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  1. #1
    Community Member Taimasan's Avatar
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    Default We need a ETA on "unarmed" or? TWF? Hitbox fix? Clarification needed as well.

    ETA on this gamebreaking monk bug??

    People say its a THF things but I have no problem smacking mobs on the run with my Great Axe Barb??

    So what do people mean by the THF box being the problem??

    Anyway when will this be fixed? Its gamebreaking, and it needed to be fixed yesterday.

    Thanks,

    A Paying Customer.

  2. #2
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    I am not familiar with this bug. The hit box is much smaller with twf than thf, but as far as I know that is by design. I was using my twf a few days ago and didn't notice any problems. I was centered with khopeshes.

  3. #3
    Community Member J1NG's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Taimasan View Post
    ETA on this gamebreaking monk bug??
    Technically not "game breaking", just inconvenient for us unarmed monk users. Game breaking would be me being able to open all the chests of Legendary Shroud in 4 minutes flat after first entering. But I do know how it feels since I have numerous monks who are unarmed who suffer from this issue and would like this fixed soon as well.

    Anyway when will this be fixed? Its gamebreaking, and it needed to be fixed yesterday.

    Thanks,

    A Paying Customer.
    Being a paying customer doesn't mean as much as it sounds unfortunately.

    But from what I understand, there's lots of on the air comments from Turbine about it being fixed internally and aimed at being sorted before the next update, which means a hotfix or patch at some point between now and then. Since we just had the holidays, and the next update is around early/mid Decemeber, I'm going to give a guess of this week or next week that we'll see the patch/hotfix that sorts out the Unarmed reach issue. But that's just me, for all we know the Dev's could (just like the Wisdom to hit/damage) be pushed back because they have it on the backburner for something else, and just make you wait instead.

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  4. #4
    Community Member Rykka's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by slarden View Post
    I am not familiar with this bug. The hit box is much smaller with twf than thf, but as far as I know that is by design. I was using my twf a few days ago and didn't notice any problems. I was centered with khopeshes.
    I don't think anything has changed for TWF in the last year, I've always had to get right up on stuff to score hits. I think what happened is wraps were changed to weapons and no longer get better range than a pair of 3foot long khopeshes?
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  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rykka View Post
    I think what happened is wraps were changed to weapons and no longer get better range than a pair of 3foot long khopeshes?
    Exactly. This would be a great chance to do a QoL improvement for all TWF users to help us cope with mild lag and chasing moving targets.

    You know how you've designed a game which encourages kiting over co-operative, static play in its hardest difficulties? Well at least throw a bone to the people who are still stupidly persisting in trying to play characters like rogue assassins whose effectiveness in combat suffers the most from this crappy playstyle the game rewards so well.

    The depth of the hitbox doesn't have to be hugely improved either. At this point even a small increase could make a decent difference. But what little developer response there's been on this issue suggests they:

    a) Seem to think there's some reason unarmed fighters have a longer reach than people holding weapons in their hands. I guess all that karate gives you super long arms or something. Or maybe they become telescopic, Inspector Gadget style.

    and

    b) After doing that work to make handwraps like other weapons, they inexplicably seem want to make them a special case AGAIN rather than making a global adjustment which would benefit everyone having this problem. So much for standardisation.

    Why would you choose to handle this problem this way? 'Because Turbine' is the only answer I can think of here. If there's more to this issue no-one's bothered to tell us so far despite this issue being raised a number of times by the community.

    Thanks.
    Last edited by blerkington; 11-28-2016 at 04:00 AM.

  6. #6
    Community Member the_one_dwarfforged's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rykka View Post
    I don't think anything has changed for TWF in the last year, I've always had to get right up on stuff to score hits. I think what happened is wraps were changed to weapons and no longer get better range than a pair of 3foot long khopeshes?
    Quote Originally Posted by blerkington View Post
    Exactly. This would be a great chance to do a QoL improvement for all TWF users to help us cope with mild lag and chasing moving targets.

    You know how you've designed a game which encourages kiting over co-operative, static play in its hardest difficulties? Well at least throw a bone to the people who are still stupidly persisting in trying to play characters like rogue assassins whose combat styles suffers the most from this crappy playstyle the game rewards so well.

