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  1. #1
    Community Member Holymunchkin's Avatar
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    Default Munchkin's Quick and Dirty fixes for Difficulty in LE Raids

    Damage to the Players

    3k and 2k hits to PCs result in 1 and 2 shotting of almost any concievable build.
    Whilst we need the threat of mobs to be that high we can quickly reconcile one-shotting and the need for difficulty.

    Increase mob alacrity and movement speed.
    Mobs recieving a quick and dirty global haste buff would increase their threat to players. Say 30-75%.
    This would also decrease the advantage kiting gives.

    Decrease mob damage.
    The maximum damage a PC should recieve on a 100 PRR toon should 2 or 3 shot them. This is the "middle of the road." Casters can achieve this, but most won't. Tanks will get a better ratio of 4-5 hits before death. This enables twitch healing between fast mob attacks.

    Orthons (shroud) and Orange Named Reavers (Hox) hit for 3k currently. To 2 shot a 1.3k hitpoint toon that would be 750 damage a swing after mitigation. This means 1.5k damage on hit.
    Trogs, Kobolds, Xz'zzy drones hit for about 2k currently. To 3 shot a 1.3k hitpoint toon that would be 425 damage a swing after mitigation. This means 850 damage on hit.
    From here we can deduce that mobs should hit 50% less hard globally.

    Spell Penetration

    The requirements for a DC caster in Shroud and HoX LE are high. 65 spell pen is the maximum achievable* on a wizard. Currently a 62 is required for no fail. In order to reduce the necessity of past lives while keeping their benefit, please drop spell pen requirements by 9. This lets warlocks and bards access the spell pen required.
    Andoris can comment on DCs but when we did testing today he felt they were fine. It is refreshing to see a raid context where twitch CC is so useful. +1 Devs.

    Tempest's Spine

    It can be completed on LE with a great party in about 10min. Sor'jek is not at all threatening. The mobs are not threatening, even while one shoting. In order to improve this, some other creative solutions need to take place. I don't know what to do. Other thoughts from people?

    That's all for my ideas of things that are necessary from a difficulty perspective. An all-star raid group completed all 3 raids on EE. I participated in the runs and we had a lot of fun. I don't want melee to feel out of place, and I think the above reccomendations are quick solution to some of the frustration's expressed by lamma players.


    *
    (updated per comments)
    20 wizard caster levels
    3 sun-elf
    3 archmage
    5 destiny caster levels
    7 TF hand
    2 insightful equipment bonus: epic orb of increased potential
    6 Piercing spellcraft and twist of other version
    2 Echoes of Ancestor: Wizard
    8 feats
    2 arcane soldier gloves: arcane augmentation
    = 58 spell pen before past lives
    6 wizard PLs
    3 fvs PLs
    = 67 spell pen after past lives
    Last edited by Holymunchkin; 12-14-2015 at 02:03 AM.

  2. #2
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    Change the AI of mobs.

    Make Range mobs attack melee and have higher tendency to run away.

    Make Melee mobs attack Range and caster first with a battle rager charge effect that slow down range/caster toon. Make the charge break out of pin/otto and Crowd Control of sort. Set this up so they only charge when the player is x distance away and at most x second. Adjust the damage of melee mobs so this doesn't become a charge and instant kill on the range/caster.

    put a cap on prr and mrr based on different armor type. This will help tweak damage output of mobs a bit easier since there is a smaller power gap difference between triple epic completionist and people with 0 Epic Past Lives.
    Last edited by IBCrabin; 12-14-2015 at 01:34 AM.

  3. #3
    Community Member Thrudh's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Holymunchkin View Post
    The mobs are not threatening, even while one shoting.
    Explain this... why should the devs lower the damage the mobs do if this is true?

    I really liked your proposals until you wrote this. Explain how 1-shot mobs are not dangerous, and if not, why do they need to be made weaker?
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    When you stop caring about xp/min this game becomes really fun. Trust me.
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    Some people brag about how fast they finished the game. I cant think of a stupider thing to brag about. Or in this game, going from level 1 to level 30 in two days, or however long it takes. I can't even begin to imagine what drives a person to think that is fun. You are ignoring all of the content and options and going for sheer speed. It is like going to a museum and bragging about how fast you made it through. Or bragging about how fast you finished a good steak.

