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  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steelstar View Post
    Effects that provide bonuses to saves - Such as "+X Resistance" items, or Sapphires of Resistance augments - do already stack with effects that provide bonuses to saves from individual schools (such as the +6 to Illusion and Enchantment saves found on the Epic Glimpse the Soul), even if they are the same bonus type. We'll look into a possible wording change to make this more clear.


    There was an issue with Intercession Ward not blocking the Aura of Intercession from one of the Death Knights in the Raid. It should be fixed in the next patch.




    These kinds of statements violate community guidelines, and are also untrue.
    these need a specific wording about them stacking currently it's the same type as a resistance item and afaik and we have been told same type of bonus does not stack except as hamp which is also getting changed.

    If it had been stated that these low value specific save boni stack i think everyone would have been happy with it.
    Last edited by Lifespawn; 10-22-2014 at 01:47 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by MadFloyd View Post
    Fernando has yet to even suggest a nerf of anything.
    Oh and by the way (referring to your sig), we aren't nerfing the Torc.

  2. #22
    Community Member Psiandron's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steelstar View Post
    Effects that provide bonuses to saves - Such as "+X Resistance" items, or Sapphires of Resistance augments - do already stack with effects that provide bonuses to saves from individual schools (such as the +6 to Illusion and Enchantment saves found on the Epic Glimpse the Soul), even if they are the same bonus type. We'll look into a possible wording change to make this more clear.
    Keep these sorts of things in mind if/when you guys go to redo the character sheets.

    While I find that the front page of the character sheet is more than reasonable in what it shows, there is a distinct lack of data available when the entirety of the sheet is viewed. I believe what you're saying is true, but how on earth would we ever know that?

    Whether it is true or not, when looking at the game it certainly appears that effort has been made to hide information from the players and to make data-collection more difficult. While to some degree I can understand that, I think that you've really gone a bit too far.
    Quote Originally Posted by MalkavianX View Post
    and then dropped it like a burning kitten

  3. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steelstar View Post
    Effects that provide bonuses to saves - Such as "+X Resistance" items, or Sapphires of Resistance augments - do already stack with effects that provide bonuses to saves from individual schools (such as the +6 to Illusion and Enchantment saves found on the Epic Glimpse the Soul), even if they are the same bonus type.
    If they are the same bonus type, they should not stack. Isn't that the whole point of giving things specific types of bonuses, to make it clear what does and doesn't stack?

    Though of course not stacking would make those properties useless. So you have the end effect that makes the item useful, but at the expense of defeating the whole named-types-for-bonuses system.

    Quote Originally Posted by Steelstar View Post
    We'll look into a possible wording change to make this more clear.
    ...by swapping it to a different, and thus supposed-to-stack, and easy-to-understand-that-it-stacks, type?

  4. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steelstar View Post
    Effects that provide bonuses to saves - Such as "+X Resistance" items, or Sapphires of Resistance augments - do already stack with effects that provide bonuses to saves from individual schools (such as the +6 to Illusion and Enchantment saves found on the Epic Glimpse the Soul), even if they are the same bonus type. We'll look into a possible wording change to make this more clear.


    There was an issue with Intercession Ward not blocking the Aura of Intercession from one of the Death Knights in the Raid. It should be fixed in the next patch.




    These kinds of statements violate community guidelines, and are also untrue.
    The implementation has been hit or miss in the past, however...

    Cannith crafted shards do NOT stack, which we were told was the design intention since they're all resistance. Parasitic Breastplate's +10 reflex has always stacked, which you're saying is the intention because it's a specific save. One of them is bugged. You're saying Cannith crafting... Please don't nerf/"fix"/retrcon Parasitic Breastplate...

  5. #25

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    Quote Originally Posted by SirValentine View Post
    If they are the same bonus type, they should not stack. Isn't that the whole point of giving things specific types of bonuses, to make it clear what does and doesn't stack?

    Though of course not stacking would make those properties useless. So you have the end effect that makes the item useful, but at the expense of defeating the whole named-types-for-bonuses system.



    ...by swapping it to a different, and thus supposed-to-stack, and easy-to-understand-that-it-stacks, type?
    When calculating your save against, say, Hold Person, the game uses something like: (Total Will Save)+(Bonuses to Saves against Enchantment Spells). They're entirely separate channels, and seem to have worked that way since at least Module 5, if not earlier. The Will Save bonus will apply to every Will save; the Enchantment Save will only apply if the effect you're making a saving throw for is an Enchantment effect. So they won't always apply in exactly the same situations.

