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  1. #41
    Community Member Blackheartox's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by axel15810 View Post
    This. Pally DPS is too high right now. Considering their godly saves and good self-healing, they should NOT be top tier melee DPS. They should be 2nd tier.

    Until this is changed, there is no reason to gimp your survivability by going fighter or barb when you can get the same DPS but also gain higher saves and good self-healing/some casting by going Pally.

    Looks like they're moving in the right direction with proposed newest barb tweaks but we'll see what happens. In overall EE viability, pure pallies are still miles ahead of pure barbs and pure fighters.
    After the teacher said the things aboce it was total silence.

    Nothing but silence in clasroom, a little boy in 3rd row seat 3 with a slightly confused look on his face raises his hand with hesitation and scared says:
    "Teacher i dont think you are correct, barbarians are ahead of paladins in dps now, and survival does not matter because barbarians selfheal very good for any epic elite content"

    Teacher starts laughing and tells the boy that he should go outside of class and hold a bucket of water and to think what he just said.
    While boy walks up to door, teacher burts out in laughter while thro tears you could hear 1 sentence.
    Barbarians selfhealing...


    Boy, slowly walks outside and confused stands there for the duration of the whole class.
    After its finished, teacher calls him to faculty office and tells him, dont ever talk about that again.

    Boy, learned a important lesson from that..
    Things change rapidly in this world..

  2. #42
    Community Member the_one_dwarfforged's Avatar
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    yea fighters are just gimps now. period.

    thanks to bard and pally and barb changes, they all deal as much dps or more than a fighter with better, i dont know, ability to do literally anything other than dps.

    bards can self heal and self buff.

    pallies can self heal.

    barbs are in my opinion even more disgusting than pallies, because all you have to do is log in and youre self healing without stopping to heal yourself. barbs are best dps just because they spend closest to 100% of the time just fighting.

    fighters have no tactical dc advantage.

    fighters have no melee versatility advantage. nobody takes multiple weapon focus lines, and you only get keen edge for one anyway.

    fighters have no defensive and/or self healing advantage. everyone who can wears heavy armor, and if you are going to tell me that barb healing is worse than scrolling and/or cocoon then youre an idiot.

    extra feats doesnt add up to much. for me it means i keep all my ranged feats, but do you notice many people complaining that their pallies are gimp because they dont have manyshot? i dont. and is manyshot even better than just meleeing now? maybe a little bit i guess, but not that much if at all.

    and if you dont take ranged then those extra fighter feats add up to nothing, which is the same as not having extra feats. and if you dont have enough feats to pick up basically everything you could want (especially on a ****ing pally, getting better cleaves for free...) then youre doing something wrong. and if you are spending your extra fighter feats on +2 will save because, youe a fighter and ahve bad saves, its still nothing because your saves probably arent high enough to matter anyway. trying to compare extra fighter feats being spent on iron will to divine grace is massively idiotic. i dont want divine grace, but i mean really, what a terrible comparison.


    so the long and short of it is, fighters are not useless, but they are pointless. cant do anything that another class cant do better more easily, ***.
    Last edited by the_one_dwarfforged; 01-13-2015 at 01:04 PM.
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  3. #43
    Community Member mezzorco's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Enoach View Post
    Now a fighter does not have to suffer from lower saves if they invest some of their feats that improve their saves.
    This.
    Iron Will, Lightning Reflexes, Luck of Heroes and your saves go from base 12/6/6 to 13/9/9. And you still have 8 more feats than a pure pally.
    If you want to really invest on your saves, Snake Blood, Discipline and Bullheaded bring you to 13/10/11.

    Also, Insightful Reflexes can be useful for pure fighters willing to take Know the angles, while Force of Personality is less worthwhile.
    Last edited by mezzorco; 01-13-2015 at 02:25 PM.

  4. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by Powskier View Post
    relax dude ,it is his 1st fighter life...tellin people they didnt try hard enough is some weak rotten tripe.They get +6 will save at lvl 20 ,I think alot players dont know how low it is.
    Clearly a number of players don't know how to mitigate a low will save with gear and not dumping WIS. If "your friend" only has the bare minimum will save at 20, they're either going to figure out how to raise it or come to the forum and whine. One of those makes a better player.

  5. #45
    Community Member Araleas's Avatar
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    Default uhm, really?

    Quote Originally Posted by Powskier View Post
    well, he is around a +22-26 ,i forget exactly ;the +6 is the base for lvl20 fighter(way low compared to other classes)but we are used to EH and EE... +26 or 28 is barely good enough for epic hard.
    Low compared to what classes?