  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by Holymunchkin View Post
    Spell-pen breakdown if anyone wants to add or subtract
    20 wizard caster levels
    3 sun-elf
    3 archmage
    5 destiny caster levels
    7 TF off-hand
    6 Piercing spellcraft and twist of other version
    2 Echoes of Ancestor: Wizard
    8 feats
    2 arcane soldier gloves: arcane augmentation
    = 56 spell pen before past lives
    6 wizard PLs
    3 fvs PLs
    = 65 spell pen after past lives
    also +2 from increased potential orb

  5. #5
    Community Member Jetrule's Avatar
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    Some mob types able to one shot is acceptable. Randomly placed stealthy drow assassins in tempest spine who use good to great stealth and sneak attacks attacks with 150 fort bypass would be good one shot monsters bring back the fear of Shadar kai making people want a good spotter or at least a aoe blaster to try and sniff them out.
    . Some who use stunning or trips or confusion hits.. Oh nice I would like to see some archers that fire confusion arrows giving a chance to make players attack other players. Some types who only will one shot certain enemies.

    Like a on hit 2000 rust damage type mob with a standard weaker physical component for 100-200. A warlock mob with good speed, defenses and with nice damage tick auras and able to cast evards to deal with Kiters.
    A monster that dose massive bleed damage that begs for a undead or forged to tank them.

    Archers with human slaying greater human genocide arrows that deal 1500 bane damage to humans is acceptable. This promotes variety and teamwork. A monster type that dose on hit 30d6 fire blast with 300 fire spell power and 20% to 30% crit chance dc 50-80 ish or a acid blast or a electric... Begging for a evasion type to tank them. A heavy hitting monster that dose the base 2500 or whatever damage on L.E. but it attacks slowly and has a fairly low to hit modifier so they can conceivably be ac.tanked or timing shield blocked. Variety is the spice of life.

    For Sorjek make his legendary reincarnation a cone shape blasting warlock with faltering blast and force and fire damage,some times and a chain blasting confusion procking evil and acid damage other times. And just to be different a rare chance for a ravager barbarian/enlightened spirit incarnation with self healing hits and temp hp aura 2x his con and big armor destruction and fort reduction on hit procs on other occasions.

    Dangerous surprises are at the heart Of D&D game play. Predictable sameness while very much the heart of computer gaming is less fun and more limiting in designing challenge.

    The answer to providing challenge by making everything beyond a certain difficulty able to one shot kill players is just death for melee fighting characters. there should as a rule of thumb be nothing that dose over say 1000 base damage from regular monsters. Only certain mobs should have such huge base 2500 or more damage. They could be vulnerable to something like enchantment or death magic or elemental damage to make tactics and team work fun.
    Last edited by Jetrule; 12-14-2015 at 02:38 AM.
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  6. #6
    Time Killer XbaileyX's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Holymunchkin View Post
    Damage to the Players

    3k and 2k hits to PCs result in 1 and 2 shotting of almost any concievable build.
    Whilst we need the threat of mobs to be that high we can quickly reconcile one-shotting and the need for difficulty.

    Increase mob alacrity and movement speed.
    Mobs recieving a quick and dirty global haste buff would increase their threat to players. Say 30-75%.
    This would also decrease the advantage kiting gives.

    Decrease mob damage.
    The maximum damage a PC should recieve on a 100 PRR toon should 2 or 3 shot them. This is the "middle of the road." Casters can achieve this, but most won't. Tanks will get a better ratio of 4-5 hits before death. This enables twitch healing between fast mob attacks.

    Orthons (shroud) and Orange Named Reavers (Hox) hit for 3k currently. To 2 shot a 1.3k hitpoint toon that would be 750 damage a swing after mitigation. This means 1.5k damage on hit.
    Trogs, Kobolds, Xz'zzy drones hit for about 2k currently. To 3 shot a 1.3k hitpoint toon that would be 425 damage a swing after mitigation. This means 850 damage on hit.
    From here we can deduce that mobs should hit 50% less hard globally.
    This is good. The way I heard it was half the damage swinging twice as often. It gives the chance and possibly of Clerics and healers being useful as well as a chance for twitch skills. The only current benefit to Clerics is quick raises. While IM LOVING the need for CC the ability to be hit at least once does need to be there. As it stands we may as well completely dump con bc 600 hp = 1200 hp atm. One shot it one shot.

