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  1. #141

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ulfo View Post
    Waste feat slot... exactly was I say before. So? 8)



    If you not have slot to put DEX in cc gear, you just did it wrong. :P

    Of course DEX clearly same universal as CON! Any build can use additional HP, any build can use additional protection from AC and reflex, non-any build use Harper or waste feat slot for ins reflexes. It's simple. 8)
    I find this no more compelling than the last time you asserted it. DEX is just not as universal as CON. It's just not.

    And again, to reiterate, you might feel that it should be universal, and you might even be right. But you are not everybody. The demand values are meant to describe what players care about, not prescribe what they should care about. Most players don't see DEX as being as universal as CON, therefore it is not, by definition.

    Also, I might add that you are pretty much the only person I've ever seen recommend not taking Insightful Reflexes on an Int build.

    Quote Originally Posted by Draeqo View Post
    That is fine, but I still think devotion is overrated and spellsight underrated in that overview.

    Spellpower determines the amount of DPS for many builds. Every little bit counts.
    Spellcraft/spellsight is a class skill for Artificers, Bards, Clerics, Druids, Favored Souls, Sorcerers, Warlocks, and Wizards. And Arcane Archers can use it too, that means many Rangers and Repeater Rogues. That is 8 to 10 out of 14.

    Sure Devotion is a must have for healers but the have to be able to cast healing spells, without scrolls. So Clerics, Druids, Favored Souls, Paladins and Rangers. That is 5 out of 14.
    A few races have innate healing, like Halfling or Aasimar. We are still left with more than half of the playerbase who either use repair, are undead or need to use scroll healing.

    Of course in the epics we have a few more options, like Cocoon.
    I just never thought of using devotion (just for Cocoon) when in Epics as a Wizard, Sorcerer, Arcane Archer or Warlock. But then all of those had Potency + Spellsight.
    Perhaps I should
    Yes, those four caster classes want spellsight more than devotion, but not everyone sticks to those four classes. For example, out of my five mains, 4 out of 5 consider devotion a hard requirement -- sacrificing other important things to fit it in if necessary -- while only 2 out of 5 care at all about spellsight, and both would be willing to drop spellsight if it interfered with a high priority effect. If you include my challenge farmers (two each of heroic and epic), add another 2 of 4 who require devotion while only 1 of 4 uses spellcraft at all, and wouldn't shed a tear if it got dropped to fit in better things. (Epic Challenges are equivalent to Epic Normal.)

    I'm not saying my stable of characters is universal -- far from it -- but then again neither is yours.

  2. #142
    Community Member Draeqo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ulfo View Post
    Waste feat slot... exactly was I say before. So? 8)

    If you not have slot to put DEX in cc gear, you just did it wrong. :P

    Of course DEX clearly same universal as CON! Any build can use additional HP, any build can use additional protection from AC and reflex, non-any build use Harper or waste feat slot for ins reflexes. It's simple. 8)
    I'm sorry but I have to disagree. It not waste of a feat, it is main part of build: everything to INT (+CON). Works great. INT for reflex save, INT needed for skills, especially Rogue skills, INT to hit and damage (Harper), INT for SP and INT for Spellcraft/spellpower, INT for DC-es for wizard spells, etc.
    If not for that feat then you would need to ALSO be maxing DEX to get a reasonable save, otherwise why bother with Evasion ?!
    Wiz/Rogues are very squishy so without great reflexes they are toast.

    That's true for Wizard/Rogue, but similar for any other build that does not use DEX for damage or to hit: how to get around not also having to pump up DEX, when already pumping up main stat (CHA, WIS, INT) and also maxing CON. Standard choice in Wizard builds.

    Another example is a Warlock 18/17 Paladin 2/3. Maxing order is CON & CHA then INT before anything else (which are about half the level of the main three). That Warlock needs INT for Spellpower (easily 20-25% of total; sadly that is not coming from main casting stat, which is CHA in this case). Saves are already great (Pally 3 version at least). Reflex could be better by increasing DEX more, sure, but they already need to focus on 3 stats. The Pally 2 version has 18 Warlock levels, so can be floating and has no issues with balance.

