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  1. #1
    Executive Producer Severlin's Avatar
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    Default Rogue - Mechanic (and Traps) Proposed Changes

    Here are the proposed changes for the Rogue Mechanic tree.

    Trap Update

    Constructed Traps will be have the following changes:

    • The time to set a trap will change to 1 second.
    • The time for a trap to arm after it has been set down will change to one second.
    • The cooldown between setting traps will be changed to 8 seconds.
    • The time traps persist for will be lowered to 60 seconds.
    • New traps for higher levels will be introduced with higher damage. Players will be able to craft traps all the way up to level 27, with an appropriate increase in damage.
    • Trap feedback will be sent to the player who set the trap. This means you will see damage numbers for your traps.

    Note that the DC for elemental traps and spell traps will remain as they are on live, using a percentage of Disable Device and increased by Mechanic and Artificer talents.

    • Grenade DCs will be increased to 10 + (Minimum Required Level * 2) for heroic, and 10 + (Minimum Required Level * 3) for epic levels.
    • New grenades with higher minimum levels and increased damage will be introduced.



    Core Abilities


    • Tanglefoot: Acid Damage scales with 200% Ranged Power. Both DCs are now 10 + Rogue Level + Intelligence Modifier.
    • Improved Detection: You also gain +1 to hit, +1 damage, and 1 extra Sneak Attack die with bows, crossbows and thrown weapons.
    • Expert Builder: You gain a +1 Competence Bonus to Critical Threat Range and Critical Multiplier for bows, crossbows and thrown weapons. Critical Multiplier increases to +2 for great crossbows.
    • Hip Flask: The action boost portion of Hip Flask now also heals you for 10d6 and adds +10 to Dodge and Maximum Dodge when activated. The healing scales with 200% Ranged Power. The Dodge and Maximum Dodge last for 10 seconds.


    Tier One



    • Crossbow Training: Now called Sharpshooter. +1 to hit and damage with all bows, crossbows, and thrown weapons. Non-repeating crossbows increase the damage to +2.
    • Lacerating Shots: The Bleed scales with 200% Ranged Power.
    • Thunderstone: The damage scales with 200% Ranged Power. The DC is now 12/16/20 + Rogue Level + Intelligence bonus.


    Tier Two


    • Crossbow Training: Now called Sharpshooter. +1 to hit and damage with all bows, crossbows, and thrown weapons. Non-repeating crossbows increase the damage to +2.
    • Wand and Scroll Mastery: (1/1/1 AP)


    Tier Three


    • Crossbow Training: Now called Sharpshooter. +1 to hit and damage with all bows, crossbows, and thrown weapons. Non-repeating crossbows increase the damage to +2.
    • Wrack Construct: Damage is increased to 3d6/6d6/9d6. Damage scaled with 200% Ranged Power.
    • Ooze Flask: The DC is increased to 10 + Rogue Level + Intelligence Modifier. Also reduces all types of the target's Damage Resistance by 10/20/30 with no saving throw. Damage now scales by 200% Ranged Power.


    Tier Four


    • Crossbow Training: Now called Sharpshooter. +1 to hit and damage with all bows, crossbows and thrown weapons. Non-repeating crossbows increase the damage to +2.
    • Fletching. You are skilled at enhancing, salvaging and re-purposing your arrows, bolts, and throwing weapons. You gain 10 Ranged Power and your ammunition gains 50%/65%/80% returning chance.
    • Leg Shot: Also does +2/+4/+6[W] damage.


    Tier Five


    • Sharpshooter: +3 to hit and damage with all bows, crossbows, and thrown weapons. Non-repeating crossbows increase the damage to +6.
    • Mechanical Reloader: You reload repeating crossbows 20% faster, draw thrown weapons 20% faster, and reload non-repeating crossbows 40% faster.
    • Time Bomb: Cooldown is now 20 seconds. Time to set the bomb is now very fast. Time before exploding is now 2 seconds. Saving Throw to negate knockdown now uses your Disable Device skill as the DC.
    • Sniper: (2 AP): You gain 1 extra sneak attack die with bows, crossbows and thrown weapons. Non-repeating crossbows increase this to 2 sneak attack dice and also gain +1[W]. Great crossbows now Vorpal on a 19-20.


    Sev~
    Last edited by Severlin; 03-13-2015 at 01:47 PM.