    We don't presently have plans to change those channels, but if people are confused we'll look into ways it can be made clearer.

    Quote Originally Posted by Systern View Post
    Cannith crafted shards do NOT stack, which we were told was the design intention since they're all resistance. Parasitic Breastplate's +10 reflex has always stacked, which you're saying is the intention because it's a specific save. One of them is bugged. You're saying Cannith crafting... Please don't nerf/"fix"/retrcon Parasitic Breastplate...
    Cannith Crafted shards stack in the same way I mentioned above; a character wearing an item with a "Will Save +1" shard and an item with an "Enchantment Save +1" item (and nothing else) has +2 against Hold Person (which is an Enchantment spell with a Will save). Not sure offhand what's special about the Parasitic Breastplate (would need to look into it).
    Last edited by Steelstar; 10-22-2014 at 03:43 PM.

  6. #26

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    Quote Originally Posted by Steelstar View Post
    even if they are the same bonus type. We'll look into a possible wording change to make this more clear
    Yes please - it's important to understand how things stack in order to get the most value out of gear selection. This is one of the effects where it's not clear if a simple resist item accomplishes the same or if this has stacking properties.

  7. #27

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    Quote Originally Posted by Steelstar View Post
    When calculating your save against, say, Hold Person, the game uses something like: (Total Will Save)+(Bonuses to Saves against Enchantment Spells). They're entirely separate channels, and seem to have worked that way since at least Module 5, if not earlier.

    We don't presently have plans to change those channels, but if people are confused we'll look into ways it can be made clearer.
    Maybe this is a great opportunity to write down a simple explanation of how stuff works? This was entirely unclear to me until you pointed it out. My understand was always that if you have say a resist item it combines all the features as per the description so if you add a separate bonus it's already covered by the resist. +6 enchantment save is huge in addition to resist. And something that makes it definitely viable for low save classes.

  8. #28
    Community Member bbqzor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steelstar View Post
    Effects that provide bonuses to saves - Such as "+X Resistance" items, or Sapphires of Resistance augments - do already stack with effects that provide bonuses to saves from individual schools (such as the +6 to Illusion and Enchantment saves found on the Epic Glimpse the Soul), even if they are the same bonus type. We'll look into a possible wording change to make this more clear.
    I swear Im not trying to be snarky but since when? It has never operated that way in the past, even when tested as such, going back literally as far as I can remember (and Ive been playing consistently since '07 with a good memory). Was this some kind of intentional change which got put live at some point and never made the notes? Or is this limited to this one item due to how the mutations on it were specifically done by hand, as its a named item. If its all such things, it was a global change at some point... maybe when a dev (think Eladrin?) changed the Resistance mutation to resistance typed from enchantment typed waaaay back some things got missed? So now they stack? Shrugs, you tell us, heh.

    And furthermore... why just mention this now? Its not like there weren't multiple threads on lamania offering item feedback which all mentioned this issue. Again, as with the armor categories, total silence until way later. That is something you should strive to fix more than the items itself... all that player effort couldve been put to better use, and less hard feelings about intent would come up. You really need to let us know whats going on with stuff like this, please. It makes a difference, and improves the game.

    Definitely change the typing on this (and any other) affected items to make it 100% crystal clear what is supposed to be going on. Ive got a Belt of Tongue and other such things squirreled away on mules, and a 150s cannith crafter. Put this on test and Ill check the lot myself. But change the type description first. Im not going to go play guessing game over which ones you intended to stack, better things to do, but I can skim through, look for a new type, and check if it took hold sure.

    Im happy to hear this was the intent by the way. I think its smart design to allow itemization opportunities to combat specific threats without continued inflation of general save scaling. A +6 vs Transmutation to combat flesh to stone or a +6 vs Conjure to combat cometfall would both potentially make decent swaps for some ee situations, while smaller versions like +3 Augments would be a great draw to fill out slots. It also opens the door for enhancement passes or similar to add some much needed flair to some trees... for example giving Archmage a +6 vs its own specialty school would be neat (maybe +1/core, or a 3 rank +2/rank at T4 or something).