    But we are heading in the right direction with as fair as LE, just not quite "there".
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  7. #7
    Time Killer XbaileyX's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Holymunchkin View Post
    Damage to the Players


    *
    (updated per comments)
    20 wizard caster levels
    3 sun-elf
    3 archmage
    5 destiny caster levels
    7 TF hand
    2 insightful equipment bonus: epic orb of increased potential
    6 Piercing spellcraft and twist of other version
    2 Echoes of Ancestor: Wizard
    8 feats
    2 arcane soldier gloves: arcane augmentation
    = 58 spell pen before past lives
    6 wizard PLs
    3 fvs PLs
    = 67 spell pen after past lives
    Please keep in mind this takes both hands and leaves zero room for Legendary GS and Necro items. Which means this number is pretty for a screenshot but not for practical play. If we get spell pen requirement down to the suggested 58 or 60 even it still makes you really work/gear and live for it and gives you the chance for dc's well. I was running 60 spell pen as a drow I was giving up roughly 10 possible Int which is a fair trade off, to hit these current numbers you are looking at giving up another 5int and 6dc items.
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  8. #8
    Community Member Holymunchkin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thrudh View Post
    Explain this... why should the devs lower the damage the mobs do if this is true?

    I really liked your proposals until you wrote this. Explain how 1-shot mobs are not dangerous, and if not, why do they need to be made weaker?
    A. Mob's DPS stays level with alacrity bonus and dphit decrease. Mobs are not "weaker." PC is able to use their healing and have an actual benefit from PRR under 200.
    B. One-shots (in TS) are not dangerous due to the layout of the raid. Feel free to run it! It's very easy (relatively). I know you've mentioned elsewhere you haven't gotten on there yet.

  9. #9
    Community Member Holymunchkin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by XbaileyX View Post
    Please keep in mind this takes both hands and leaves zero room for Legendary GS and Necro items. Which means this number is pretty for a screenshot but not for practical play. If we get spell pen requirement down to the suggested 58 or 60 even it still makes you really work/gear and live for it and gives you the chance for dc's well. I was running 60 spell pen as a drow I was giving up roughly 10 possible Int which is a fair trade off, to hit these current numbers you are looking at giving up another 5int and 6dc items.
    +1

  10. #10
    Time Killer XbaileyX's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Holymunchkin View Post
    A. Mob's DPS stays level with alacrity bonus and dphit decrease. Mobs are not "weaker." PC is able to use their healing and have an actual benefit from PRR under 200.
    B. One-shots (in TS) are not dangerous due to the layout of the raid. Feel free to run it! It's very easy (relatively). I know you've mentioned elsewhere you haven't gotten on there yet.
    This.

    There is a need in Shroud and HoX to split in groups and handle mobs with 3 or 4 ppl. Some of those Red named are unable to be cc'd. In TS there isn't that need you run as a team of 12 and smash everything before it matters. One person may die at a time, but its not 4 ppl dead at a time.
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  11. #11
    Community Member Rys's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Holymunchkin View Post
    Damage to the Players
    The maximum damage a PC should recieve on a 100 PRR toon should 2 or 3 shot them.
    This is how it should work for the trash mobs. Bosses should be stronger. However I simply can't see how they can ever make anything challenging again if they are not willing work on some mechanics that would make us use proper tactics and planning especially in the raids that we have run 800 times. They could have saved so much time, ressources and forum rage if they would actually get things right for the very first time instead of randomly messing with the stats of mobs every single update.

  12. #12
    Community Member Seljuck's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thrudh View Post
    Explain this... why should the devs lower the damage the mobs do if this is true?

    I really liked your proposals until you wrote this. Explain how 1-shot mobs are not dangerous, and if not, why do they need to be made weaker?
    I see it like this:

    No matter how you build your melee toon, how much prr/dodge/defenses etc you have, how much work you put in to your build, you will be one-shot, when mob hit you. If you know that he WILL hit you, because there's no way to achieve 100% miss chance or even 80%, you are not threatened by this. You know that you will die, and it's just matter of time. You have to accept this, or don't run this raids/quests.

    I have a question for you. If you know, that no matter what you will do, mob kills you with one shot, you will care about your defenses? About more past lives which require lot of effort?

    Because I don't. It's wasted time.
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  13. #13
    Time Killer XbaileyX's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Seljuck View Post
    I see it like this:

    No matter how you build your melee toon, how much prr/dodge/defenses etc you have, how much work you put in to your build, you will be one-shot, when mob hit you. If you know that he WILL hit you, because there's no way to achieve 100% miss chance or even 80%, you are not threatened by this. You know that you will die, and it's just matter of time. You have to accept this, or don't run this raids/quests.