  2. #2
    Community Member burningwind's Avatar
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    you need to add epic level into the equation to make them epic viable. since monster save rise dramatically in epic~~

    my propose is original dc + (epic level *2). so epic level and heroic level weight 50% 50%.

    for example:

    Thunderstone DC: 12/16/20 + Rogue Level + (epic level * 2) + Intelligence bonus.

    so when level 30 introduce we will be look at around 60+ int mod, which make it useful in epic elite.

    p.s. you should do the same for any other tree you are revamping. because most of the heoric stuff are useless in epic. and if you think epic equipment will make up the dc, you are wrong. it is the sole reason why assassinate is not popular. and please stop making super op equipment, it really kills the game. from 1~20 we only get 5 stats point, and you introduce +6 stats tome. serious? all you are doing is make character development worthless. that is why there are so many trap build with only one or two rogue level. because it is all about gear and not really about class ability.

    edit: by making all ability gear dependent, basically you are telling people. you are complete useless until you reach level XX and farm OO, otherwise none of your ability make any sense. also if you don't scale epic level, you are discouraging people from multiclass.. if you scale epic level people can multiclass and still get these useful.
    Last edited by burningwind; 03-13-2015 at 01:20 PM.

  3. #3
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    Thank you, for updating traps levels and reducing times to set.
    I appreciate that very much.

    It seems you folks have answered past/future most all of my wish list.


    You renaming sharpshooting. Is this a "stacks with everything buff?" I assume so since it seems untyped bonus?

    I love the expansion of sharpshooting into all ranged weapons and the increase of damage with great Xbows. This will allow a greater variety in building.

    Thank you for scaling into epics via melee power.

    I'll leave the precise number theory to others, but overall bird's eye view looking nice to me.

  4. #4
    Community Member HatsuharuZ's Avatar
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    I like these changes, however the viability of ranged power scaling depends on how much you put in, so I can't comment on that.

    There are 2 changes I'd like to see that would benefit repeater rogues, along with all crossbow and/or ranged users:

    1) Increase the size of ammunition stacks that drop as random loot. 20 ammo per drop is not sufficient, especially since the magical ammo with the extra elemental damage can only be found in random drops and sometimes on the AH, making it hard to find the element one wants.

    2) Please make the crossbow firing and reloading animations into a *single* animation that only requires one click, same as the bow animation.

  5. #5
    Community Member depositbox's Avatar
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    Looks good. Can see some actual builds using the tree.

  6. #6
    Community Member Myrddinman's Avatar
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    At first glance, this looks like a decent start. For ease of comparison, would it be possible to present the entire tree with the changes in bold or different color. This way we won't have to keep going back and forth to the DDO Wiki (as awesome as it is) to reference the changes. I think it would create a more complete picture.

    I appreciate the nudge to Great Crossbows...are there any plans to introduce more named ones, since there is only one (Oladren's) besides the crafted ones?

    I am really looking forward to the discussions
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  7. #7
    Cosmetic Guru Aelonwy's Avatar
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    Wow. Now I'm definitely debating whether I should keep my arty pure. Mmmmm hard choices.
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  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by burningwind View Post
    you need to add epic level into the equation to make them epic viable. since monster save rise dramatically in epic~~.
    A strong valid point which needs to be address.
    I mean really the CR of Monsters in the game is going thru the roof, I expect to see CR 100 monsters on EE level cap which makes dispel magic/spell reistance/turn undead/possible trap DC/etc difficult to program.

    [i]Why are the CRs going out of control anyway???


    Personally, I would like to see Epic Destinies increased to level 10.
    {Using either my hybrid plan or the scaling plan or whatever.}

    Then you need to apply ED levels to more than caster levels.
    For example Shadowdancer should add its ED levels to the equation.
    So you could have Rogue Levels + Epic Levels + Shadowdancer Levels ?

    A druid's pet could have Druid Levels + Epic Levels + Primal Avatar Levels {of course then everyone needs to not use Summer Smoke which bugs out pet collars}.

  9. #9
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    Thanks for updating Tanglefoot and Thunderstone to have workable DCs and to be functional (one of them was broken).

    This gives some CC options to all rogues, which was one of the glaring weak suits of the class when these features were bugged.