    Anyhow. Go change the types! BE THOROUGH. Add it to lama. Add some augs, and make some notes for places to include it later like enhancements. Ill be first in line to test it out. Thanks for replying on what seemed to be a case of oblivious design, which is really just (another) case of not enough attention to detail obscuring good design. Im happy to read this, and eager to see it on lama. Good move, if it happens. Cheers.

    ps - you dont actually have to change the type on the back end, like inventing a new type. If its stacking, its stacking. Just change the item description to reflect that, like calling it a "school resistance bonus" or whatever. Nods.

  9. #29
    Community Member PermaBanned's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steelstar View Post
    Effects that provide bonuses to saves - Such as "+X Resistance" items, or Sapphires of Resistance augments - do already stack with effects that provide bonuses to saves from individual schools (such as the +6 to Illusion and Enchantment saves found on the Epic Glimpse the Soul), even if they are the same bonus type. We'll look into a possible wording change to make this more clear.
    Interesting. While it's nice to learn this, it's counter intuitive with the game's general rule of "same type bonuses don't stack." If I may offer a suggestion for simplicity's sake: simply change the Goggle's text to "...provides a stacking +6 bonus to saves versus Illusion and Enchantment." Replacing the word "Resistance" with "stacking" makes it's function instantly clear rather than seemingly worthless.
    I would still like to see... Something that tests character versatility and player adaptability rather than character focus strength and quest knowledge.
    I play the quests for the content of the quests not just as an XP/min merry-go-round.
    Actual play experience is worth infinitely more than theorycrafting...

  10. #30

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    Quote Originally Posted by Systern View Post
    Cannith crafted shards do NOT stack
    Quote Originally Posted by patang01 View Post
    My understand was always that if you have say a resist item it combines all the features as per the description so if you add a separate bonus it's already covered by the resist. +6 enchantment save is huge in addition to resist. And something that makes it definitely viable for low save classes.
    Well, in terms of cannith crafting, "Enchantment Save" shards have a different type: Competence.

  11. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by PermaBanned View Post
    Interesting. While it's nice to learn this, it's counter intuitive with the game's general rule of "same type bonuses don't stack." If I may offer a suggestion for simplicity's sake: simply change the Goggle's text to "...provides a stacking +6 bonus to saves versus Illusion and Enchantment." Replacing the word "Resistance" with "stacking" makes it's function instantly clear rather than seemingly worthless.
    This would definitely be unclear. If you have something giving +2 Resistance bonus to Save vs. Illusion, it WON'T stack with a +4 Resistance bonus to Save vs. Illusion. These are still typed bonuses, they are "just" bonuses to a different statistic on your character (... which is hard to know exists and isn't on the character sheet).

    As stated, we may look into figuring out ways to clarify this. Simply having them be a different bonus type that's never used for "normal" saving throws might be a simple & effective answer, though that doesn't necessarily solve all the problems.

    In the short term, to understand how things work Right Now, the key is that "Will Save vs. Illusion" is a different statistic from "Will Save". "Fortitude save vs. Poison" is also different from "Fortitude save".

    Quote Originally Posted by EllisDee37 View Post
    Well, in terms of cannith crafting, "Enchantment Save" shards have a different type: Competence.
    As far as we know, these are Resistance bonuses, and don't stack with most other "Enchantment Save" items.
    Last edited by Vargouille; 10-22-2014 at 04:06 PM.

  12. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vargouille View Post
    This would definitely be unclear. If you have something giving +2 Resistance bonus to Save vs. Illusion, it WON'T stack with a +4 Resistance bonus to Save vs. Illusion. These are still typed bonuses, they are "just" bonuses to a different statistic on your character (... which is hard to know exists and isn't on the character sheet).

    As stated, we may look into figuring out ways to clarify this. Simply having them be a different bonus type that's never used for "normal" saving throws might be a simple & effective answer, though that doesn't necessarily solve all the problems.

    In the short term, to understand how things work Right Now, the key is that "Will Save vs. Illusion" is a different statistic from "Will Save". "Fortitude save vs. Poison" is also different from "Fortitude save".