    The depth of the hitbox doesn't have to be hugely improved either. At this point even a small increase could make a decent difference. But what little developer response there's been on this issue suggests they:

    a) Seem to the think there's some reason unarmed fighters have a longer reach than people holding weapons in their hands. I guess all that karate gives you super long arms or something. Or maybe they become telescopic, Inspector Gadget style.

    and

    b) After doing that work to make handwraps like other weapons, they inexplicably seem want to add special code for them AGAIN rather than making a global adjustment which would benefit everyone else having the same problem. So much for standardisation.

    Why would you choose to handle this problem this way? 'Because Turbine' is the only answer I can think of here. If there's more to this issue no-one's bothered to tell us so far despite this issue being raised a number of times by the community.

    Thanks.
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  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rykka View Post
    I don't think anything has changed for TWF in the last year, I've always had to get right up on stuff to score hits. I think what happened is wraps were changed to weapons and no longer get better range than a pair of 3foot long khopeshes?
    Ah that makes sense - thanks. I can see where someone that primarily uses unarmed combat would have a hard time adjusting to the twf hit box.

  8. #8
    Community Member AbyssalMage's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by blerkington View Post
    Exactly. This would be a great chance to do a QoL improvement for all TWF users to help us cope with mild lag and chasing moving targets.

    You know how you've designed a game which encourages kiting over co-operative, static play in its hardest difficulties? Well at least throw a bone to the people who are still stupidly persisting in trying to play characters like rogue assassins whose effectiveness in combat suffers the most from this crappy playstyle the game rewards so well.
    Yes, encouraging non-melee combat stinks. This would be a QoL improvement for those like me who prefer melee.

    The depth of the hitbox doesn't have to be hugely improved either. At this point even a small increase could make a decent difference.
    Small increments are better than large ones. It's a lot harder to scale things back than to make small increases. That and its the psychology of "your gaining" something more than "your losing" something even though the end result is a "net gain" plays into the human psyche. Therefore I agree, small increments

    But what little developer response there's been on this issue suggests they:

    a) Seem to the think there's some reason unarmed fighters have a longer reach than people holding weapons in their hands. I guess all that karate gives you super long arms or something. Or maybe they become telescopic, Inspector Gadget style.

    and

    b) After doing that work to make handwraps like other weapons, they inexplicably seem want to make them a special case AGAIN rather than making a global adjustment which would benefit everyone having this problem. So much for standardization.
    A) Every time a NPC reaches (with their weapon, for example), that is an attack opportunity by a Monk. Weapons would not have the same advantage. So it makes sense from a physical sciences perspective. Shaolin (sp?) Monks have shown that a simple weapon thrust or attack can be used against an attacker. This is actually how I think about it. I had the same problem when reading about Monks in PnP 3.0 edition. It wasn't until I had a similar discussion that I changed my stance.

    B) The only thing I would like them to make special is allowing attacks with both "hands" on AoE cleave attacks (all of the different versions). Otherwise, expanding the hit box, in small increments, I am totally behind.

    Why would you choose to handle this problem this way? 'Because Turbine' is the only answer I can think of here. If there's more to this issue no-one's bothered to tell us so far despite this issue being raised a number of times by the community.

    Thanks.
    I know part of the problem was logistics. They have stated repeatedly that this was a HUGE undertaking. So they haven't remained silent so much as the community wants the pass finished.
    Quote Originally Posted by hp1055cm View Post
    They have been tweaking the game since I started and often I disagree with them. They focus on wrong stuff, over or under compensate and abandon too much stuff. Every once in awhile they get something right, if only temporarily.

  9. #9
    Community Member FuryFlash's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Taimasan View Post
    ETA on this gamebreaking monk bug??

    People say its a TWF things but I have no problem smacking mobs on the run with my Great Axe Barb??

    So what do people mean by the TWF box being the problem??

    Anyway when will this be fixed? Its gamebreaking, and it needed to be fixed yesterday.

    Thanks,

    A Paying Customer.
    Not sure what you are saying in lines 2 and 3 of your post. At first you mention how people are saying the hitbox problem is a TWF thing, but then you say that you don't see how this could be possible when your THF build can hit things while moving easily. To clarify, do you the difference between TWF and THF? TWF (Two Weapon Fighting) is wielding two weapons at once, for example two daggers. THF (Two Handed Fighting) is wielding a single large weapon that can only be used with both hands, like a greataxe. Since people are talking about TWF, your reference about a THF build is pointless.

