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Thread: Raids overhaul

  1. #1
    Community Member crazycaren's Avatar
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    Default Raids overhaul

    Hi
    I like raids. I think they are a fun part of the game where typically a larger number of people and complementary classes have to cooperate and work together. (Titan not withstanding).

    Here's the problem as I see it: a new raid comes out, it is run continuously for 2-3 weeks, frequency drops off steeply and when higher level raids come out runs drop to rare. Heroic raid LFMs other than shroud and von 5 seem to be non-existent on Khyber. The consequences I have seen are:
    1. the people who play a lot generally run 2 or 3 characters instead of the 5-25 they used to run (yes I know exceptions to this, hence the 'generally' qualifier),
    2. the people come and go from the game (i.e. the vast majority) have a hard time getting raid loot or raid-based crafting ingredients,
    3. new people can't get raid gear from most of the raids in the game, and
    4. people who enjoy raids just for variety don't get to play them much (even when they offer to lead them).

    Here are some ideas to increase the longevity of raids. Please keep the replies on point.

    General suggestions
    - Double XP in heroic raids except Von 5. This would give more incentive for vets to run these raids even though they don't need the gear, helping out newer players who need the gear/ingredients. Alternatively you could change the way power-leveling works in raids so a broader group of toons could run together but that's much more complicated.
    - For raids in slayer areas add teleporters, e.g. as done for Caught in the Web or Tower of Despair. Maybe people would actually run VOD again!
    - Add raid gear & ingredients to end reward lists. It's the end reward for the raid, why shouldn't everything be in the loot table? It has never made sense to me that the gear only shows up on your 20th run. The addition of shroud ingredients to the end reward table was very nice.
    - Make the effort:reward ratio more consistent between different raids around the same level.

    Specific suggestions
    - Ascension Chamber (heroic abbot) - dramatically simplify flagging.
    - TOD - Reduce the flagging requirement to one quest.
    - Demon Queen - Reduce the flagging requirement to one quest.
    - The Lord of Blades - Reduce the flagging requirement to one quest, increase the drop rate of all binding fragments.
    - CiTW - double the XP and guarantee 1 Comm of Heroism on normal, 2 on hard and 3 on elite with chance of more. This suggestion is due to the dramatically different effort:reward ratio between CiTW and FoT.
    - Fire on Dragon Peak - as others have mentioned previously, the phlog drop rate is too low.
    - Temple of Deathwyrm - double the XP and guarantee 1 phlog on normal, 2 on hard and 3 on elite with chance of more. This suggestion is due to the dramatically different effort:reward ratio between Deathwyrm and Fire Dragons.
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  2. #2
    Community Member Sehenry03's Avatar
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    I think XP should be bumped up HUGE for raids. HUGE. They should ALWAYS give more xp then any other quest in the level range. As long as the time to complete os comparable though. MoD should not give massive xp since it is such a short raid.

    Flagging is fine for the raids I think. If you want the good xp its not hard to flag for any raids. Abbott is a little harder getting sigils but even it is pretty easy.

    Fix workarounds on quests. HoX should not be soloable with 1 easy to get ED.

    I don't think unique items should be in the regular completion reward list...but I do think they need to bump up drop rates significantly from end chest.

    I agree on the xp though bump it up a LOT to make people want to run the raid for completion.

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  3. #3

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    Good points in this thread. I'll also add that to also increase longevity of new raids there should be a limit to how many raid timers a toon can use each day.
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  4. #4
    Community Member Sehenry03's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ladywolf View Post
    Good points in this thread. I'll also add that to also increase longevity of new raids there should be a limit to how many raid timers a toon can use each day.
    I agree with this in sentiment.

    The problem is people bought raid timers from the DDO store with real money under the understanding there was no limit to which raid or how many times it could be ran. NO ONE has a right to take that away from people who paid real money for it. I understand there are lots of duped timers out there which sucks...but I would rather deal with that then tell those people who buy from the store that they were lied to.

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  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sehenry03 View Post
    I agree with this in sentiment.

    The problem is people bought raid timers from the DDO store with real money under the understanding there was no limit to which raid or how many times it could be ran. NO ONE has a right to take that away from people who paid real money for it. I understand there are lots of duped timers out there which sucks...but I would rather deal with that then tell those people who buy from the store that they were lied to.
    There's always the option of replacing newly bought (and perhaps current non purchased timers) wil a new style that has a built in weekly limit

    I also think they should add mysterious remnants to raid chests. Maybe something along the line of 1d10 or 1d20 per level of the raid. Something easy but a relevant difference between "difficulty"
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  6. #6
    Community Member UurlockYgmeov's Avatar
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    This happens with all new content -


    1. WOW its new!
    2. run it to death
    3. ad infineum
    4. ad nauseam
    5. time passes
    6. some more people flag - or old ones reflag on new life
    7. WOW! run it to death
    8. repeat steps 5-8



    I do however support the following changes:

    a. raids do not affect bravery bonuses / and bravery bonuses do not affect raids.
    b. raid completions survive ALL reincarnations.