    I have a question for you. If you know, that no matter what you will do, mob kills you with one shot, you will care about your defenses? About more past lives which require lot of effort?

    Because I don't. It's wasted time.
    I agree with these things. I would like to keep the difficulty without negating all survivability and skill. There has to be a balance or in between.
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  14. #14
    Community Member CrackedIce's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jetrule View Post
    some mob types able to one shot is acceptable. Randomly placed stealthy drow assassins in tempest spine who use good to great stealth and sneak attacks attacks with 150 fort bypass would be good one shot monsters bring back the fear of shadar kai making people want a good spotter or at least a aoe blaster to try and sniff them out.
    . Some who use stunning or trips or confusion hits.. Oh nice i would like to see some archers that fire confusion arrows giving a chance to make players attack other players. Some types who only will one shot certain enemies.

    Like a on hit 2000 rust damage type mob with a standard weaker physical component for 100-200. A warlock mob with good speed, defenses and with nice damage tick auras and able to cast evards to deal with kiters.
    A monster that dose massive bleed damage that begs for a undead or forged to tank them.

    Archers with human slaying greater human genocide arrows that deal 1500 bane damage to humans is acceptable. This promotes variety and teamwork. A monster type that dose on hit 30d6 fire blast with 300 fire spell power and 20% to 30% crit chance dc 50-80 ish or a acid blast or a electric... Begging for a evasion type to tank them. A heavy hitting monster that dose the base 2500 or whatever damage on l.e. But it attacks slowly and has a fairly low to hit modifier so they can conceivably be ac.tanked or timing shield blocked. Variety is the spice of life.

    For sorjek make his legendary reincarnation a cone shape blasting warlock with faltering blast and force and fire damage,some times and a chain blasting confusion procking evil and acid damage other times. And just to be different a rare chance for a ravager barbarian/enlightened spirit incarnation with self healing hits and temp hp aura 2x his con and big armor destruction and fort reduction on hit procs on other occasions.

    Dangerous surprises are at the heart of d&d game play. Predictable sameness while very much the heart of computer gaming is less fun and more limiting in designing challenge.

    The answer to providing challenge by making everything beyond a certain difficulty able to one shot kill players is just death for melee fighting characters. There should as a rule of thumb be nothing that dose over say 1000 base damage from regular monsters. Only certain mobs should have such huge base 2500 or more damage. They could be vulnerable to something like enchantment or death magic or elemental damage to make tactics and team work fun.
    sign me up!!

  15. #15
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    People already finished it EE so the only thing they should consider is amping up EE difficulty a little more at this point. We are really close to release date I assume.

  16. #16
    Community Member Vanhooger's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by XbaileyX View Post
    Please keep in mind this takes both hands and leaves zero room for Legendary GS and Necro items. Which means this number is pretty for a screenshot but not for practical play. If we get spell pen requirement down to the suggested 58 or 60 even it still makes you really work/gear and live for it and gives you the chance for dc's well. I was running 60 spell pen as a drow I was giving up roughly 10 possible Int which is a fair trade off, to hit these current numbers you are looking at giving up another 5int and 6dc items.
    You do the number with a wizard. I as a spellsinger I can't afford to take 3 feat in SR unless I really want to gimp myself. I mean, it's ok to make choice, but this is a bit too high for bard. Some point of SR should be dropped to make bard cc relevant.
    Triple Heroic & Epic completionist. Eroic : 42/42 - Epic : 36/36 - Iconic : 12/12.

  17. #17
    Community Member Holymunchkin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by slarden View Post
    People already finished it EE so the only thing they should consider is amping up EE difficulty a little more at this point. We are really close to release date I assume.
    If it's a question of what's "most important" then people will have varying opinions. I respect the fact that you think it should be uncompletable. What's most important to me is different. So I'll talk about it...

    I have a couple guildies that will refuse to run one-shot raids on LE, so I probably won't get to run with them on LE. They are excellent players. It's just that they prefer melee toons. So if you're asking what's most important to me---it's having a shot at the highest difficulty under "fair conditions."
    Whatever my community feels are "fair conditions." DDO raiding is a team experience.
    I can't ask my fellow guild members and extended sneak-humper family to reroll into ranged toons just because mobs were made difficult in a simple fashion.
    This was the same problem with DOJ. I had to tell casters they weren't allowed on elite. Isn't that nice of me?
    So. No. Give us raids that encourage class diversity and "smart" difficulty!
    My above proposal does that---it is a smattering ideas from people who were running LE on lamma.
    Last edited by Holymunchkin; 12-14-2015 at 12:23 PM.