    Fighter saves at level 20 are Fort:+12 Reflex:+6 WIll:+6
    You get exactly the same saves when you are a level 20 Paladin or Barbarian.
    Two other classes with a +6 Will save are Rogue and Ranger.

    Now the classes with higher Will save
    Wizard, Sorcerer, Druid, Cleric, Artificer, Favored Soul, Monk, Bard
    With the exception of Bard and Monk (who plays in a different saves league anyway) all caster oriented classes.

    Now please explain again why Fighters should get the same base WILL save as caster classes?
    Additional question: Do all those caster classes get a +12 Fort save accordingly?

  6. #46
    Community Member Araleas's Avatar
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    Default This

    Quote Originally Posted by bsquishwizzy View Post
    *snip*

    There is nothing wrong with fighters, aside from the fact that Kensai was designed for a monk splash, as opposed to a pure fighter.
    I fully agree with that statement.

  7. #47
    Executive Producer Severlin's Avatar
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    I am going to break tradition and talk about some early musings on balance so player's get a glimpse into our early balance and design thoughts. These have not even gone to player's council yet so I hope players will keep an open mind and realize this is all subject to change. In the past we haven't talked about early design thoughts because players often consider that a promise or definite plan - which this is not intended to be.

    Kensai has always been a pet peeve of mine; why the only Fighter DPS tree was designed so that you had to splash monk to maximize its potential is something I've never understood. In the long run we will probably add some heavy armor options through multi-selectors to the tree. I'd personally like to create a new fighter tree, but we really can't add a fourth tree - at least until Favored Soul, Druid, and Artificer get their third trees.

    Right now we feel that Rogue probably needs attention more than Fighter, and melee Rangers could use a bump in mitigation.

    Our balance check list includes the following items in no particular order, and with no particular timetable attached. These are our current thoughts, but they are early and haven't even been discussed with the player's council.

    ~ Add Ranged Power to epic levels and epic destinies, while balancing Manyshot and 10k Stars. We want current high end ranged builds to keep their DPS - we just want to open up some underperforming ranged builds. This change will allow many more ranged builds to participate in the epic levels. Artificer repeater builds and ranger ranged builds will be better without needing to splash monk, and we might even see players experimenting with throwing builds. It also allows us to make some heroic abilities scale with ranged power.

    ~ Rogue pass. Mechanic is particularly bad.

    ~ New Favored Soul tree.

    ~ New Druid tree while we fix the many issues with druid forms.

    ~ Fighter pass. Kensai needs some non monk options. We think we might want the fighter advantage to be tactical DCs so fighters will probably get boosts to those.

    ~ Rangers could use some more tweaks, particularly with their mitigation.

    ~ Artificer pass. While the ranged power changes should really help Artificers, rune arms have fallen behind. Part of it is that they need better scaling into epic levels. Neither the damage nor the DCs scale well into higher levels.

    ~ We understand Divine Grace creates a bad situation where characters without it have a hard time competing with Paladin splashes when building for good saves. We don't want to nerf the saves of top builds, so we are looking into adding a bonus type to the Divine Grace saving throw bonus and creating some saving throw items with the same type of bonus type. In other words, players without Divine Grace will be able to make up some of the difference through itemization.

    Sev~

  8. #48
    Community Member UurlockYgmeov's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Severlin View Post
    I am going to break tradition and talk about some early musings on balance so player's get a glimpse into our early balance and design thoughts. These have not even gone to player's council yet so I hope players will keep an open mind and realize this is all subject to change. In the past we haven't talked about early design thoughts because players often consider that a promise or definite plan - which this is not intended to be.

    Kensai has always been a pet peeve of mine; why the only Fighter DPS tree was designed so that you had to splash monk to maximize its potential is something I've never understood. In the long run we will probably add some heavy armor options through multi-selectors to the tree. I'd personally like to create a new fighter tree, but we really can't add a fourth tree - at least until Favored Soul, Druid, and Artificer get their third trees.

    Right now we feel that Rogue probably needs attention more than Fighter, and melee Rangers could use a bump in mitigation.

    Our balance check list includes the following items in no particular order, and with no particular timetable attached. These are our current thoughts, but they are early and haven't even been discussed with the player's council.

