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  1. #1
    Community Member Skunk_City's Avatar
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    Default New Content Can Balance Classes

    Dear Turbine,
    How are you? I am fine.
    I'm catching up on my DDOcasts. 47:45 into ep. 367, Geoff goes all Amadeus.
    Currently, it seems "balancing" classes is a top priority. Rather than confusing and frustrating us, wasting resources, time, and money to achieve the impossible by way of nerfs, redos and such.., why not balance classes naturally by adding as much new and diversified content as possible? Fire Savants don't fare well in "Fire on Thunder Peak". Pale Masters aren't fond of "Running with the Devils". The Blue Queen is currently puzzling a method of tackling "The Mark of Death" as an Air/Water Savant with 1st life DCs. Hell, "Stealthy Repossession" gave us all an early eye opening: certain classes will fare better than others running certain quests. You say balance, I hear nerf/tweak.
    The fun is figuring out your character, and finding new ways of tackling problems/puzzles.

    NEW & DIVERSIFIED CONTENT! (which can act as a balancing mechanism)

    Also, Elminster is a pikin lil behotch.
    That is all.

    JG
    Last edited by Skunk_City; 01-27-2015 at 02:26 PM.

  2. #2
    Community Member Tinco's Avatar
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    I'm all for diversification and some immunities within one quest, but I really heavily oppose the old Vale-Amrath-Syndrome.

    In a very group-centric game I might agree that this kind of content could work and be interesting (by forcing situations where different group members have their moment to shine), but the way the game plays out nowadays it will most likely simply end with dying build paths.
    The best days are the days you don't have to wear socks or shoes.

  3. #3
    The Hatchery Enoach's Avatar
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    I totally agree the best way to prevent builds from leaning to far one direction is to diversify the content enough that content can't be solved with a single method. Such as MOR DPS.

    While this might ruffle some feathers it could make what is today obscure build options and spell selections more than just pick this and it works for everything.

  4. #4
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    They sorta did this with Necro 4. All the quells hurt the OP bladeforged reconstruct.

    But yeah I agree I'd like to see more diversified quests that favor certain classes over others.

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by axel15810 View Post
    They sorta did this with Necro 4. All the quells hurt the OP bladeforged reconstruct.

    But yeah I agree I'd like to see more diversified quests that favor certain classes over others.
    That would just end up being content played by certain classes and skipped, or piked, by others.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gremmlynn View Post
    That would just end up being content played by certain classes and skipped, or piked, by others.
    Not if there are compelling gear and/or XP incentives to put up with the extra challenge. I run Mark of Death a lot on my divine even though quells and beholders are everywhere because I want an epic litany.

  7. #7
    Community Member Chai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gremmlynn View Post
    That would just end up being content played by certain classes and skipped, or piked, by others.
    I doubt that, unless specific builds were totally rendered ineffective, which doesn't need to happen for good content balance to occur.
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  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chai View Post
    I doubt that, unless specific builds were totally rendered ineffective, which doesn't need to happen for good content balance to occur.
    It would also depend on how needful the builds that are favored are also. Basically how much of a PITA getting together a group and running the content is.

    Better to stick to optional objectives for this type of thing IMO. One's that are convenient enough to make them worth doing too.

  9. #9
    Community Member Blackheartox's Avatar
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    So, a way would be to add bosses who have mantle or immunity to spell, some that are immune to psyhical damage, some that are vulnerable only to sneak damage, some that throw out a anti sla aura that prevents sla based healing, some that turn healing into damage.

    You would need to code ddo upside down to "balance" some current op classes like palie, barb and maybe bard.
    As a dev, isnt it easier just to reduce that 1 tread 1 mutli 2 enchantment to a multiselector?
    Or that barb capstone to non scaling with melle power?
    Or fix swf that it actually works as intended?

    I dont know, what people suggest is to much work, investment into design and messing around with code that alrdy isnt stabile.
    Imagine the lag if they messed with code to introduce all those things
    Last edited by Blackheartox; 01-27-2015 at 06:31 PM.