    I can't sing the praises of heal scrolls once you hit Epic but the 1/1/1 AP cost will at least make using it as a fallback option affordable...the dev team might want to consider addressing (not saying OPing) one big problem that still remains. Damage taken in EH and EE will sabotage any chance to use heal scrolls since Concentration ranks aren't in line with the inflation on damage in the game. *Of course, one can always jump out of a fight, gear swap, click gear swap again if it doesn't take, UMD the scroll if you aren't being chased and whacked on, switch back to your weapon, then reenter the fight...but this really isn't an efficient way to heal or maintain DPS.
    Last edited by dualscissors; 03-13-2015 at 01:25 PM.

  10. #10
    The Hatchery Mryal's Avatar
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    Wow ,big changes.Im not comenting on traps since i have no experience on them.

    Thunderstone and tanglefoot - Those are interesting, damage would sill be pretty poor on epics, usualy shooting an assorted ranged weapon would do more, i get that they can be used for CC thought.But i have a suggestion : Make them have no animation, but block them from beign used if charging a rune arm.The idea is if youre using a crossbow/great crossbow, people never get to experience the capstone of mechanic really, 2 arti is needed for rune arm use, not having a rune arm is too huge a loss.Allowing these to be used as a sort of replacement for rune arm shots would be great!

    I love the versatility in the tree.The bonuses in great crossbow might make it viable, i have to say im eager to actualy try that on lamania.In fact a lot of this requires lamania testing for proper feedback.Its interesting to think that we might finaly have a viable ranged character that isnt tied to shooting multiple projectiles at once and can make full use of doubleshot.But at the same time the tree also mantains bonuses to other weapons making it still be good for splashing as it is now.

    DCs of 10+rogue level+int are still low i'd say thought, consider adding some form of epic lvls in the process.Youre mostly sitting at at least -2 DC from splashing 2 arti with this alredy.

    Sev, you mentioned 3rd arti tree and arti EDs and ranged pass, this tree mentions ranged power.Can we have an input on what else will come on this update? arti trees revamp? just the 3rd tree? ED? No trees at all for arti?
    Give every person a gun and the richest man is the one that sells crutches

  11. #11
    The Hatchery Mryal's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dualscissors View Post

    I can't sing the praises of heal scrolls once you hit Epic but the 1/1/1 AP cost will at least make using it as a fallback option affordable...the dev team might want to consider addressing (not saying OPing) one big problem that still remains. Damage taken in EH and EE will sabotage any chance to use heal scrolls since Concentration ranks aren't in line with the inflation on damage in the game. *Of course, one can always jump out of a fight, gear swap, click gear swap again if it doesn't take, UMD the scroll if you aren't being chased and whacked on, switch back to your weapon, then reenter the fight...but this really isn't an efficient way to heal or maintain DPS.
    Theres no fixing this one.I still say, complete removal of concentration checks on DDO is the only way.The system isnt meant for the reality we have.
    Give every person a gun and the richest man is the one that sells crutches

  12. #12
    Community Member Grailhawk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Severlin View Post

    Tier Five


    • Time Bomb: Cooldown is now 20 seconds. Time to set the bomb is now very fast. Time before exploding is now 2 seconds. Saving Throw to negate knockdown now uses your Disarm Traps skill as the DC.
    Disarm Traps Skill = Disable Devices?

  13. #13
    Executive Producer Severlin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grailhawk View Post
    Disarm Traps Skill = Disable Devices?
    Yes. I'll fix the OP.

    Sev~

  14. #14
    Community Member Oxarhamar's Avatar
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    Looks solid.

    I'll be looking forward to trying an all new Full time Repeater build when Lamania opens.

    Let's hope these changes don't see too much nerfbat before then & live even.

  15. #15
    Self-Appointed Coin Lord of the Seas ForgettableNPC's Avatar
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    I am all for this, I ran a Rogue with my patented Rogue Mechanic Treasure Hunter build and the Deadly Traps did a fair amount of damage on Heroics, even if it was only 50d6 damage per trap (One problem, you couldn't see the exact damage it dealt pop up, good thing that's getting fixed). I loved to charge into enemies, set down a fire trap while I dodged them, and let it explode and keep shooting my Repeating Crossbow.

    Please fix Thunderstone Daze effect. It doesn't actually Daze anything even if the effect shows up on enemies.