    ~ Add Ranged Power to epic levels and epic destinies, while balancing Manyshot and 10k Stars. We want current high end ranged builds to keep their DPS - we just want to open up some underperforming ranged builds. This change will allow many more ranged builds to participate in the epic levels. Artificer repeater builds and ranger ranged builds will be better without needing to splash monk, and we might even see players experimenting with throwing builds. It also allows us to make some heroic abilities scale with ranged power.

    ~ Rogue pass. Mechanic is particularly bad.

    ~ New Favored Soul tree.

    ~ New Druid tree while we fix the many issues with druid forms.

    ~ Fighter pass. Kensai needs some non monk options. We think we might want the fighter advantage to be tactical DCs so fighters will probably get boosts to those.

    ~ Rangers could use some more tweaks, particularly with their mitigation.

    ~ Artificer pass. While the ranged power changes should really help Artificers, rune arms have fallen behind. Part of it is that they need better scaling into epic levels. Neither the damage nor the DCs scale well into higher levels.

    ~ We understand Divine Grace creates a bad situation where characters without it have a hard time competing with Paladin splashes when building for good saves. We don't want to nerf the saves of top builds, so we are looking into adding a bonus type to the Divine Grace saving throw bonus and creating some saving throw items with the same type of bonus type. In other words, players without Divine Grace will be able to make up some of the difference through itemization.

    Sev~
    Thank you for posting this. While I might not agree with everything - I like that you are doing something and generally your thoughts about what and how. Keep it up! Reposting to Tha Consortium private forums.

  9. #49
    Community Member mezzorco's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Severlin View Post
    why the only Fighter DPS tree was designed so that you had to splash monk to maximize its potential is something I've never understood.
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  10. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by Severlin View Post
    I am going to break tradition and talk about some early musings on balance so player's get a glimpse into our early balance and design thoughts. These have not even gone to player's council yet so I hope players will keep an open mind and realize this is all subject to change. In the past we haven't talked about early design thoughts because players often consider that a promise or definite plan - which this is not intended to be.

    Kensai has always been a pet peeve of mine; why the only Fighter DPS tree was designed so that you had to splash monk to maximize its potential is something I've never understood. In the long run we will probably add some heavy armor options through multi-selectors to the tree. I'd personally like to create a new fighter tree, but we really can't add a fourth tree - at least until Favored Soul, Druid, and Artificer get their third trees.

    Right now we feel that Rogue probably needs attention more than Fighter, and melee Rangers could use a bump in mitigation.

    Our balance check list includes the following items in no particular order, and with no particular timetable attached. These are our current thoughts, but they are early and haven't even been discussed with the player's council.

    ~ Add Ranged Power to epic levels and epic destinies, while balancing Manyshot and 10k Stars. We want current high end ranged builds to keep their DPS - we just want to open up some underperforming ranged builds. This change will allow many more ranged builds to participate in the epic levels. Artificer repeater builds and ranger ranged builds will be better without needing to splash monk, and we might even see players experimenting with throwing builds. It also allows us to make some heroic abilities scale with ranged power.

    ~ Rogue pass. Mechanic is particularly bad.

    ~ New Favored Soul tree.

    ~ New Druid tree while we fix the many issues with druid forms.

    ~ Fighter pass. Kensai needs some non monk options. We think we might want the fighter advantage to be tactical DCs so fighters will probably get boosts to those.

    ~ Rangers could use some more tweaks, particularly with their mitigation.

    ~ Artificer pass. While the ranged power changes should really help Artificers, rune arms have fallen behind. Part of it is that they need better scaling into epic levels. Neither the damage nor the DCs scale well into higher levels.

    ~ We understand Divine Grace creates a bad situation where characters without it have a hard time competing with Paladin splashes when building for good saves. We don't want to nerf the saves of top builds, so we are looking into adding a bonus type to the Divine Grace saving throw bonus and creating some saving throw items with the same type of bonus type. In other words, players without Divine Grace will be able to make up some of the difference through itemization.

    Sev~
    All of that sounds very good. Especially the priority of things. Getting classes that are lacking their 3rd tree is good to wrap up before new classes are added or 4th trees are discussed. I really like the sound of tweaking kensai with multi selectors. Doesn't break those that want to splash but gives those that do not an option that's worthwhile. Can't wait to get some of this on live!
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  11. #51
    Hopeless Romantic dunklezhan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Severlin View Post
    Our balance check list includes the following items in no particular order, and with no particular timetable attached. These are our current thoughts, but they are early and haven't even been discussed with the player's council.