    As far as we know, these are Resistance bonuses, and don't stack with most other "Enchantment Save" items.
    Maybe put situational bumps in a hover over popup. SO if I hover over my will save, th eop up box would show my save, but would also show +x vs. Enchantments and +2 vs. Evil. etc etc
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  13. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steelstar View Post
    Cannith Crafted shards stack in the same way I mentioned above; a character wearing an item with a "Will Save +1" shard and an item with an "Enchantment Save +1" item (and nothing else) has +2 against Hold Person (which is an Enchantment spell with a Will save). Not sure offhand what's special about the Parasitic Breastplate (would need to look into it).
    I am not at all sure that is the case. I have seen combat log text indicating I have 2 effects that don't stack, specifically listing my general resistance item and some other named item I have with a +2 will save on (I forget what, I think it's a ring, could be a necklace). Next time I log on I will see if I can track down a character with those kinds of items and I'll file a bug report if I can confirm.
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  14. #34

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    Quote Originally Posted by dunklezhan View Post
    I am not at all sure that is the case. I have seen combat log text indicating I have 2 effects that don't stack, specifically listing my general resistance item and some other named item I have with a +2 will save on (I forget what, I think it's a ring, could be a necklace). Next time I log on I will see if I can track down a character with those kinds of items and I'll file a bug report if I can confirm.
    That example wouldn't stack. You have a Resistance item (+x Resistance Bonus to Will Saves) and a +2 Will Save item on (which is also a Resistance Bonus to Will Saves).

    What we're talking about is a Resistance (+x Resistance Bonus to Will Saves) item and, say, an Enchantment Saves +1 item (a +1 Resistance Bonus to Saves against Enchantment effects, also buildable with Cannith Crafting). One's a bonus to Will saves, the other is a bonus to saves against Enchantments; if the effect you're saving against is an Enchantment AND requires a Will save, the two will stack.

  15. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steelstar View Post
    When calculating your save against, say, Hold Person, the game uses something like: (Total Will Save)+(Bonuses to Saves against Enchantment Spells). They're entirely separate channels, and seem to have worked that way since at least Module 5, if not earlier. The Will Save bonus will apply to every Will save; the Enchantment Save will only apply if the effect you're making a saving throw for is an Enchantment effect. So they won't always apply in exactly the same situations.

    We don't presently have plans to change those channels, but if people are confused we'll look into ways it can be made clearer.
    OK. I certainly had no idea that those "channels" existed.

    So, now we know about "channels", for saves, for spells schools. In how many other situations are there "channels"? AC? Dodge? Spell power? Bonuses to saves other than spell school? Are "traps" their own special channel for saves? This isn't an exhaustive list of questions. We now have no idea what might or might not stack. The very existence of these channels, though clearing up this specific item, has made our understanding of the game as a whole much murkier.

  16. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by SirValentine View Post
    OK. I certainly had no idea that those "channels" existed.

    So, now we know about "channels", for saves, for spells schools. In how many other situations are there "channels"? AC? Dodge? Spell power? Bonuses to saves other than spell school? Are "traps" their own special channel for saves? This isn't an exhaustive list of questions. We now have no idea what might or might not stack. The very existence of these channels, though clearing up this specific item, has made our understanding of the game as a whole much murkier.
    Long term we hope to clarify this more, as it's clearly caused some confusion.

    These things are somewhat like Natural Armor vs. AC. These both increase your chance to avoid being hit, but you can have (for instance) an Insight bonus to AC that stacks with an Insight Bonus to Natural Armor. Natural armor isn't a bonus type, it's a separate statistic that can be modified. Tabletop players may recall that it's possible to increase an existing Natural Armor bonus. Within the mechanical rules, this meant that Natural Armor couldn't be easily done as a mere bonus type, but instead gave birth to a separate statistic. Otherwise if something gave you +2 Natural Armor it wouldn't stack with characters that already had Natural Armor, and it was intended to. (Similar to multiple sources giving +2 Insight bonus to Strength, it wouldn't work to have multiple Natural Armor bonuses to Armor Class -- the Strength bonuses shouldn't stack but the Natural Armor ones should, sometimes, per the pen and paper rules.)

    For saves, there are separate statistics tracked for Disease, Poison, Magic, Traps, Paralysis, Fear, Illusion, Energy Drain, and Sleep (in addition to general Reflex, Fortitude, and Will). Each of these is actually broken up by Reflex, Fortitude and Will.

