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  1. #21
    Community Member BigErkyKid's Avatar
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    12 ranger / 8 rogue is better dps ????

    You lose around 5sneak attack dice but gain an enormous difference in Crit profiles. From 18:20x3 to 14/20x3. You can keep all your side rotations anyway and do moar dps.

    Saves are for weaklings anyway, so screw 2 paladin. Besides you can then focus on dexterity to damage and do way more dps via higher hide skill. That while keeping nice reflex saves.


    So ditch the paladin go full glass cannon and the bestamest dps! Except that it isn't but it is nevertheless good and a very nice concept to use the dodge rotations.

  2. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by BigErkyKid View Post
    12 ranger / 8 rogue is better dps ????

    You lose around 5sneak attack dice but gain an enormous difference in Crit profiles. From 18:20x3 to 14/20x3. You can keep all your side rotations anyway and do moar dps.

    Saves are for weaklings anyway, so screw 2 paladin. Besides you can then focus on dexterity to damage and do way more dps via higher hide skill. That while keeping nice reflex saves.


    So ditch the paladin go full glass cannon and the bestamest dps! Except that it isn't but it is nevertheless good and a very nice concept to use the dodge rotations.
    hmm....but i use warhammer so i cannot go dex, dex to dmg is for light weapon, and u say "From 18:20x3 to 14/20x3", how is possible ? advance sneak attack gives +1 Sneak Attack Die. +10 Positive Spell Power. You gain a +1 Competence Bonus to Critical Threat Range<- with this be 14-20 ? Your attacks now bypass 10% fortification. <- this is nice like opportunist. so i don't understand how 12 ranger gives 14-20 from 18-20 on WHammer

  3. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eryhn View Post
    yes, yes, i know it gets nice numbers

    but pwetty plz, share your enhancement split on the 2 pally version?

    im doing the build with 13/6/1 on a shadarkai atm, so far, from 14-16 great fun, but will have to wait till epics to see how goes. i might eventually wanna do human with 2 pally and there's a lot of ways to shift enhancements, so show the enhancement numbers "behind" your numbers, ya? XD
    catch me on Cannith ;]

  4. #24
    Community Member Grailhawk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by levy1964 View Post
    hmm....but i use warhammer so i cannot go dex, dex to dmg is for light weapon, and u say "From 18:20x3 to 14/20x3", how is possible ? advance sneak attack gives +1 Sneak Attack Die. +10 Positive Spell Power. You gain a +1 Competence Bonus to Critical Threat Range<- with this be 14-20 ? Your attacks now bypass 10% fortification. <- this is nice like opportunist. so i don't understand how 12 ranger gives 14-20 from 18-20 on WHammer
    Deflect Arrows in Tempest (core level 12). Here are the crit profiles for a 12 Ranger.

    Warhammer
    20/3 Base
    19-20/x3 Improved Critical
    18-20/x3 Advanced Sneak Attack
    17-20/x3 Pulverizer
    17-20/x4 Deflect Arrows
    17-18/x4 19-20/x5 Overwhelming Critical
    17-18/x4 19-20/x6 Devastating Critical
    1.75 crit power 0.75 + 0.10(4) + 0.10(6)

    Scimitar/Rapier
    18-20/x2 Base
    15-20/x2 Improved Critical
    14-20/x2 Advanced Sneak Attack
    14-20/x3 Deflect Arrows
    14-18/x3 19-20/x4 Overwhelming Critical
    14-18/x3 19-20/x5 Devastating Critical
    1.75 crit power 0.60 + 0.25(3) + 0.10(4)

    Khopesh
    19-20/x3 Base
    17-20/x3 Improved Critical
    16-20/x3 Advanced Sneak Attack
    16-20/x4 Deflect Arrows
    16-18/x4 19-20/x5 Overwhelming Critical
    16-18/x4 19-20/x6 Devastating Critical
    1.90 crit power 0.70 + 0.15(4) + 0.10(6)

  5. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grailhawk View Post
    Deflect Arrows in Tempest (core level 12). Here are the crit profiles for a 12 Ranger.