  10. #10
    Community Member FranOhmsford's Avatar
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    Charisma specced Turn Build Clerics are currently borderline OP in levels 1-10 {though Champions hurt this build a lot!} BUT are nigh on pointless past Lvl 15 {it's nice being able to annihilate the Giant Skellies in Madstone but you have 0 DPS vs anything else in said quest!}.

    Repeater Artificers are still strong in low level play {nowhere near as strong since the Enhancement Pass made getting Endless Fusillade earlier than Lvl 12 very difficult without gimping yourself elsewhere!}.
    Again though this build drops off precipitously past Lvl 15 {actually around Lvl 13}.




    The problem for Turn Specced Clerics isn't JUST the drop off in Undead Quests past Lvl 15.
    It's that the Undead that do appear past that level are so powerful that Turn becomes weak!

    There's also the issue that a Charisma Build Cleric in full Radiant Servant is de facto the best Raid Healer in the game BUT this is a case of unnecessary Overkill now!

    And in standard quests the Build simply gets the reputation of being a Piker!




    The problem for X-Bow Builds {not just Artis but Rogue Mechs too} is that X-Bow DPS doesn't keep up past say Lvl 13-15 and their Enhancement Trees are Super Weak!
    The Defense of these builds relies on Kiting far too much!


    Adding in loads more trap filled quests at higher levels won't work for two reasons:
    1) The Ubers will continue to avoid/zerg through the traps anyway which...
    2) Means that everyone else on a non Trapper build will be forced to look for a Rogue/Arti {And those Rogues/Artis will have already soloed said quest because of Scaling!}.





    Going for Diversification of quests sounds like a great idea BUT it requires many multiple things to be considered not just one!

  11. #11
    Community Member Gauthaag's Avatar
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    i would finnaly like to see quest where palladin caneither loose his status by taking wrong action or cant take some action cause he is paladin. otherwise its just overpowered fighter

  12. #12
    Community Member Vint's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Skunk_City View Post
    why not balance classes naturally by adding as much new and diversified content as possible?
    Terrible idea for the following reason(s)

    Quote Originally Posted by FranOhmsford View Post
    Adding in loads more trap filled quests at higher levels won't work for two reasons:
    1) The Ubers will continue to avoid/zerg through the traps anyway which...
    2) Means that everyone else on a non Trapper build will be forced to look for a Rogue/Arti {And those Rogues/Artis will have already soloed said quest because of Scaling!}.
    Using your logic and make content harder for (insert build/race) the ubers will either find a way to make it work on their current build or they will tr their main back to 28 in two weeks and be back on top of the FOTM.

    Your idea would only hurt casuals. This could render their toons useless and unwanted in certain quests (no more sorc puggers allowed in fire peak). They would have to either wait for the next update in hopes that their toon can join the reindeer games again or spend possibly a few months just to get a toon that would be accepted in the endgame that “penalizes” people for having certain characters.
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  13. #13
    Community Member Oxarhamar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FranOhmsford View Post
    ~snip
    Repeater Artificers are still strong in low level play {nowhere near as strong since the Enhancement Pass made getting Endless Fusillade earlier than Lvl 12 very difficult without gimping yourself elsewhere!}.
    Again though this build drops off precipitously past Lvl 15

    The problem for X-Bow Builds {not just Artis but Rogue Mechs too} is that X-Bow DPS doesn't keep up past say Lvl 13-15 and their Enhancement Trees are Super Weak!
    The Defense of these builds relies on Kiting far too much!
    1st it's not difficult to get Endless fusillade @12 without gimping yourself if your a repeater artificer maybe, if your a mix of caster w/repeater. But, if your a repeater Artificer you'll be ignoring most of the Arcano tree since it does nothing for repeaters.

    2nd pure repeater DPS is good enough to 1,2, or maybe 3 shot most mobs up to Vale on Elite if you build for repeater DPS.

    3rd I'll agree the Battle Engineer tree is weak in comparison to other class trees.

