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  1. #321
    Undermine Zerger Knight_slayer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BigErkyKid View Post

    But I cannot have my fun if I am restricted to be a 2nd class player because I don't want to trail the FOTM.
    So your issue is not with warlock specifically but with all classes/builds more powerful than what you choose to play? And even though warlock is not more powerful than other powerful builds/classes you want it nerfed because it just happens to be more powerful than what you choose to play? So basically anyone else that chooses a class that happens to be more powerful than what you choose to play can shut up and accept a nerf because its all about you right?

  2. #322
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    Quote Originally Posted by Knight_slayer View Post
    So your issue is not with warlock specifically but with all classes/builds more powerful than what you choose to play? And even though warlock is not more powerful than other powerful builds/classes you want it nerfed because it just happens to be more powerful than what you choose to play? So basically anyone else that chooses a class that happens to be more powerful than what you choose to play can shut up and accept a nerf because its all about you right?
    If that's what you got from my post, you ought to go back and read it. The form of your post is already quite telling.

    Never said my class / archetype has to be the best. I argued against some builds pulling so much ahead of others that make playing the lesser builds pretty pointless.

    You are a FOTM power gamer. There is nothing wrong with that. The reason why we cannot have a real discussion is that while I understand perfectly well your standpoint, you are unwilling to try to understand mine.

    So if all you want is a yelling contest, throw some selfishness accusations, stir a bit the general forum, and appear uber; well then congrats but you have achieved the goal.

    Again, if you actually want to understand where people like me come from, read my post again.

    PS - For some context, my assertion:

    So you guys play whatever is the best in the current meta. As such, you hardly ever ask for nerfs or complain about class balance. You simply switch to the next best.

    I am not saying you are doing anything wrong, but I am just trying to point out exactly why you think warlock is NOT OP. Because for you it simply isn't. You play builds that are up there in power, and the builds that aren't, you just don't play.

    But some of us don't play like that. We like certain archetypes, and we would like to keep playing them through different updates. We don't necessarily want to be the top1 FOTM build in terms of power, but we don't want to be totally outclasses. We believe that game balance should be important, and that it cannot be that some classes / builds are so much ahead of others.
    and the answer:

    So basically anyone else that chooses a class that happens to be more powerful than what you choose to play can shut up and accept a nerf because its all about you right?

    clap clap clap!
    Last edited by BigErkyKid; 10-27-2016 at 08:38 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by retrojet View Post
    Why are there entire pure classes still that are completely unusable [...]. Why are there entire trees that no one will ever invest in? Why are there entire destinies that no one will ever play in? Why aren't these questions even on the developer radar screen?

  3. #323
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wizza View Post
    Achievements have been dead since forever. Last year was an impressive shroud spam by the same people, some warlock/tree, a shiradi zombie. Look at it now: empty. It's a desert.
    That's interesting. Another reason may be that certain builds made speed runs so easily achievable ( a joke in certain cases ) and required so little skill to do that the few ppl actually interested in challenges or speed runs lost all interest in it, because it's not the player and his/her skill anyomore who makes it possible but just the build.

  4. #324
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    Some people just play cheese because it is the only way they don't look mediocre at playing this game.

  5. #325
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eth View Post
    There's a big difference between asking for a nerf of something you play youself and asking for a nerf of something you only assess based on the performance of others.
    I have played a warlock myself ( 6 boring lifes for past life benefits ) so I know perfectly how a warlock performs. The only difference here is that you 1 year ago were demanding nerfs for some builds you didn't like and consiered too OP and now you play even more OP builds , don't demand nerfs and call ***** whoever demands it while really not putting up any argument or fact or anything that contributes to the discussion.

    Quote Originally Posted by Eth View Post
    Comparing crit chances of physical damage dealers and spell casters is pretty useless by the way.
    Repating that mantra over and over without giving any real reason why it's legit. It would be better for the discussion though if you could elaborate some argument or reason why it's so useless to compare them rather than just : you can't compare that because I say it.
    Last edited by 2pc2; 10-27-2016 at 08:59 AM.

  6. #326
    Death's Dominator Eth's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 2pc2 View Post
    I have played a warlock myself ( 6 boring lifes for past life benefits ) so I know perfectly how a warlock performs. The only difference here is that you 1 year ago were demanding nerfs for some builds you didn't like and consiered too OP and now you play even more OP builds ,
    Simply not true. My favourite melee has always been tempest. I gave the devs huge **** for throwing on crit multi and range last second before even bringing up another round on lamma, because that pushed them way to far ahead in DPS in my opinion.
    I liked and played all the builds I've asked to be nerfed.

    Quote Originally Posted by 2pc2 View Post
    don't demand nerfs and call ***** whoever demands it while really not putting up any argument or fact or anything that contributes to the discussion.
    Didn't say it's you, I was simply using the example you gave (with player y and x). Funny you'd think that.