    The reason people are talking about TWF when the threads are about monks is because handwraps are now counted as TWF weapons, therefore suffering from the same problems current TWF users have to deal with. TWF has always had the exact same hitbox problem monks suffer from now. What many people want, myself included, is for the reach of all characters using two weapons to increase, which includes handwraps.

    This exact problem is the reason why I don't use my favourite fighting style on any of my DDO characters. Although I love the idea of fighting with two weapons, using it in-game is terrible. Hitting things is extremely difficult if the player has a mobile, active combat playstyle, which I do. The game was built with a fantastic combat system which allows for movement and easy player control while attacking, unlike other MMO combat formats where players essentially select an enemy, auto-run up to it and start auto-hitting - boring! I'd like to use the great system we have, which unfortunately, TWF does not support very well.

    So, to the developers, please increase the reach of TWF as a whole, not just handwraps.

    Thank you.


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  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by AbyssalMage View Post
    A) Every time a NPC reaches (with their weapon, for example), that is an attack opportunity by a Monk. Weapons would not have the same advantage. So it makes sense from a physical sciences perspective. Shaolin (sp?) Monks have shown that a simple weapon thrust or attack can be used against an attacker. This is actually how I think about it. I had the same problem when reading about Monks in PnP 3.0 edition. It wasn't until I had a similar discussion that I changed my stance.
    That's one way of looking at it, and it supports the fictional idea for a fantasy world that equally skilled armed and unarmed combatants are on a level playing field. I don't think this is really the case at all, but this premise is necessary for unarmed builds to function in the game. The whole scenario is built around the idea of the armed opponent performing an attack which is slow and clumsy enough that it offers the time and the opportunity to get in close and counter attack. So the unarmed guy is basically beating up on people who are actually a lot less good than he is.

    I have no problem believing that a very good unarmed fighter can defeat an armed person who is less skillful than they are. I have great difficulty believing the idea that someone who actually knows how to use a weapon, like a sword for example, is going to have much trouble defeating an equally skilled unarmed opponent.

    The armed combatant has reach, just as much speed, and the ability to deliver dangerous injuries as well as bleed out their enemies without risking much himself. I'd encourage anyone who thinks differently to seek out a real life foil or sabre specialist and see exactly what a mismatch facing them bare-handed is when they can deliver dangerous or even fatal injuries in a fraction of a second with almost no time to avoid them let alone counterattack unless you are also similarly armed.

    No doubt I'm going to regret voicing this opinion because it's like a red rag to RL martial arts enthusiasts. If you (in general, not you Abyssal) are one of those people who think heavily choreographed martial arts films somehow realistically depict fighting and stories of Bruce Lee's or others' mystical powers are real then free to write me off as ignorant, that's perfectly fine with me. But in my view monks only make sense in DDO because they are deemed semi magical in this game world, not because of any actual parity between fighting armed and unarmed.

    Thanks.
    Last edited by blerkington; 11-28-2016 at 12:41 AM.

  11. #11
    Community Member AbyssalMage's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by blerkington View Post
    No doubt I'm going to regret voicing this opinion because it's like a red rag to RL martial arts enthusiasts. If you (in general, not you Abyssal) are one of those people who think heavily choreographed martial arts films somehow realistically depict fighting and stories of Bruce Lee's or others' mystical powers are real then free to write me off as ignorant, that's perfectly fine with me. But in my view monks only make sense in DDO because they are deemed semi magical in this game world, not because of any actual parity between fighting armed and unarmed.

    Thanks.
    See underlined for understanding of the next statement...

    I am waiting for a US soldier, or any soldier of any country of origin, destroy a tank with his bare hands. It's the same problem I have with a Monk facing off with a Dragon. How the holy turds does a Monks punches and kicks do anything except "tickle" a Dragon? Yeah, you have to see the underlined above. Like you said yourself, Magic
    Quote Originally Posted by hp1055cm View Post
    They have been tweaking the game since I started and often I disagree with them. They focus on wrong stuff, over or under compensate and abandon too much stuff. Every once in awhile they get something right, if only temporarily.

  12. #12
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    Reminds me a build in tabletop forum, someone created a master grappler monk specifically to be able to grapple and choke hold a dragon, an elder dragon at that
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  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dalros View Post
    Reminds me a build in tabletop forum, someone created a master grappler monk specifically to be able to grapple and choke hold a dragon, an elder dragon at that
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  14. #14
    Community Member Robbenklopper's Avatar
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    A reduced melee reach for wraps compared to a longsword or greataxe appears to be Logical, but not like it is now (for Monk) that you can´t hit anything running away with its rear to you. Something like this is not acceptable.
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  15. #15
    Community Member Dalros's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scrapco View Post
    LOS TIBURON, THE SHARK OF THE LAND, MASKED WRESTLER?