  14. #14
    Community Member bartharok's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blackheartox View Post
    So, a way would be to add bosses who have mantle or immunity to spell, some that are immune to psyhical damage, some that are vulnerable only to sneak damage, some that throw out a anti sla aura that prevents sla based healing, some that turn healing into damage.

    You would need to code ddo upside down to "balance" some current op classes like palie, barb and maybe bard.
    As a dev, isnt it easier just to reduce that 1 tread 1 mutli 2 enchantment to a multiselector?
    Or that barb capstone to non scaling with melle power?
    Or fix swf that it actually works as intended?

    I dont know, what people suggest is to much work, investment into design and messing around with code that alrdy isnt stabile.
    Imagine the lag if they messed with code to introduce all those things
    You mean that new content is a bad thing? The idea seems to be to make new content that prevents FotM builds from breezing through everything. One quest being suboptimal for class X, the other for Y etc.
    Dystopia = utopia achieved

  15. #15
    Community Member redoubt's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Skunk_City View Post
    Dear Turbine,
    How are you? I am fine.
    I'm catching up on my DDOcasts. 47:45 into ep. 367, Geoff goes all Amadeus.
    Currently, it seems "balancing" classes is a top priority. Rather than confusing and frustrating us, wasting resources, time, and money to achieve the impossible by way of nerfs, redos and such.., why not balance classes naturally by adding as much new and diversified content as possible? Fire Savants don't fare well in "Fire on Thunder Peak". Pale Masters aren't fond of "Running with the Devils". The Blue Queen is currently puzzling a method of tackling "The Mark of Death" as an Air/Water Savant with 1st life DCs. Hell, "Stealthy Repossession" gave us all an early eye opening: certain classes will fare better than others running certain quests. You say balance, I hear nerf/tweak.
    The fun is figuring out your character, and finding new ways of tackling problems/puzzles.

    NEW & DIVERSIFIED CONTENT! (which can act as a balancing mechanism)

    Also, Elminster is a pikin lil behotch.
    That is all.

    JG
    I think the concept is okay, but you have to be careful with it. You don't want to build entire chains or adventure packs that punish certain builds. i.e. your PM comments about the vale represent a good one. In most of the quests a PM goes about their business as usual, but in that one quest, its completely different to the point that I drop out of form for that quest.

    On the other side of this are places where entire packs are bad, i.e. a fire savant will find ALL of the vale annoying.

    So, if content is made so that there is one quest where the build is amazing, one quest where the build has a tough time and 3 quests where is normal-normal, then great. (I don't want to see entire packs where one build is dominant throughout the whole pack or vice versa.)
    Should a reaper see me? I think Death itself should have to make a spot check when I'm rolling up behind him. -- Krimsonrane

  16. #16
    Community Member Gauthaag's Avatar
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    problem with traps is, we have just one type of traps - traps dealing damage, with couple bright exceptions.

    why cant we have more instant death traps - any one stepeed into mouth of green devil in tomb of horrors? - like that dead fall in Halls. inescapable death is still inescapable death, if it has logical sense, despite what your almighty character sheet says.

    why cant we have completion preventing traps, closing passage to optionals, loot or even quest completion? there are already couple of those...why no more?

    why no more teleportation traps - like in rainbow, sending u to dull maze prolonging quest completion by significant amout without any additional rewards.

    beside people trying to may xp via trap bonuses, there are really not many reasons for having traps in quests at all.

  17. #17
    Community Member FranOhmsford's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Oxarhamar View Post
    1st it's not difficult to get Endless fusillade @12 without gimping yourself if your a repeater artificer maybe, if your a mix of caster w/repeater. But, if your a repeater Artificer you'll be ignoring most of the Arcano tree since it does nothing for repeaters.
    1) I stated BEFORE not AT lvl 12!
    Endless Fusillade used to be available at Lvl 6 btw! {Yes I know it theoretically still is but that's what I'm getting at!}.

    Quote Originally Posted by Oxarhamar View Post
    2nd pure repeater DPS is good enough to 1,2, or maybe 3 shot most mobs up to Vale on Elite if you build for repeater DPS.
    From your posts I'd hazard a guess that you are one of DDO's top 5%!