    Warhammer
    20/3 Base
    19-20/x3 Improved Critical
    18-20/x3 Advanced Sneak Attack
    17-20/x3 Pulverizer
    17-20/x4 Deflect Arrows
    17-18/x4 19-20/x5 Overwhelming Critical
    17-18/x4 19-20/x6 Devastating Critical
    1.75 crit power 0.75 + 0.10(4) + 0.10(6)

    Scimitar/Rapier
    18-20/x2 Base
    15-20/x2 Improved Critical
    14-20/x2 Advanced Sneak Attack
    14-20/x3 Deflect Arrows
    14-18/x3 19-20/x4 Overwhelming Critical
    14-18/x3 19-20/x5 Devastating Critical
    1.75 crit power 0.60 + 0.25(3) + 0.10(4)

    Khopesh
    19-20/x3 Base
    17-20/x3 Improved Critical
    16-20/x3 Advanced Sneak Attack
    16-20/x4 Deflect Arrows
    16-18/x4 19-20/x5 Overwhelming Critical
    16-18/x4 19-20/x6 Devastating Critical
    1.90 crit power 0.70 + 0.15(4) + 0.10(6)
    great xD its a math....ok so what weapon win from this calc ?
    btw u miss one think is this match....12 ranger gives better thret range from deepwood, nice....but assasin tree gives boost to whole party (moar crit for all) and execute, what i mastering atm.....4 mobs to apply execute ~4kx3=~12k per 1 mob, with DoD is ~36k dmg....i can clean alone a side (South) EH Doj.....SE/SW/reinforcment, alone :P....this math cannot add this to calc....this is execute power buahahahahah

  6. #26
    Community Member Grailhawk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by levy1964 View Post
    great xD its a math....ok so what weapon win from this calc ?
    btw u miss one think is this match....12 ranger gives better thret range from deepwood, nice....but assasin tree gives boost to whole party (moar crit for all) and execute, what i mastering atm.....4 mobs to apply execute ~4kx3=~12k per 1 mob, with DoD is ~36k dmg....i can clean alone a side (South) EH Doj.....SE/SW/reinforcment, alone :P....this math cannot add this to calc....this is execute power buahahahahah
    Khopesh is best 1.90 crit power. Warhammer = Scimitar/Rapier 1.75 crit power.

    Execute <= Merciful Strike (wiki says merciful strike procs 500 damage at 50% where as execute has to wait till 30%).

    If you want an enhancement in Ranger that will lower a targets Fortitude you need to go to Mark of the Hunter which is at core 18 in Stalker.

    You used math to model whet execute+DoD looks like, math can be used to model the damage it adds.

    I think you think the numbers in the other post are some kind of DPS comparison they are not I'm just posting crit profile, I know English is not your first language so maybe that's just getting messed up in the translation.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Grailhawk View Post
    Khopesh is best 1.90 crit power. Warhammer = Scimitar/Rapier 1.75 crit power.

    Execute <= Merciful Strike (wiki says merciful strike procs 500 damage at 50% where as execute has to wait till 30%).

    If you want an enhancement in Ranger that will lower a targets Fortitude you need to go to Mark of the Hunter which is at core 18 in Stalker.

    You used math to model whet execute+DoD looks like, math can be used to model the damage it adds.

    I think you think the numbers in the other post are some kind of DPS comparison they are not I'm just posting crit profile, I know English is not your first language so maybe that's just getting messed up in the translation.
    heh....Execute: Melee Assassinate attack: +3[W] damage. If the target is below 30% health, deal 500 damage. This damage scales with 400% Melee Power......400% of melee power vs Ranged attack: Deals +3[W] damage. On Sneak Attack: If the target is below 50% health, deal 500 damage. This damage scales with 100% Ranged Power (100% melee power).....come on xD 400% vs 100%....all depends about play of style, here is point where math cannot go

    me tweak to know when i'm rdy to use execute, this skill have to big potency so i don't wanna lose him when mob have 31% hp


    btw u say "you think the numbers in the other post are some kind of DPS comparison" u wrong i don't think so crit profile are DPS comparsion, i see how far i'am atm without big crit threat/range...i know ppl atm think moar crit range or better x6 on 20 = better DPS.....now after reroll i see some unique in this build.....dmg not base on crit range or threat, but base on synergy between base dmg and sneak attack, u should be on cannith server, then u understand what i mean ;] chees
    Last edited by levy1964; 06-10-2016 at 05:18 PM.