    Quote Originally Posted by pjstechie View Post
    There's always the option of replacing newly bought (and perhaps current non purchased timers) wil a new style that has a built in weekly limit

    I also think they should add mysterious remnants to raid chests. Maybe something along the line of 1d10 or 1d20 per level of the raid. Something easy but a relevant difference between "difficulty"
    Disagree on timers. Leave these be. I do not tell you how to play, and therefor you shouldn't tell others how they should play. Play and let play.

    Do agree on Deity Dung in Raid chests - it should be the motherpile of Deity Dung!
    Last edited by UurlockYgmeov; 02-21-2015 at 02:07 PM. Reason: my kobold powered spell checker is on Union Break and his lunch box turned out to be a mimic. Now he's mimic bait!

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by UurlockYgmeov View Post
    I do however support the following changes:

    a. raids do not affect bravery bonuses / and bravery bonuses do not affect raids.
    b. raid completions survive ALL reincarnations.



    Disagree on timers. Leave these be. I do not tell you how to play, and therefor you shouldn't tell others how they should play. Play and let play.

    Do agree on Deity Dung in Raid chests - it should be the motherpile of Deity Dung!
    Those suggestions would also probably help though then there's a bit of a question regarding Von 5 and tempest spine at least, but there is a precedent for a quest being exempt from bravery streaks: Devils assault. So it could potentially (and probably would need to be coded as) a case by case basis.

    Raid bypasses are a tricky thing - they definitely contribute to the first generation of Raiders playing through the raids so fast the second generation is ready to learn from them creating a major disconnect with the life of a raid.

    Having said that, if players had a reason to rerun a raid besides raid loot I think that wouldn't be as big of a problem. That's more where I personally land, my comment was more of a compromise suggestion towards the 2 previous points in the thread - though honestly I'm mostly indifferent since it wouldn't affect my game play much if it all.

    Diety dung...nice name
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  8. #8
    Community Member Sehenry03's Avatar
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    I think a HUGE boost to xp would be a big step forward.

    Give people who don't need loot to still run it. People who do need loot might get more rolls on items the first group don't need.

    I know my guild would run more raids if the xp was worth it as a lot of us are getting our ED xp on alts and such. ADQ/VoN excluded since the preraid already gives good xp. But Abbott/FoT/Reaver/Titan/VoD/Hound...all could be brought back to life if they would give us enough incentive to run them for xp. The lower ones like VoD/HoX would still be ran by people who TR if xp was worth it. Neither one takes a long time and it could revive those raids.

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  9. #9
    Community Member FranOhmsford's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sehenry03 View Post
    I think a HUGE boost to xp would be a big step forward.

    Give people who don't need loot to still run it. People who do need loot might get more rolls on items the first group don't need.

    I know my guild would run more raids if the xp was worth it as a lot of us are getting our ED xp on alts and such. ADQ/VoN excluded since the preraid already gives good xp. But Abbott/FoT/Reaver/Titan/VoD/Hound...all could be brought back to life if they would give us enough incentive to run them for xp. The lower ones like VoD/HoX would still be ran by people who TR if xp was worth it. Neither one takes a long time and it could revive those raids.
    No matter how good the XP is for ADQ2 no-one will run it on Heroic!
    ADQ1 is the Problem!

    Reaver won't get Pugged for XP no matter how good the XP is as anyone capable of doing so will just solo it!

    Titan will continue to suffer from the lack of players willing to flag for it at level!


    Raids should be treated differently to quests when it comes to the level differential and over-level xp penalties if you want to get people to run them.

    A definite yes to making them exempt from BB!
    Instead remove the XP Penalties for running them up to 3 levels above BB level - So ADQ2 gives full XP for anyone of Lvl 17 down.
    And change the level range for full XP to 5 levels - So ADQ2 gives full XP to everyone of Lvl 12-17 in the Party!
    Oh and of course upgrade the Base XP to BB levels!

    This way:

    Heroic Chronoscope has a Lvl Range of 6-11 for Full XP.
    Tempest Spine and VoN 5/6 have a Lvl Range of 10-15 for Full XP.
    Titan/Twilight Forge have a Lvl Range of 11-16 for Full XP.
    ADQ2 has a Lvl Range of 12-17 for Full XP.
    Reaver's Fate has a Lvl Range of 14-19 for Full XP.
    Abbot and Shroud have Lvl Ranges of 17-22 for Full XP.
    VoD and HoX have Lvl Ranges of 18-23 for Full XP. {Actually I think these do already count as Epic Level Ranges on Elite.}.

    And you could still run them on lower level characters for Full XP but you'd have to max the highest level allowed in your group at 5 levels above yours.
    So for Heroic Chrono that could be 4-9
    and for ADQ2 it could be 10-15.
    Last edited by FranOhmsford; 02-21-2015 at 04:47 PM.

  10. #10
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    Raids are the most fun part of this game for me. Always have been. The main problem I see with raids now is that you're lucky to get 1 piece of loot on a full 12 man. Back in the day, we used to clear Von6 with 5-6 people at level 10 cap and get two pieces of loot no matter what. It certainly wasn't easy, but raids used to be challenging and rewarding. Now raids are a joke; we walk in, tell the dragons to drop dead, and they do.