    Quote Originally Posted by 2pc2 View Post
    Repating that mantra over and over without giving any real reason why it's legit. It would be better for the discussion though if you could elaborate some argument or reason why it's so useless to compare them rather than just : you can't compare that because I say it.
    Because they are based on fundamentally different machanics. Picking out a single thing and comparing it has no value in the big picture.

    Weapon base damage vs spell base damage (which is based on the spell and caster levels + max caster levels).
    Damage modifier vs there is no such thing for spells.
    MP/RP vs Spell Power.
    Damage reduction vs resistances + absorption.
    Hits per second vs casting rotations (limited to 1 spell per second and number of spells available).
    AoE damage...
    DCs on spells vs doesn't apply for dealing physical damage
    etc.

    In the end you can totally do a DPS comparision by simply measuring the DPS. But picking out one thing of a long list of different mechanics and saying one or the other is better because of that, is pure nonsense.

    And then you only compared one aspect, which is damage. Especially spell casters aren't even a classic role to do only that.
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  7. #327
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    Quote Originally Posted by Knight_slayer View Post
    So your issue is not with warlock specifically but with all classes/builds more powerful than what you choose to play? And even though warlock is not more powerful than other powerful builds/classes you want it nerfed because it just happens to be more powerful than what you choose to play? So basically anyone else that chooses a class that happens to be more powerful than what you choose to play can shut up and accept a nerf because its all about you right?
    Dude stop twitching his words, if you are fine with 1 class completing the same quest on the same dificulty taking half the time that about any other class or build in the game even on the hands of the same player, it's ok. Show us some arguments or reasons why you think it's fine that 1 class can complete quest easier and 100% faster than others, though I suspect finding convincing arguments for that it's not easy. Or if you really think warlocks are not that OP and can't complete quests double faster than others show us some facts about another class doing that. It's not a mere 10% more efficiency its 100% or double as good. When 2-3 builds are 100% more effective than all the rest I ( and some others) think there is a problem if you think it's not defend your point with arguments or facts not by twitching someone words at your convenience.

    Does anyone really think that if warlocks were just sightly better than the rest this thread would have gone to 16 pages and going ... The difference is so huge that it looks like a you're playing another game or difficulty.

  8. #328
    Community Member Mr_Helmet's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eth View Post
    Simply not true. My favourite melee has always been tempest. I gave the devs huge **** for throwing on crit multi and range last second before even bringing up another round on lamma, because that pushed them way to far ahead in DPS in my opinion.
    Blasphemy. Tempest needs to be buffed

  9. #329
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eth View Post
    I liked and played all the builds I've asked to be nerfed.
    But your are naturally having an easier time in DDO because you move with the meta. Those of us who don't are the ones at the wrong end of the spear.

    Most people who are attached to some builds are the ones coming to the forums complaining when some options just pull ahead so much. You have for example Wizza and Rys complaining during the reign of melee (paladin/barb times), others like Iriale when insta killers were trash in end game (DoJ) and now some of us complaining about a lot of melee builds being at the short end right now (Slavers grind, etc).

    People like Sestra, Slarden, or you just change builds and go to the top performing. So not the biggest deal if that happens to be an archer, a shiradi rapper, or a barb.

    It is very easy to mock the players who are angered because their archetype is just so much worse. And those players have only a few options, embrace the FOTM, solo / play without FOTMs, whine until the devs make an adjustment. All those options feel like losing.
    Quote Originally Posted by retrojet View Post
    Why are there entire pure classes still that are completely unusable [...]. Why are there entire trees that no one will ever invest in? Why are there entire destinies that no one will ever play in? Why aren't these questions even on the developer radar screen?

  10. #330
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    Quote Originally Posted by 2pc2 View Post
    Dude stop twitching his words, if you are fine with 1 class completing the same quest on the same dificulty taking half the time that about any other class or build in the game even on the hands of the same player, it's ok. Show us some arguments or reasons why you think it's fine that 1 class can complete quest easier and 100% faster than others, though I suspect finding convincing arguments for that it's not easy. Or if you really think warlocks are not that OP and can't complete quests double faster than others show us some facts about another class doing that. It's not a mere 10% more efficiency its 100% or double as good. When 2-3 builds are 100% more effective than all the rest I ( and some others) think there is a problem if you think it's not defend your point with arguments or facts not by twitching someone words at your convenience.

    Does anyone really think that if warlocks were just sightly better than the rest this thread would have gone to 16 pages and going ... The difference is so huge that it looks like a you're playing another game or difficulty.
    Careful, because there are other classes doing that (shiradi spammers, shurikens, trees, etc.). And I am sure a good melee can shave off time from my completion.