  8. #28
    Community Member Grailhawk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by levy1964 View Post
    heh....Execute: Melee Assassinate attack: +3[W] damage. If the target is below 30% health, deal 500 damage. This damage scales with 400% Melee Power......400% of melee power vs Ranged attack: Deals +3[W] damage. On Sneak Attack: If the target is below 50% health, deal 500 damage. This damage scales with 100% Ranged Power (100% melee power).....come on xD 400% vs 100%....all depends about play of style, here is point where math cannot go
    Must have glazed over 400% melee power scaling. I was fairly sure Merciful Strike and Execute were the exact same thing.

    Math can go there and tell you whats better hell you used math to say that 400% > 100% lol

  9. #29
    Community Member BigErkyKid's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grailhawk View Post
    Must have glazed over 400% melee power scaling. I was fairly sure Merciful Strike and Execute were the exact same thing.

    Math can go there and tell you whats better hell you used math to say that 400% > 100% lol
    I strongly suspect that by going Dex based with scimies he would actually do MOAR sneak attack damage than with str and 13 rogue. It should be "easy" to check. But even if say is behind, the gains on base damage through crit range are tremendous. It is imho obviously more dps to do 12/8 than the current split.

    I understand that Sanjo requires improved uncanny so I'm capping ranger at 12. It is an interesting concept and the player clearly is experienced with it, so kudos for being original!

    Dex to damage is imo the proper synergy for a sneak attack damage build with ethereal scion.

  10. #30
    Community Member Grailhawk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BigErkyKid View Post
    I strongly suspect that by going Dex based with scimies he would actually do MOAR sneak attack damage than with str and 13 rogue. It should be "easy" to check. But even if say is behind, the gains on base damage through crit range are tremendous. It is imho obviously more dps to do 12/8 than the current split.

    I understand that Sanjo requires improved uncanny so I'm capping ranger at 12. It is an interesting concept and the player clearly is experienced with it, so kudos for being original!

    Dex to damage is imo the proper synergy for a sneak attack damage build with ethereal scion.
    13 Rogue has 7d6 Sneak Attack + the option for 3d6 more from Improved Sneak Attack feat.

    8 Rogue has 4d6 12 Ranger has 1d6 more then 6 Ranger

    So you would need to make up about 5d6 sneak attack damage 17.5 average

    That means you would need a Hide skill 18*3 = 54 higher then the 13/6/1

    Camo cuts that down by 10 so you need 44 I don't think your going to get that. could be wrong.

  11. #31
    Community Member Eryhn's Avatar
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    somebody on argo i dont know has been sending me lv16 warhammers after i mentioned here that i am trying this build. should this have been one of you talking here, that is very kind, but as i had them from previous lives im doing the thing with kopeshs, which is pretty much a wash compared to warhammer + pulverizer - so ill send em back, ty lol

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    Quote Originally Posted by BigErkyKid View Post
    I strongly suspect that by going Dex based with scimies he would actually do MOAR sneak attack damage than with str and 13 rogue. It should be "easy" to check. But even if say is behind, the gains on base damage through crit range are tremendous. It is imho obviously more dps to do 12/8 than the current split.

    I understand that Sanjo requires improved uncanny so I'm capping ranger at 12. It is an interesting concept and the player clearly is experienced with it, so kudos for being original!

    Dex to damage is imo the proper synergy for a sneak attack damage build with ethereal scion.
    i do it for u fast check 12/8...., if u wanna get benefit +1crit/thret and dex to dmg u must lose one of tree, Assasins (assasint trick,Execute,Nimbless [+5mp]) or Harper Tree (+10 dmg and +10 DC on dire). btw i can easly boost STR to 70 = +30dmg....so idk how high Dex u can hit on Dex-base build, but whats win ?.......+1crit/thret and dex to dmg [how high!?] vs Assasin trick,Execute,+5mp,+10dmg KtA [2min], easy +30dmg from STR [70str on 1min]

  13. #33
    Community Member BigErkyKid's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grailhawk View Post
    13 Rogue has 7d6 Sneak Attack + the option for 3d6 more from Improved Sneak Attack feat.