    I'm NOT talking about what the top 5% can do with a Class {I'm not even talking about what the top 10 or 20% can do with a Class!}.
    And before you say it...I'm also NOT talking about the bottom 5,10 or 20% either!}.

    I'm talking about the middle ground!

    And if you {and pretty much every other Uber on these forums going by posts on this subject!} consider Arti DPS to drop off after Vale {Lvl 16-18} and I consider it to drop off around Lvl 13-15....
    Well that's not enough of a difference in today's game to argue about!

    Quote Originally Posted by Oxarhamar View Post
    3rd I'll agree the Battle Engineer tree is weak in comparison to other class trees.
    Weak?

    It's a JOKE!

    And so is Arcanotech!

  18. #18
    Community Member Oxarhamar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FranOhmsford View Post
    1) I stated BEFORE not AT lvl 12!
    Endless Fusillade used to be available at Lvl 6 btw! {Yes I know it theoretically still is but that's what I'm getting at!}.



    From your posts I'd hazard a guess that you are one of DDO's top 5%!

    I'm NOT talking about what the top 5% can do with a Class {I'm not even talking about what the top 10 or 20% can do with a Class!}.
    And before you say it...I'm also NOT talking about the bottom 5,10 or 20% either!}.

    I'm talking about the middle ground!

    And if you {and pretty much every other Uber on these forums going by posts on this subject!} consider Arti DPS to drop off after Vale {Lvl 16-18} and I consider it to drop off around Lvl 13-15....
    Well that's not enough of a difference in today's game to argue about!



    Weak?

    It's a JOKE!

    And so is Arcanotech!
    Thing is Repeater DPS drops off after Vale due to HP bloat of some mobs in lvl 18+ heroic quests (at least in elite)

    In Epics DPS for a repeater build gets much better with destinies

    still I agree about the Trees Artificer is all gear they get next to nothing from their enhancement trees compared to other classes. It's easier to get more Repeater DPS from other class trees than Battle Engineer.

    arcanotech gets some SLAs and spell power but, I have not used it since around U12 so I wouldn't know how it applies in game currently some have success with caster ranged. Not my taste.

  19. #19
    Community Member Skunk_City's Avatar
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    I don't understand why anyone would be against new content. I'm suggesting Turbine can use this new material, if they are clever, to prevent flavor of the month builds from becoming too OP. There will always be an unbalance, but the more new/innovative quests, the less likely one build can be uber at everything.
    Also, the folks with triple completionist and maxed EDs and full-on twink gear will always have an edge, as by design.
    I'm not suggesting any one way of accomplishing a balancing act, and, certainly, an entire chain slated in bias to a class is a bad idea.
    Really, I'm asking turbine to stop making "epic" redos of existing content, to stop futile and constant class tweaking (unless legitimately necessary), and to look to what could be, rather than what is.

  20. #20
    Death's Dominator Eth's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blackheartox View Post
    So, a way would be to add bosses who have mantle or immunity to spell, some that are immune to psyhical damage, some that are vulnerable only to sneak damage, some that throw out a anti sla aura that prevents sla based healing, some that turn healing into damage.
    Except the last one all these are already in the game, wouldn't even require coding.
    It's just not used enough I guess.

    Mantle: Suulomades, Liches

    Spell Immunity: SR outside possible reach - Helmed Horrors (also Heal from Force and one random elemental damage type), Clay Golems

    Immunity to physical damage: not blank immune, we have mobs with extremely high resistance - Nevalarich, Death Knights in MoD;
    Xy'zzy is blanket immune to everything including physical damage (except Ruin and Tsunami, likely not WAI)

    Sneak attack only: Aurgloroasa with 5 Deathlords alive (Ruin works too, I know)

    Anti SLA aura: Death Knight in MoD has a quell aura which prevents all racial SLAs
    Thelanis - Ethforged - Etherar - Fjirty --- Mitis Mors
    Ghallanda - Ethrayne - Ethryne --- Omnipresence
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