    That doesn't mean that warlock is much more powerful than a lot of melee builds, or that there is overall balance.
    Quote Originally Posted by retrojet View Post
    Why are there entire pure classes still that are completely unusable [...]. Why are there entire trees that no one will ever invest in? Why are there entire destinies that no one will ever play in? Why aren't these questions even on the developer radar screen?

  11. #331
    Community Member Mr_Helmet's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BigErkyKid View Post
    But your are naturally having an easier time in DDO because you move with the meta. Those of us who don't are the ones at the wrong end of the spear.
    It's a pretty big spear though, I'm sure there's something close to the tip that you can enjoy playing.

  12. #332
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr_Helmet View Post
    It's a pretty big spear though, I'm sure there's something close to the tip that you can enjoy playing.
    I simply won't accept the imbalance without complaining. As I said, I believe people like me who point out at the vast differences in power have a legitimate point.

    The majority of games claim to be balanced and that's for a reason: it is understood that a balanced game is a good game.

    Kind of hard though to have to fight against the vision of the producer and developers. Ultimately it is not the FOTM riders who are making the game imbalanced, it is the people engineering the game.
    Quote Originally Posted by retrojet View Post
    Why are there entire pure classes still that are completely unusable [...]. Why are there entire trees that no one will ever invest in? Why are there entire destinies that no one will ever play in? Why aren't these questions even on the developer radar screen?

  13. #333
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eth View Post
    Simply not true. My favourite melee has always been tempest. I gave the devs huge **** for throwing on crit multi and range last second before even bringing up another round on lamma, because that pushed them way to far ahead in DPS in my opinion.
    I liked and played all the builds I've asked to be nerfed.
    LOL. What you like to play doesn't matter at all and I don't think ppl open that therad to see what your favorite class is. My point still stands you asked for certain builds to be nerfed a year ago because they were, according to you, too OP, now you are playing an even more OP build ( with 60% crtit chances) you don't demand for nerfs and you call anyone who dares to ask for it a ******. So when you demand nefs to something you consider OP it's all ok if others do the same they are ******. I see a pattern there and some hipocrisy.

    Quote Originally Posted by Eth View Post
    Didn't say it's you, I was simply using the example you gave (with player y and x). Funny you'd think that.
    I didn't say it's me either. I said whoever. Whoever =/= me. Funny you'd think that :P
    Quote Originally Posted by Eth View Post


    Because they are based on fundamentally different machanics. Picking out a single thing and comparing it has no value in the big picture.

    Weapon base damage vs spell base damage (which is based on the spell and caster levels + max caster levels).
    Damage modifier vs there is no such thing for spells.
    MP/RP vs Spell Power.
    Damage reduction vs resistances + absorption.
    Hits per second vs casting rotations (limited to 1 spell per second and number of spells available).
    AoE damage...
    DCs on spells vs doesn't apply for dealing physical damage
    etc.

    In the end you can totally do a DPS comparision by simply measuring the DPS. But picking out one thing of a long list of different mechanics and saying one or the other is better because of that, is pure nonsense.

    And then you only compared one aspect, which is damage. Especially spell casters aren't even a classic role to do only that.
    That is way more interesting than just saying you can compare, period.

    You are right in part, crit chances is not all that matters but it's a huge part of the equation, probably the most important one or 1 of the most importants ( with MP/RP/SP and mutiplier ). I wouldn't mind beaking this all down to see the end dps result. Game?

    I'm sure it would be very telling about why certain builds overperform like they do... but I guess you already know it, right?
    Last edited by 2pc2; 10-27-2016 at 10:11 AM.

  14. #334
    Community Member Vint's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BigErkyKid View Post
    I already agreed with you. But end game now is slavers, not tempest. And this comparison holds for all the other quests and raids in the game, safe for Shroud, tempest, and Hox.
    I've been reading over the thread and I can see your complaints. I think my main concern is that over the years we have always seen a new FOTM and there is always something new to complain about when it comes to balance.

    I think my question is; if they removed WL from the game right now, the number crunchers would have another build that would still destroy current endgame. Many people would make this build and content would be just as trivial as before. Would you continue to play on the forums over playing and enjoying the game until you can convince turbine to put asassin at the top of the food chain?

    Maybe I have resigned myself to see that the number crunchers will always have a new FOTM or best build no matter what Turbine throws at them. I'm sure you have seen it and know this is how it has been since the beginning of the game.