    Or what about an Artificer? Again maxing INT, and again the issue of needing to max INT and CON, so for the cost of just one feat they can avoid having to max DEX as well. Sure many start with OK-ish DEX (as high as their starting CON and INT even), but thereafter only take INT and take Insightful reflexes at some point. See the Artificer builds

    Arcane Archers (often Ranger/Wiz or Ranger/Wiz/Rogue or Ranger/Rogue when Elf) also need high INT, simply for the elemental imbues, which depend on Spellpower for the punch (as with the above examples, it directly determines DPS of main attack). And in case they want to make use of the abilities of their second class or need to be high skilled, they need INT. And when they want to make sure that their paralyzing arrows work, they also need WIS; or use Ranger spells: again WIS. So they max CON, WIS then INT or CON, INT then WIS. It maybe odd to see a Ranger\Rogue dumping DEX, but it really happens. Guess what feat they have chosen..

    IMHO that feat Insightful reflexes is really a no-brainer for heavy INT builds: saves a stat that needs to be maxed and you get a no-fail reflex save.

    Many builds simply can't afford or do not need DEX.

    Say Paladins. They need CON and CHA (main stat), they need STR if they want to be able to do damage and WIS for spells. Guess what stat is their main dump stat? (Hint: it is not INT). For example this Vanguard or Pally/Monks.
    Sure pure fighting Paladins may go the Fighter road and max CON, STR and DEX. They just keep enough WIS to heal themselves.

    And what about Favored Soul or Druid or even Cleric?
    Again and again we see that DEX gets dropped because one simply can't afford to also spend points and gear towards yet another stat.

    It really depends on build. Sure many builds will profit from DEX, perhaps a majority. So they have it as 3rd stat, perhaps even 2nd/1st.
    But certainly not all builds. Many builds simply can't afford to ALSOhave to focus on DEX, next to their 2 or even 3 main stats, when non of those are DEX. So they either have an alternative (like Insightful Reflexes or high saves from other sources) or they simply ignore it and live with bad reflex saves (High CON tank builds, builds that are great healers, Warlocks etc.).

  3. #143
    Community Member Draeqo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EllisDee37 View Post
    I'm not saying my stable of characters is universal -- far from it -- but then again neither is yours.
    That is true

    By the way my next build will be a Halfling Monk Shuriken Thrower, so likely high DEX and definitely carrying a maxed Devotion item.
    Probably like this one: Snipercannon, or perhaps this one The Meteor Shower.

  4. #144
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    Quote Originally Posted by EllisDee37 View Post
    I find this no more compelling than the last time you asserted it. DEX is just not as universal as CON. It's just not.
    Yes, it is our old dispute. I believe, both of us agreed to differ. 8)

    Also, I might add that you are pretty much the only person I've ever seen recommend not taking Insightful Reflexes on an Int build.
    It depends... 8)

    Well... all INT build diverse into 2 main type: with use Harper tree and without Harper tree. I exclude Harper-depends builds because they, obviously, not universal to all player base. All other it's 3 builds: Rogue Mechanics, Arty and Wizards.

    Rogue human feats ( max feat output 7):

    1 Point Blank shot
    2 Precision
    3 Fast reload
    4 IPS ( DEX 19 mandatory )
    5 IC: Ranged
    6 Precise Shot
    7 Rapid Shot

    Ouch... I need 3 more feat to add Weapon Focus: Ranged, Power Critical and Completionist. What... need one more to Ins Reflexes?!
    What from above 7 feat I must dump to put Ins Reflexes? And if not use Harper, I need high DEX anyway just for to-hit bonuses. 8)

    Arty WF/BF ( selfheal, better survivability ) - feat output 11. Ok, here clearly is free slot for Ins Reflexes. But Arty use Medium Armor instead Light mostly because better MRR/PRR, so no Evasion... and Spelltraps usual have Will save, not Reflex ( at least in Underdark, if I remember correct ).