    This kind of separation largely exists for "older" stats that closely followed pen and paper rules. As another example, Barbarian's get Trap Sense, which is specifically a bonus to Reflex saves vs. traps, making this a separately tracked statistic. (Some of these things were of course judgment calls as to the precise implementation when translating to a video game, of course.)

    We've largely tried to avoid this level of complication for newer statistics such as Dodge or Spell Power.
    Last edited by Vargouille; 10-22-2014 at 06:08 PM.

  17. #37
    Community Member Dagolar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steelstar View Post

    These kinds of statements violate community guidelines, and are also untrue.
    Well, we all know YOU play, Steel!

    Sometimes we're a bit confused about why the design and loot team do certain things, however-
    Say, making Thunderforged so overwhelming in comparison to ML 24 raid or ML28 named weapons; that most (but not all) of our feedback regarding Harper Agent was ignored; basically everything having to do with Caught in the Web ever..

    Not that I'm saying there's an excuse for such comments, but it does feel bit weird to have sudden massive shifts in game balance without word that they're going to be evened out over time; or asking for our feedback and not addressing certain facets:
    Ex, that many of us felt the level HA 20 capstone needed to be more useful than a single 20 second save boost per 5 minutes. (ESPECIALLY since the capstone doesn't get the usual stat and class-theme boosts other paths take [and it's not possible to take two cores due to needing 82 AP to do so, so it's not a balance issue in that regard]). Basically making the capstone a total joke that noone'd ever take, especially given how good recent class paths have been.
    And that's just one of the flaws in HA we noted: Basically everything about spellpower in the tree, utility issues with moment of clarity, Throat Dagger being a SLA instead of a ranged power in a tree based far more on that than spells, lack of clarification on what projectile weapons int-> affects were all other things mentioned that I didn't see responded to.

    It'd be nice to have a class be functional when it's released, rather than waiting for a future pass to fix issues that were obvious on release, as has been the motif over the past few years.

    So, while I can't say the comments are excusable- I totally understand their point of perspective.
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  18. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steelstar View Post
    Effects that provide bonuses to saves - Such as "+X Resistance" items, or Sapphires of Resistance augments - do already stack with effects that provide bonuses to saves from individual schools (such as the +6 to Illusion and Enchantment saves found on the Epic Glimpse the Soul), even if they are the same bonus type. We'll look into a possible wording change to make this more clear.


    There was an issue with Intercession Ward not blocking the Aura of Intercession from one of the Death Knights in the Raid. It should be fixed in the next patch.




    These kinds of statements violate community guidelines, and are also untrue.
    Interesting. There are not statistics on the character sheet to help monitor this, so off tot he combat logs. I felt they were considered the same since it is a 'Resistance' bonus. Not 'Will Save Resistance' and 'Illusion resistance' bonuses. For pen and paper mechanics it is the keyword resistance that is the gate for stacking or not. Since all saves can fall under the Resistance category.

    Changing the character sheet to show a breakdown of where bonuses comes from and any special result values (like will save, will vs enchantments, illusion, etc) will help clarify these things. Then descriptions be damned

  19. #39

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    Quote Originally Posted by Vargouille View Post
    As another example, Barbarian's get Trap Sense, which is specifically a bonus to Reflex saves vs. traps, making this a separately tracked statistic.
    So wait, is that the same Trap Sense that rogues get? Meaning my 15/5 pally/rogue won't get trap sense bonuses in Partycrashers or against Spell Wards, which are traps with will saves instead of reflex?

    Quote Originally Posted by Vargouille View Post
    As far as we know, these are Resistance bonuses, and don't stack with most other "Enchantment Save" items.
    I stand corrected. Checking both the shard machine as well as an actual crafted enchantment save +6 ring, they both say resistance. I have always trusted that they stack, though, and based on what you're saying they do. So all good.


    Not to self-promote too blatantly, but I wouldn't mind seeing the character sheet switched to something like this. (Three images in one post, saves in the second image.)

  20. #40
    Community Member Aliss7's Avatar
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    The wording AND the character sheets need to be much better. Knowing what stacks and doesn't in DDO has always been a big pain in the you know what. I _feel_ things have gotten a little better, but I have _never_ with confidence been able to declare how something stacks just by wording.

    Another example is spell power... does +x to universal spell power stack with a +90 magnetism augment? Reading this thread, I would think they are supposed to, but I'm pretty sure in game that they do not. So ya.

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