    It was not my intention to belittle or harass you with my post yesterday but I think you are fighting a battle you just cannot win. You may win in the battle to nerf WL once again, but how long would it be before a new build comes along and trivializes content again while leaving your assasin in the dust?
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  15. #335
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    Quote Originally Posted by BigErkyKid View Post
    Careful, because there are other classes doing that (shiradi spammers, shurikens, trees, etc.). And I am sure a good melee can shave off time from my completion.
    Already mentioned in my first post here that trees and some shiradi spammers are as broken and op as warlock. I also metioned there that those are the only other 2 builds with similar completions posted, but since this thread is warlock specific I keep my focus on them. Also I am sure some good warlocks can shave Vodoo time too. Also I'm sure non of those imaginary uber players will post anything remotely close to that cuz most of them are all words zero facts, or that's what they showed in this thread. I won't believe fleshy shuriken builds doing it untill I see it and I'm sure if they do it will be using cheesy tactics , some perch spot or in a more skilled way rather than just overpowering it like warlocks do, standing in the middle of 5 LE bosses while taking a cup of tea with 1 hand and pushing the same 3 buttons over and over with the other.
    Last edited by 2pc2; 10-27-2016 at 10:13 AM.

  16. #336
    Community Member Mr_Helmet's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BigErkyKid View Post
    Kind of hard though to have to fight against the vision of the producer and developers. Ultimately it is not the FOTM riders who are making the game imbalanced, it is the people engineering the game.
    I agree, don't hate the player.

    I just don't think stuff's as bad off as you do.

  17. #337
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vint View Post
    I've been reading over the thread and I can see your complaints. I think my main concern is that over the years we have always seen a new FOTM and there is always something new to complain about when it comes to balance.

    I think my question is; if they removed WL from the game right now, the number crunchers would have another build that would still destroy current endgame. Many people would make this build and content would be just as trivial as before. Would you continue to play on the forums over playing and enjoying the game until you can convince turbine to put asassin at the top of the food chain?

    Maybe I have resigned myself to see that the number crunchers will always have a new FOTM or best build no matter what Turbine throws at them. I'm sure you have seen it and know this is how it has been since the beginning of the game.

    It was not my intention to belittle or harass you with my post yesterday but I think you are fighting a battle you just cannot win. You may win in the battle to nerf WL once again, but how long would it be before a new build comes along and trivializes content again while leaving your assasin in the dust?
    I think, like you, that there will always be a FOTM. Sometimes it will be a piece of gear, or a new feat, or just some content favoring one build over another. My concern is when the differences get so abysmal.

    Ultimately, it was turbine adding some much crit damage, which is part of what has imbalanced the meta again towards casters.

    Turbine does try to learn from previous mistakes, they claimed they would do more incremental changes, as opposed to big sweeping changes. Its just that they don't seem to have a very good idea to balance different archetypes. Or perhaps its on purpose, I cannot get in their heads.

    Noise in the forums just brings attentions to issues. I don't know what I'll get out of it. Eventually we all get tired and go play something else.
    Quote Originally Posted by retrojet View Post
    Why are there entire pure classes still that are completely unusable [...]. Why are there entire trees that no one will ever invest in? Why are there entire destinies that no one will ever play in? Why aren't these questions even on the developer radar screen?

  18. #338
    Community Member changelingamuck's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vint View Post
    I've been reading over the thread and I can see your complaints. I think my main concern is that over the years we have always seen a new FOTM and there is always something new to complain about when it comes to balance.

    I think my question is; if they removed WL from the game right now, the number crunchers would have another build that would still destroy current endgame. Many people would make this build and content would be just as trivial as before. Would you continue to play on the forums over playing and enjoying the game until you can convince turbine to put asassin at the top of the food chain?

    Maybe I have resigned myself to see that the number crunchers will always have a new FOTM or best build no matter what Turbine throws at them. I'm sure you have seen it and know this is how it has been since the beginning of the game.

    It was not my intention to belittle or harass you with my post yesterday but I think you are fighting a battle you just cannot win. You may win in the battle to nerf WL once again, but how long would it be before a new build comes along and trivializes content again while leaving your assasin in the dust?
    Class balance isn't a black-or-white, either-or issue. Class balance is not either 'there' or 'not there'. The classes are not either "Balanced" or "Unbalanced"--they are more or less balanced as a matter of degree. Saying, 'well, there will always be a best build' misses the point. The fact that there will always be a 'best build' doesn't make efforts to make the game more balanced undesirable. The fact that the classes will never be perfectly balanced in some ideal way doesn't make efforts to make the game more balanced undesirable.

  19. #339
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    The problem is not just ban the cheese builds from your group but the endgame scene be focused on those cheese builds.

    Make everybody to tr into some cheese build to be able to complete some LE raid or rape diff is dumb.

    Specially when the content have no challenge, just silly instakill mobs.

    It's fine that some ppl need to go cheese to keep up but focus the game only for cheese is a fail.

  20. #340
    Community Member Mr_Helmet's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Duetotheseverity View Post
    It's fine that some ppl need to go cheese to keep up but focus the game only for cheese is a fail.
    Define cheese.

    Is anything pure 20 fall under that category?

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