    Love the returning chance on ranged weapons, I was getting tired of buying stacks of Sturdy Deneith Bolts whenever I quested and keep running out during certain long quests (Speaking of which, will the Fletching Enhancement stack with innate Returning chance on Sturdy Bolts?)

    Time Bomb: No complaints. More Explosions means a happier ForgettableNPC. Though a 1000 Fire and Sonic damage for every 20 seconds MIGHT be a bit too unbalanced, in my opinion...damage might need to be rescaled a little? Not sure.

    Shame nothing's there for Doubleshot chances, though (Unless if that one's being kept and just not being changed in the slightest). And there's only one Enhancement that gives Ranged Power. Hopefully there's other sources to get Ranged Power from, such as Range-related Feats.
    Last edited by ForgettableNPC; 03-13-2015 at 01:54 PM.
    Just a random, forgettable NPC doing things an NPC does
    Things that NPCs do include, but are not limited to:

    Having a gold goblet over my head to indicate availability of a quest
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    Repeating the same lines over and over again

  16. #16
    Community Member FlaviusMaximus's Avatar
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    Initial post removed.

    This is a hard tree to comment on without doing testing.
    Last edited by FlaviusMaximus; 03-13-2015 at 05:47 PM.

  17. #17
    Community Member Caprice's Avatar
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    My first impression is that this looks rather nice and I'll consider playing one. And this time a Paladin 14 doesn't actually "do it better" than a mostly Rogue build, which makes me very happy. Thank you for that.

    Are you also adding bows to the Targeting Sights core or is it staying with Crossbows and Thrown only? I'm guessing you are and it was a simple oversight but I want to be sure for planning out a build.

    Quote Originally Posted by Severlin View Post
    Note that the DC for elemental traps and spell traps will remain as they are on live, using a percentage of Disable Device and increased by Mechanic and Artificer talents.
    Off topic, but does that mean that there are actually plans to give Artificers trap enhancements other than the +3 skills from Field Engineer? Or is it still in some version of "Soon (tm)"? You've made me regret not splashing Rogue on my Artificer (in the short term).
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  18. #18
    Community Member Lauf's Avatar
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    Rogue mechanic is the only ranged class that can't create arrows/bolts. from my time as an artificer I remember needing ~3-4k bolts before starting a quest.
    assuming 80% returning, this puts the rogue mechanic at 800 bolts per quest. with quivers usually not holding more than 1k stacks, this means a mechanic has a lot of back and forth running between quests to shop for more, not to mention the likelihood of running out mid-quest at some point or another, rendering himself mostly useless.
    I realize making all the mechanic's ammo 100% returning poses a ton of other problems, but surely giving them a spell like ability of creating a stack of standard non-magical arrows or bolts (multi-selector) would work well with the class being a mechanic...
    and if you can create a stack, and it is then 80% returning, then you're sitting pretty.

  19. #19
    The Hatchery Mryal's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lauf View Post
    Rogue mechanic is the only ranged class that can't create arrows/bolts. from my time as an artificer I remember needing ~3-4k bolts before starting a quest.
    assuming 80% returning, this puts the rogue mechanic at 800 bolts per quest. with quivers usually not holding more than 1k stacks, this means a mechanic has a lot of back and forth running between quests to shop for more, not to mention the likelihood of running out mid-quest at some point or another, rendering himself mostly useless.
    I realize making all the mechanic's ammo 100% returning poses a ton of other problems, but surely giving them a spell like ability of creating a stack of standard non-magical arrows or bolts (multi-selector) would work well with the class being a mechanic...
    and if you can create a stack, and it is then 80% returning, then you're sitting pretty.
    You can umd conjure bolts scrolls for ammo, creates a stack of 1000 now, recent update changed.
    80% returning is way better than having a way to create your own ammo, at the very least it enables the use of Flame Arrow scrolls wich is alredy better than a crafted plain ammo with no bonuses, but on the long run it also makes room for actualy using all that <insert random bonuses here> ammo you drop and never use, additionaly theres also cannith crafting for ammo.
    Give every person a gun and the richest man is the one that sells crutches

  20. #20
    Community Member Bolo_Grubb's Avatar
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    Makes me think I make change the level splits on my Rogue/arti/ranger. Maybe even go 18 rogue/2 arti (Gotta have rune arm use)
    Kill'em all and let their favorite deity sort'em out
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