    Wizards... 11/12 feats. 4 Spell Pen + Spell Focus feat, 5-6 Meta feat, Wiz active PL feat, Completionist. Ok, arguable one Meta can be easy dumped for Ins Reflexes. But in current metagame environment wizards hardly survivable without Medium Armor and/or Heavy/Tower shields ( yea, (in)famous Skyvault 8) ), so no Evasion again. Mebbe Shield Mastery +Imp Shield Mastery be better?

    So, mebbe here we have not so no-brain choice as you think? 8)

    PS. Sorry for some derail topic... but it's not my initiative, you see... 8)

  5. #145
    Community Member FuryFlash's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ulfo View Post
    Yes, it is our old dispute. I believe, both of us agreed to differ. 8)



    It depends... 8)

    Well... all INT build diverse into 2 main type: with use Harper tree and without Harper tree. I exclude Harper-depends builds because they, obviously, not universal to all player base. All other it's 3 builds: Rogue Mechanics, Arty and Wizards.

    Rogue human feats ( max feat output 7):

    1 Point Blank shot
    2 Precision
    3 Fast reload
    4 IPS ( DEX 19 mandatory )
    5 IC: Ranged
    6 Precise Shot
    7 Rapid Shot

    Ouch... I need 3 more feat to add Weapon Focus: Ranged, Power Critical and Completionist. What... need one more to Ins Reflexes?!
    What from above 7 feat I must dump to put Ins Reflexes? And if not use Harper, I need high DEX anyway just for to-hit bonuses. 8)

    Arty WF/BF ( selfheal, better survivability ) - feat output 11. Ok, here clearly is free slot for Ins Reflexes. But Arty use Medium Armor instead Light mostly because better MRR/PRR, so no Evasion... and Spelltraps usual have Will save, not Reflex ( at least in Underdark, if I remember correct ).

    Wizards... 11/12 feats. 4 Spell Pen + Spell Focus feat, 5-6 Meta feat, Wiz active PL feat, Completionist. Ok, arguable one Meta can be easy dumped for Ins Reflexes. But in current metagame environment wizards hardly survivable without Medium Armor and/or Heavy/Tower shields ( yea, (in)famous Skyvault 8) ), so no Evasion again. Mebbe Shield Mastery +Imp Shield Mastery be better?

    So, mebbe here we have not so no-brain choice as you think? 8)

    PS. Sorry for some derail topic... but it's not my initiative, you see... 8)
    Just wanted to point out a few things with this argument. For one, excluding Harper-dependant builds makes no sense in an argument about int builds, since most int builds use Harper. Your reasoning that it is not universal to the whole player base is not compelling since Harper can be attained with favour, and most players doing an int build *will* have it. It also doesn't make sense to argue this point when you mention the need to add completionist as an important feat slot later on, something which is hardly universal, especially compared to Harper.

    Secondly, you point out three builds, but two of them can easily (and probably should) fit Insightful Reflexes into their feat list, as you mention. I don't see how this is a convincing argument for how Ins. Ref. is "not a no-brainer" for these builds, when two out of three can easily take it and make good use out of it. Sure, you can play them as non-evasion builds - but you can still use the extra reflex saves either way, while consolidating gear and stats.

    Another thing that I mentioned somewhat already is that your other feats that you list as essential really aren't as important as Insightful Reflexes. WF: Ranged? Power Critical? These are not essential feats. I agree that one build is quite feat-starved otherwise, but it's the only one of the three non-Harper exceptions you've listed that couldn't easily fit in IR.

    I'm sorry, but I really don't find this argument convincing. Not only is Insightful Reflexes very useful on int builds, but most of the time it can be fit into the feats list - as such, most players will likely use it, and therefore drop Dex. Overall, I am of the opinion based on what I've heard here that Dexterity is not universally important to every build. In fact, I would argue it's not even useful enough to craft it for most builds.

  6. #146
    Community Member Scortius's Avatar
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    Thanks for making this, Ellis!
    Don't be a figjam.

  7. #147

    Default Back on the Rails

    It would be great if this thread got back on the rails after the DEX derailment. I'm interested in the current valuation of these collectables and those used for unbound crafting. Especially their value on the Shard Exchange. Thanks!

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