    NSFW language, I guess, if you work in a... someplace that... just read it.
    Oh thats the one i was laughing in stitches then, and its the same now
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  16. #16
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    I have come into this as a new player, and I run among others a twf monk/rouge.
    But as far I have see, my wraps have a shorter reach then my two short swords.
    I noticed this when destroying crates and barrels, where I found that I had to be closer to the target with my unarmed/handwraps.
    But then again I came into this how things are now and not before, but to me the reach seems NOT to be out there, I have trained some basic karate back in my youth and I can say with certainty, there are techniques to increase range, but not more then what any sword would.

    I'd say if high enough level your reach would be +length of dagger, maybe short sword at a extreme maximum

  17. #17
    Community Member NaturalHazard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by blerkington View Post
    Exactly. This would be a great chance to do a QoL improvement for all TWF users to help us cope with mild lag and chasing moving targets.

    You know how you've designed a game which encourages kiting over co-operative, static play in its hardest difficulties? Well at least throw a bone to the people who are still stupidly persisting in trying to play characters like rogue assassins whose effectiveness in combat suffers the most from this crappy playstyle the game rewards so well.

    The depth of the hitbox doesn't have to be hugely improved either. At this point even a small increase could make a decent difference. But what little developer response there's been on this issue suggests they:

    a) Seem to think there's some reason unarmed fighters have a longer reach than people holding weapons in their hands. I guess all that karate gives you super long arms or something. Or maybe they become telescopic, Inspector Gadget style.

    and

    b) After doing that work to make handwraps like other weapons, they inexplicably seem want to make them a special case AGAIN rather than making a global adjustment which would benefit everyone having this problem. So much for standardisation.

    Why would you choose to handle this problem this way? 'Because Turbine' is the only answer I can think of here. If there's more to this issue no-one's bothered to tell us so far despite this issue being raised a number of times by the community.

    Thanks.

    Very good point, one weird thing is I find my range with some my attacks while 2wf is better with things like laywaste compared to my regular attacks. Another is with my 2wf compared to my 2hf is yes i have to be chest to chest or chest to back to hit things most of the time, it also makes it difficult with positioning well more difficult especially when you can get one or two shotted if your not careful, plus the lag.

  18. #18
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    I tried sneaking and attacking with a halfling monk, and my hitbox seemed to be non-existent. I couldn't hit anything while sneaking.
    Even with stationary enemies right in front of me.

  19. #19
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    In all fairness, mobs will almost always hit you just out of their reach. What applies to players should also go to enemies.
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  20. #20
    Community Member Taimasan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AArrows_Of_Fire View Post
    Not sure what you are saying in lines 2 and 3 of your post. At first you mention how people are saying the hitbox problem is a TWF thing, but then you say that you don't see how this could be possible when your THF build can hit things while moving easily. To clarify, do you the difference between TWF and THF? TWF (Two Weapon Fighting) is wielding two weapons at once, for example two daggers. THF (Two Handed Fighting) is wielding a single large weapon that can only be used with both hands, like a greataxe. Since people are talking about TWF, your reference about a THF build is pointless.

    The reason people are talking about TWF when the threads are about monks is because handwraps are now counted as TWF weapons, therefore suffering from the same problems current TWF users have to deal with. TWF has always had the exact same hitbox problem monks suffer from now. What many people want, myself included, is for the reach of all characters using two weapons to increase, which includes handwraps.

    This exact problem is the reason why I don't use my favourite fighting style on any of my DDO characters. Although I love the idea of fighting with two weapons, using it in-game is terrible. Hitting things is extremely difficult if the player has a mobile, active combat playstyle, which I do. The game was built with a fantastic combat system which allows for movement and easy player control while attacking, unlike other MMO combat formats where players essentially select an enemy, auto-run up to it and start auto-hitting - boring! I'd like to use the great system we have, which unfortunately, TWF does not support very well.

    So, to the developers, please increase the reach of TWF as a whole, not just handwraps.

    Thank you.

    Changed my THF to TWF. I thought I heard reports of it being a THF hitbox or I may of just be confused. I am not sure anymore.

    Im guessing its the TWF hitbox for weapons that function as THF?

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