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vanhooger View Post
    You do the number with a wizard. I as a spellsinger I can't afford to take 3 feat in SR unless I really want to gimp myself. I mean, it's ok to make choice, but this is a bit too high for bard. Some point of SR should be dropped to make bard cc relevant.
    The thing that makes it hard is they have to decide giving up 4 DC from EA to go into Draconic or 5 spell pen from Draconic to go into EA.

    Devs have been stingy with charisma gear compared to int (spooky bonus, quality int cloak) due largely to arguments that charisma casters had advantages over other casters due to EA, but nobody considers the 5 spell pen you have to give up to go into EA for a Bard.

    Bard has a lot of cc tools including fascinate which comes in very handy for some raids - but probably not so much this one. Also fascinate doesn't eliminate alert so it's only useful situationally.

    Overall I think the best cc is going to be druid anyhow. Nothing can top druid cc at the moment. Wizard makes the most sense for an enchantment specialist and it sounds like enchantment DCs are landing with reasonable #s which is good.

    The way make a bard work is take only one spell focus feat and max out spell pen. Bards have better DC boosts in the enh tree so they can afford to do this, but they are still feat starved.

    Still, they are ahead of warlock on the enchantment DC pecking order because they have slightly better DC potential and access to crushing despair.

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Holymunchkin View Post
    If it's a question of what's "most important" then people will have varying opinions. I respect the fact that you think it should be uncompletable. What's most important to me is different. So I'll talk about it...

    I have a couple guildies that will refuse to run one-shot raids on LE, so I probably won't get to run with them on LE. They are excellent players. It's just that they prefer melee toons. So if you're asking what's most important to me---it's having a shot at the highest difficulty under "fair conditions."
    Whatever my community feels are "fair conditions." DDO raiding is a team experience.
    I can't ask my fellow guild members and extended sneak-humper family to reroll into ranged toons just because mobs were made difficult in a simple fashion.
    This was the same problem with DOJ. I had to tell casters they weren't allowed on elite. Isn't that nice of me?
    So. No. Give us raids that encourage class diversity and "smart" difficulty!
    My above proposal is simple, quick, and dirty.

    1 global buff
    1 global de-buff
    dropping of SR so bards / warlocks can use DCs
    I am of the mindset that if something isn't fun I won't run it. I am not a fan of one-shotting, but if a combination of ranged cc and aoe cc mitigates it - it doesn't seem too bad. The death knights in EE MOD could one-shot most of my characters when the raid was new. The reaver could one-shot me with disintegrate if I failed my save in the old heroic raid.

    EE MOD I only ran 3 times (2 completions, 1 fail) and I won't be running it again as I didn't find it fun. A challenge once - yeah - but fun - no.

    EE FOT I found fun even when new, but also there wasn't as much of a threat as in this raid.

    Bards and Warlocks get less SR in Exalted Angel and DC will be lower in an arcane sphere so yeah they seem sub-optimal for cc casting. If the 73 enchant DC # is right Bards should be fine with crushing despair and mind fog. Warlocks should be ok with +14 charisma item and +7 ins charisma item. They will have to give up some DPS epic feats though to do so. It's fine that wizards are finally having their day in the sun again though with this new raid and changes to archmage slas.

  20. #20
    Community Member Holymunchkin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by slarden View Post
    I am of the mindset that if something isn't fun I won't run it. I am not a fan of one-shotting, but if a combination of ranged cc and aoe cc mitigates it - it doesn't seem too bad.
    So you haven't checked out lamma on live, think one-shotting might not be fun, but are still advocating no adjustment to balance?

    The red named cat in pt2 of shroud is 2 shotting pure paladins with 1600 hp. After they die once, its a one-shot fest. Sounds like fun to be a tank huh? You'll feel like you need to reroll into a ranged toon, or not play the raid because it's not fun.

    You might advocate for making the game fun rather than stupid difficult. The goal of armor up was to ensure melee could participate in higher difficulty because one of the greatest strengths of DDO was its class diversity. Not nerfing this would be going against that. That's why one-shotting is stupid. There's a big difference between "hard" and "stupid" for most people who run EE raids frequently.

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