    8 Rogue has 4d6 12 Ranger has 1d6 more then 6 Ranger

    So you would need to make up about 5d6 sneak attack damage 17.5 average

    That means you would need a Hide skill 18*3 = 54 higher then the 13/6/1

    Camo cuts that down by 10 so you need 44 I don't think your going to get that. could be wrong.
    Derp!

    You are right, at most you will get an extra of say +20 Dexterity over str so that's only 10 bonus to hide. This means you are down by around 44/3 so 14 sneak attack.

    Whic is substantial but I don't there is any world in which it makes up for a 4 crit range.

    Plus I can fit Harper kta on a ranger with both crit enhancers from deep wood and tempest, so no I am it losing that. You do lose traps or any point in the assassin tree. But for me execute is just a cute trick.

    You can get working dire charge though on a Dexterity build too.

    An alternative is to give up on the 1 crit range from advance sneak attack and leave the scimitars at 15-20/x3. Then invest whatever you recover from deep wood into the assassin tree.

    Either way I think that without doubt 12 ranger is more powerful than 13 rogue, which only has the extra few SA going.

  14. #34
    Community Member BigErkyKid's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eryhn View Post
    somebody on argo i dont know has been sending me lv16 warhammers after i mentioned here that i am trying this build. should this have been one of you talking here, that is very kind, but as i had them from previous lives im doing the thing with kopeshs, which is pretty much a wash compared to warhammer + pulverizer - so ill send em back, ty lol
    That's cute! I wish I had thought of it lol

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    Quote Originally Posted by BigErkyKid View Post
    Derp!

    You are right, at most you will get an extra of say +20 Dexterity over str so that's only 10 bonus to hide. This means you are down by around 44/3 so 14 sneak attack.

    Whic is substantial but I don't there is any world in which it makes up for a 4 crit range.

    Plus I can fit Harper kta on a ranger with both crit enhancers from deep wood and tempest, so no I am it losing that. You do lose traps or any point in the assassin tree. But for me execute is just a cute trick.

    You can get working dire charge though on a Dexterity build too.

    An alternative is to give up on the 1 crit range from advance sneak attack and leave the scimitars at 15-20/x3. Then invest whatever you recover from deep wood into the assassin tree.

    Either way I think that without doubt 12 ranger is more powerful than 13 rogue, which only has the extra few SA going.
    12/8 have better crit range, thats in truth vs 13/5/2 have lower crit range
    12/8 have lower base dmg and lower SA thats is truth vs 13/5/2 have higher base dmg and higher SA
    12/8 have cannot build faster attack combo vs 13/5/2 can build faster attack Combo (wanna know this sectet technique ? smite evil)
    12/8 have low DPS on undead and construct (your scimitar) vs 13/5/2 have much high DPS on undead and construct (Warhammer)
    12/8 have lower DPS if mob have high fort or on Lengendary diff if have high prr vs 13/5/2 have higher DPS if mob have high fort or high prr
    12/8 can rock on EN/EH content vs 13/5/2 eat u on brekfast

    12/8 are only u "think" vs 13/5/2 was tested on LE content and Tested on EE raid

    13/5/2 do better dmg in EE MoD, EE deathwyrm, EE thunderpeak and LE content
    13/5/2 can eat yet Wolf on dinner. ohh yes i'm killing machine on Boss'es atm
    13/5/2 was base on 7 years experianced in TWF (yes i never play something different, just rogue in many variant)

    12/8 ? are build who does NOT exist vs 13/5/2 exist

    PS. Erhyn if u not take yet fighter lvl and wanna testing 13.6.1....go 13/6/1warlock spend AP for have assasin trick and shiv only, AP for DoD and thousent cut, and move to deepowod for killer and exposing strike. than 1AP in warlock and take arcane warrior feat [+20mp].....i can imagine how this crush 12/8 "think"

  16. #36

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    Quote Originally Posted by BigErkyKid View Post
    12 ranger / 8 rogue is better dps ????