    ~ Add Ranged Power to epic levels and epic destinies, while balancing Manyshot and 10k Stars. We want current high end ranged builds to keep their DPS - we just want to open up some underperforming ranged builds. This change will allow many more ranged builds to participate in the epic levels. Artificer repeater builds and ranger ranged builds will be better without needing to splash monk, and we might even see players experimenting with throwing builds. It also allows us to make some heroic abilities scale with ranged power.

    ~ Rogue pass. Mechanic is particularly bad.

    ~ New Favored Soul tree.

    ~ New Druid tree while we fix the many issues with druid forms.

    ~ Fighter pass. Kensai needs some non monk options. We think we might want the fighter advantage to be tactical DCs so fighters will probably get boosts to those.

    ~ Rangers could use some more tweaks, particularly with their mitigation.

    ~ Artificer pass. While the ranged power changes should really help Artificers, rune arms have fallen behind. Part of it is that they need better scaling into epic levels. Neither the damage nor the DCs scale well into higher levels.

    Sev~
    All good stuff to know, understood that it's early. I haven't any comments because the above list pretty much nails it for me. I do have one request: when looking at druid forms please do something to make pure druid bear at least as viable a tank as a fighter vanguard or stalwart. I appreciate that they have casting capability as well which makes this hard to balance as you don't want them to be automatically a better choice than a fighter tank. But please try! Its the only druid that appeals to me and currently it just doesn't work.
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  12. #52
    Community Member PermaBanned's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Severlin View Post
    ...and we might even see players experimenting with throwing builds.
    You mean other than the Shuricannon, Swashflingers that Metorthingy throwing builds?
    I would still like to see... Something that tests character versatility and player adaptability rather than character focus strength and quest knowledge.
    I play the quests for the content of the quests not just as an XP/min merry-go-round.
    Actual play experience is worth infinitely more than theorycrafting...

  13. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by Severlin View Post
    ~ We understand Divine Grace creates a bad situation where characters without it have a hard time competing with Paladin splashes when building for good saves. We don't want to nerf the saves of top builds, so we are looking into adding a bonus type to the Divine Grace saving throw bonus and creating some saving throw items with the same type of bonus type. In other words, players without Divine Grace will be able to make up some of the difference through itemization.
    Does this mean you are considering not nerfing divine grace but instead giving builds without divine grace an opportunity to boost their saves? Or am I reading too much into this?

  14. #54
    Executive Producer Severlin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DarthCaedus View Post
    Does this mean you are considering not nerfing divine grace but instead giving builds without divine grace an opportunity to boost their saves? Or am I reading too much into this?
    Yes that's what we are currently discussing.

    Sev~

  15. #55
    Community Member Grailhawk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Severlin View Post
    Right now we feel that Rogue probably needs attention more than Fighter, and melee Rangers could use a bump in mitigation.


    ~ Rangers could use some more tweaks, particularly with their mitigation.
    QTF, Ranger defense is really poor, Hopefully that list gets taken care of this year.

  16. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by DarthCaedus View Post
    Does this mean you are considering not nerfing divine grace but instead giving builds without divine grace an opportunity to boost their saves? Or am I reading too much into this?
    That Is *almost* the way I read it. What I see is that they are hoping to make Divine Grace into a bonus type that can be found on items, so that Paladins and Paladin splashes will have it built in, while other character types can equip it if desired. The reason why I say that this is *almost* what you said, is that they've run into problem when trying to ad new bonus types before, and a compromise version of Divine Grace might not end up stacking with some current form of saving throw bonus.

    ~~~and ninja'd by Severlin

  17. #57
    Community Member Rys's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Severlin View Post
    Add Ranged Power to epic levels and epic destinies, while balancing Manyshot and 10k Stars. We want current high end ranged builds to keep their DPS - we just want to open up some underperforming ranged builds.
    Oh great. So I guess you'll make me quit finally after all. Breaking existing builds is your speciality. No matter what you say.

    Totally can see the future:
    Manyshot puts 10k Stars on 2 minutes cooldown and vice versa. Doubleshot penalty removed. The only viable choice now is a pure ranger.

    Now just fix the Fury Eternal to actually work as described or nerf it to the ground (what do you prefer) and leave the Shiradi as the only ranged option so we all can use one button - autoattack. And I can let my cat play instead of me.
    Last edited by Rys; 01-13-2015 at 04:32 PM.