    Here's my suggestion:

    Raid crafting ingredients and raid loot are two different things.

    On Normal mode, you aren't guaranteed a darn thing, luck of the draw.
    On Hard mode, guaranteed one piece of named raid loot per party, and two crafting ingredients (phlogs, comms, etc.) per party. Regardless of how many people are in the party. Larger party = chance of larger loot
    On Elite mode, guaranteed two pieces of named raid loot per party, and three crafting ingredients (phlogs, comms, etc.) per party. Regardless of how many people are in the party. Larger party = chance of larger loot

    DDO has relatively low population as a game, in order to keep people entertained, we need loot. Waiting for 12 people every time I want to raid, just so we have a small chance at getting loot is one of the main things that irritates me about this game.

  11. #11
    Community Member IronClan's Avatar
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    I like the suggestions, however I would add to this revamp: a full raid loot polish pass to give the loot upgrade tiers that work with either coms of heroism, GS crafting ings or thunderforge ings, and have whichever of those upgrades the loot in that raid, also drop in that raid. So you give Seven Fingered gloves two upgrades, and make comms drop in Titan at your proposed 1 2 3 minimum (possibly more) this widens out endgame, refreshes interest is older raids loot as well as XP.

  12. #12
    Community Member FestusHood's Avatar
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    I've always thought the best way to extend the replayability of any content is to give it a valuable consumable. Something that needs reacquiring. That way you are never permanently done with it.

    Lots of ways this could be done for raids.

    Just add different and exclusively available consumable widgets to each individual raid.

    Add tokens (or use existing ones) to purchase said widgets from a master list.

    Make exclusive and distinct tokens for each raid, and require having all, or a large majority of them to assemble the widget from the master list.

    You could even create new master loot, rather than revamping all of the existing raid loot.

    Another idea might be tying them into remnants in some way as PJ mentioned above. That way they could just continue to work on the remnant reward list. Make raids drop remnants as end rewards. Not small amounts though. It would have to be a large enough amount that it was preferable to just getting them from quests.

  13. #13
    Community Member arkonas's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by crazycaren View Post
    Hi
    I like raids. I think they are a fun part of the game where typically a larger number of people and complementary classes have to cooperate and work together. (Titan not withstanding).

    Here's the problem as I see it: a new raid comes out, it is run continuously for 2-3 weeks, frequency drops off steeply and when higher level raids come out runs drop to rare. Heroic raid LFMs other than shroud and von 5 seem to be non-existent on Khyber. The consequences I have seen are:
    1. the people who play a lot generally run 2 or 3 characters instead of the 5-25 they used to run (yes I know exceptions to this, hence the 'generally' qualifier),
    2. the people come and go from the game (i.e. the vast majority) have a hard time getting raid loot or raid-based crafting ingredients,
    3. new people can't get raid gear from most of the raids in the game, and
    4. people who enjoy raids just for variety don't get to play them much (even when they offer to lead them).

    Here are some ideas to increase the longevity of raids. Please keep the replies on point.

    General suggestions
    - Double XP in heroic raids except Von 5. This would give more incentive for vets to run these raids even though they don't need the gear, helping out newer players who need the gear/ingredients. Alternatively you could change the way power-leveling works in raids so a broader group of toons could run together but that's much more complicated.
    - For raids in slayer areas add teleporters, e.g. as done for Caught in the Web or Tower of Despair. Maybe people would actually run VOD again!
    - Add raid gear & ingredients to end reward lists. It's the end reward for the raid, why shouldn't everything be in the loot table? It has never made sense to me that the gear only shows up on your 20th run. The addition of shroud ingredients to the end reward table was very nice.
    - Make the effort:reward ratio more consistent between different raids around the same level.

    Specific suggestions
    - Ascension Chamber (heroic abbot) - dramatically simplify flagging.
    - TOD - Reduce the flagging requirement to one quest.
    - Demon Queen - Reduce the flagging requirement to one quest.
    - The Lord of Blades - Reduce the flagging requirement to one quest, increase the drop rate of all binding fragments.
    - CiTW - double the XP and guarantee 1 Comm of Heroism on normal, 2 on hard and 3 on elite with chance of more. This suggestion is due to the dramatically different effort:reward ratio between CiTW and FoT.
    - Fire on Dragon Peak - as others have mentioned previously, the phlog drop rate is too low.
    - Temple of Deathwyrm - double the XP and guarantee 1 phlog on normal, 2 on hard and 3 on elite with chance of more. This suggestion is due to the dramatically different effort:reward ratio between Deathwyrm and Fire Dragons.

    i would be ok if they would go back to the heroic raids and slowly give them an epic counter part. Come on we all want an epic tempest spine. People would run it. reason i say this is there is some very awesome raids back when cap was 20. if they were to give us something like that at 30. i think we would all be happy. we had 8 raids, tring and epics to tie us over. since then only 4 raids. and we all know how some feel about some of them. people gave good things to do to citw like give it comms. i thought commendations of heroism would be the raid currency. it should be added to everything imo. this was a great idea they should not abandon. please keep to the idea and add it to thunderholme raids as well. same as fot. this would give people reasons to run it.

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