    You lose around 5sneak attack dice but gain an enormous difference in Crit profiles. From 18:20x3 to 14/20x3. You can keep all your side rotations anyway and do moar dps.

    Saves are for weaklings anyway, so screw 2 paladin. Besides you can then focus on dexterity to damage and do way more dps via higher hide skill. That while keeping nice reflex saves.


    So ditch the paladin go full glass cannon and the bestamest dps! Except that it isn't but it is nevertheless good and a very nice concept to use the dodge rotations.
    yes, a couple of us posted earlier in the thread on this split! To make this work you need 4 ranger and improved uncanny dodge so either 8 rogue or 8 barb. Best dps splash would be 12/8 but Maybe 16 barb/4 ranger, or 4 ranger/8 rogue/8 fighter but AP starved
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  17. #37
    Community Member BigErkyKid's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by levy1964 View Post
    12/8 have better crit range, thats in truth vs 13/5/2 have lower crit range
    12/8 have lower base dmg and lower SA thats is truth vs 13/5/2 have higher base dmg and higher SA
    12/8 have cannot build faster attack combo vs 13/5/2 can build faster attack Combo (wanna know this sectet technique ? smite evil)
    12/8 have low DPS on undead and construct (your scimitar) vs 13/5/2 have much high DPS on undead and construct (Warhammer)
    12/8 have lower DPS if mob have high fort or on Lengendary diff if have high prr vs 13/5/2 have higher DPS if mob have high fort or high prr
    12/8 can rock on EN/EH content vs 13/5/2 eat u on brekfast

    12/8 are only u "think" vs 13/5/2 was tested on LE content and Tested on EE raid

    13/5/2 do better dmg in EE MoD, EE deathwyrm, EE thunderpeak and LE content
    13/5/2 can eat yet Wolf on dinner. ohh yes i'm killing machine on Boss'es atm
    13/5/2 was base on 7 years experianced in TWF (yes i never play something different, just rogue in many variant)

    12/8 ? are build who does NOT exist vs 13/5/2 exist

    PS. Erhyn if u not take yet fighter lvl and wanna testing 13.6.1....go 13/6/1warlock spend AP for have assasin trick and shiv only, AP for DoD and thousent cut, and move to deepowod for killer and exposing strike. than 1AP in warlock and take arcane warrior feat [+20mp].....i can imagine how this crush 12/8 "think"
    I wouldn't build for hammers for the undead, but i doubt that the dr is sufficiently high to merit a whole weapon change. Even if it did, your crit profile is better with 12 ranger.

    If this works for you, perfect! I have no issue with it. Just bringing some build discussion in because I have fun with it.

    I am so tempted to reroll to post some damage numbers but I am having too much fun with my warlock in melee. I am pretty sure that I can put out way more impressive dps on my "think" 12/8 ;p

  18. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by BigErkyKid View Post
    I wouldn't build for hammers for the undead, but i doubt that the dr is sufficiently high to merit a whole weapon change. Even if it did, your crit profile is better with 12 ranger.

    If this works for you, perfect! I have no issue with it. Just bringing some build discussion in because I have fun with it.

    I am so tempted to reroll to post some damage numbers but I am having too much fun with my warlock in melee. I am pretty sure that I can put out way more impressive dps on my "think" 12/8 ;p
    Thats great, just any of u accept my chellange ''number'' and show me how i wrong !?.....i Say 12ran/8rog is a gimp. Now prove it's not....reroll and go xD

  19. #39
    Community Member Grailhawk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by levy1964 View Post
    Thats great, just any of u accept my chellange ''number'' and show me how i wrong !?.....i Say 12ran/8rog is a gimp. Now prove it's not....reroll and go xD
    OOO people are saying your build isn't supper duper uber, they must be dumb and gimp. LOL.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Grailhawk View Post
    OOO people are saying your build isn't supper duper uber, they must be dumb and gimp. LOL.
    ofc he not say that..lol, ppl try say 12/8 are stronger. so can u show me that ?

    if u wanna super duper uber go warlock than

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