  18. #58
    Community Member Qhualor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Severlin View Post
    I am going to break tradition and talk about some early musings on balance so player's get a glimpse into our early balance and design thoughts. These have not even gone to player's council yet so I hope players will keep an open mind and realize this is all subject to change. In the past we haven't talked about early design thoughts because players often consider that a promise or definite plan - which this is not intended to be.

    Kensai has always been a pet peeve of mine; why the only Fighter DPS tree was designed so that you had to splash monk to maximize its potential is something I've never understood. In the long run we will probably add some heavy armor options through multi-selectors to the tree. I'd personally like to create a new fighter tree, but we really can't add a fourth tree - at least until Favored Soul, Druid, and Artificer get their third trees.

    Right now we feel that Rogue probably needs attention more than Fighter, and melee Rangers could use a bump in mitigation.

    Our balance check list includes the following items in no particular order, and with no particular timetable attached. These are our current thoughts, but they are early and haven't even been discussed with the player's council.

    ~ Add Ranged Power to epic levels and epic destinies, while balancing Manyshot and 10k Stars. We want current high end ranged builds to keep their DPS - we just want to open up some underperforming ranged builds. This change will allow many more ranged builds to participate in the epic levels. Artificer repeater builds and ranger ranged builds will be better without needing to splash monk, and we might even see players experimenting with throwing builds. It also allows us to make some heroic abilities scale with ranged power.

    ~ Rogue pass. Mechanic is particularly bad.

    ~ New Favored Soul tree.

    ~ New Druid tree while we fix the many issues with druid forms.

    ~ Fighter pass. Kensai needs some non monk options. We think we might want the fighter advantage to be tactical DCs so fighters will probably get boosts to those.

    ~ Rangers could use some more tweaks, particularly with their mitigation.

    ~ Artificer pass. While the ranged power changes should really help Artificers, rune arms have fallen behind. Part of it is that they need better scaling into epic levels. Neither the damage nor the DCs scale well into higher levels.

    ~ We understand Divine Grace creates a bad situation where characters without it have a hard time competing with Paladin splashes when building for good saves. We don't want to nerf the saves of top builds, so we are looking into adding a bonus type to the Divine Grace saving throw bonus and creating some saving throw items with the same type of bonus type. In other words, players without Divine Grace will be able to make up some of the difference through itemization.

    Sev~
    yeah, expect to be called on this

    it looks to me like some things that have been a big concern and some needed improvements might be happening this year finally. glad to see Kensei will be getting a look, but i don't think Fighter needs another tree. rather see a rework to Kensei to be the DPS/tactical tree that still keeps the flavor of the prestige. definitely agree with Mechanic. i tried it for one heroic life on one of my rogue past lives and it lacked serious dps if you didn't use a crossbow. leery about the idea of creating saving throw items and bonus to compete with DG. sounds a little too power creep to me. i would rather see a look into maybe the races, classes and enhancements instead to see if there would be something that could be improved first.
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  19. #59
    Community Member UurlockYgmeov's Avatar
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    SO what about HOrc? I haven't seen any around in ages... except for the one storage toon I have (Skelle Beater) which was rolled up to try the new race when it initially was made available.

  20. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by UurlockYgmeov View Post
    SO what about HOrc? I haven't seen any around in ages... except for the one storage toon I have (Skelle Beater) which was rolled up to try the new race when it initially was made available.
    In my view it's a trash race at this point. The AP cost of the THF damage line is way too expensive and hasn't scaled well at all once we broke past level 20. Same with dwarf axe line. And the cores of the horc tree are terrible. And they get both a -2 to CHA and a -2 to INT. Yuck.

    Really hope they do a racial pass at some point. I especially want to see some compelling reasons to pick a race other than bladeforged for a melee.

    Right now Bladeforged is the best race by far for melees because of reconstruct SLA. The best by a decent margin over warforged for most arcanes. And human/pdk is the clear winner for divines because of the extra feat being so huge for feat starved classes.

    Not a whole lot of min/max reasons to play any other races at the moment, other than a handful of niche builds. Drow rogues for assassinate DC and sun elf turners come to mind.

    But basically we have 2 races, humans and bladeforged. For the vast majority of builds everything else is flavor. That's a huge problem. I get so annoyed playing my cleric that darn near every single fighter/rogue/ranger/paladin/monk I see in epics is a bladeforged now. Please give us something, anything on other racial trees that can compete with the bladeforged SLA on a melee.
    Last edited by axel15810; 01-13-2015 at 04:24 PM.

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