is after all an xp report.

    Personally I think it would be better if it didn't list names and didn't even show the deaths of others, as that's a personal bonus now (not sure if no re-entries is a personal or group bonus these days).

    If we can't tell if someone isn't contributing simply by playing with them, the game really doesn't need to give us a way to find dissatisfaction with each other.

  12. #12
    Barbarbarian Sam-u-r-eye's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SuperNiCd View Post
    Do you think that the XP report should in some way be indicative of a player/character's contribution to the effort?
    Absolutely.
    If you don't like it then don't look at it.
    I should be free to judge you as to your party contributions.
    I make a genuine effort to help other party members improve and this is a good thing.
    It also tells me if someone is essentially piking. I absolutely, totally, and genuinely despise these evil miscreants who just follow the party and do nothing.

    Quote Originally Posted by SuperNiCd View Post
    Do you think that these statistics adequately summarize a player/character's contribution to (or in the case of the last one perhaps "burden on") the party and quest?
    Adequately? No.
    I'd also like a "dps-done" counter.
    I'd also like a "healing-done" counter.
    I'd also like a "abilities-activated per quest" counter. (This shows how active the player is.)

    Quote Originally Posted by SuperNiCd View Post
    If your answers were no and yes, respectively, what would you add to, remove from, or otherwise change about the XP report to make it more comprehensive?
    Cheers!

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    If you take the time to straw-man me by saying I'm not a social player, and I don't let some people pike, then you're out of your mind.
    There's a time and a place for things but players

    BENEFIT FROM INFORMATION.

    What a player DOES with that information is THEIR responsibility.
    If you think your character is god's gift to the universe, but you die 2x as much as the next person, get no kills, and do no dps then probably you should rethink your ego.

    Objective metrics are lovely.
    Sure you can instakill a mob or get a last hit.
    Kills are objective, but DPS done would be helpful to.
    On average a person recieves the amount of kills they put out in dps unless someone is trolling them. (I.e., me following my melee buddy pol around and fingering the mobs when they're at 10% hp.)
    Without new players DDO will go the way of the dodo.
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  13. #13
    Founder salmag's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Memnir View Post
    I've found those who obsess over the XP report as a measure of personal "success" to be kinda funny for nearly as long as the game has been around. I remember a rollicking couple of threads about it back in the closed beta forums before launch, and a few in the early years of the game. I've been an advocate of at least removing names from the XP screen for about that long as well. In a game that (supposedly) emphasizes grouping - it's always seemed odd to me that it had such a me/me/me focus on the XP report.

    But, after 10+ years - I've kinda given up on that kind of thing actually changing. Those who use it as an excuse to boast are still funny, though.
    I agree with this 100%.

    Remove names from the all the XP counters.

    The focus should be on having fun and completing the quest, not who leads whom in categories.
    Way back when (when the games first came out), my first guild would compete to try to lead in breakables.

    The main object of this, or any game for that matter, is to have fun first.
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  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sam-u-r-eye View Post
    Absolutely.
    If you don't like it then don't look at it.
    I should be free to judge you as to your party contributions.
    I make a genuine effort to help other party members improve and this is a good thing.
    It also tells me if someone is essentially piking. I absolutely, totally, and genuinely despise these evil miscreants who just follow the party and do nothing.
    I find my eyeballs do well enough for that.

    Adequately? No.
    I'd also like a "dps-done" counter.
    I'd also like a "healing-done" counter.
    I'd also like a "abilities-activated per quest" counter. (This shows how active the player is.)
    Eyeballs again, with a side order of brain.

    As I said before, if you need a breakdown to tell if someone's level of contribution is up to snuff, it's up to snuff. All the numbers in the xp report do is give those looking for a reason to be unsatisfied a place to try to find what their eyes and brain can't.

    Frankly, I find the game providing an aid for customers to find other customers not up to their standards foolish as a concept. the game is better off IMO if we have less reasons to not want to play with each other, so adding more seems counter productive.

  15. #15
    Community Member Mr_Helmet's Avatar
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    If you're not first, you're last.

    If you don't believe that you're a worthless commie.

  16. #16
    Community Member goodspeed's Avatar
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    Theirs only one thing to measure all the dps packages in a fight. DPS meter in a 3rd party setting. Always used one in raids in the other mmo's.
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  17. #17
    Community Member Fallout47's Avatar
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    [QUOTE=slarden;5967482]kill count leader might be someone obsessed with leading kill count at the expense of teamwork.

    Exactly. In higher skull reaper, there are those who have discovered that it's a team effort. Contribute to the success of the mission as a whole or just stay in lower skulls or elite. Teams succeed together and need no one superstar.
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  18. #18
    Community Member Lonnbeimnech's Avatar
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    So whats the plan? We are going to replace kill count and breakables with a fun-meter?

  19. #19
    Community Member Ralmeth's Avatar
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    No and no. If you're paying attention, you know who is contributing and who is not.
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  20. #20
    Barbarbarian Sam-u-r-eye's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lonnbeimnech View Post
    So whats the plan? We are going to replace kill count and breakables with a fun-meter?
    +1 rofl

    and comrades will vote for who is fun and who isn't
    Without new players DDO will go the way of the dodo.
    r10 @ 30 stuff, Sorc Build Guide, Ghallanda

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