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  1. #701
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chai View Post
    Still, when questioning the behavior, you need to question the design as well. Failure to do so addresses the symptom only, and not the cause.

    There are some here poking fun at others playstyles, which are only possible due to design decisions those same people supported hand over fist in the past. This is why they will not address this, because we have had this discussion in the past regarding the designing of irritation into the system in order to make money by inciting folks to pay to circumvent it, and those same folks denied this would ever happen. Now here we are, discussing just that, and outlining its impact on how people play the game.

    Lock, stock, and two smoking barrels.

    Remove the poor design choice - remove the poor behavior that design choice affects and encourages.

    How would changes we suggest affect anyone else who plays this game negatively?
    Point me to a post that contains your suggestions and I'll tell you.

  2. #702
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tscheuss View Post
    False dilemma. That is not the decision you're looking for. Move along.
    I've decided to stop replying to people who insist on making false generalizations about anyone who disagrees with them - some of those generalizations being insulting. There's no point.

  3. #703
    Community Member bartharok's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chai View Post
    So then how does the changes I suggest affect you negatively? I don't believe they would. You would still have fun playing the same way you do now.
    I did not quote your changes, i quoted your claim that xp/min is how the game rewards one.
    Dystopia = utopia achieved

  4. #704
    Community Member Axeyu's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HAL View Post
    Point me to a post that contains your suggestions and I'll tell you.
    This is why this thread is so long. You dont even know what his suggestions are, but you have already made up your mind.
    A rational discussion doesnt interest you at all, does it?

  5. #705
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    fact is , while you guys are discussing this NOW, years ago , when MOTu was released there were intelligent people foreseening that this game would become a xp grind fest, with no player interaction. Now you see the result : Game is more dead than ever (maybe pre f2p era only was worst than now), server merges are REALLY needed (this never happened before) and this game is close to its end. Just hope one day turbine decides to do DDO2, its the only salvation for this game, Pre-Motu era was the best, cya.

  6. #706
    Community Member Chai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bartharok View Post
    I did not quote your changes, i quoted your claim that xp/min is how the game rewards one.
    Game wise yes, its xp/min and loot. Both of which you will attain more quickly if you play the way the game is designed to be played - the grind way.

    What I suggest will let you have the same amount of fun you always had, and be rewarded more game wise as well.
    Historically: If every melee nerf after each melee class revamp was reverted back to its pre-nerf version, which melee build(s) are OP in the current meta?

  7. #707
    Community Member Ungood's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ungood View Post
    There are many people who play DDO that enjoy the game, they enjoy each quest, they enjoy breaking every box, killing every mob, doing all the side objectives, they find this fun, and they only do each quest once.

    These people enjoy the game and do not need to grind to get what they want, they have toons with several PL's not because they care about the PL feats, but because they enjoy the game, the thrill of being able to play every class in kind on the same toon is a joy them. These players do not Grind and they have a Place here in DDO.

    There are other people that really get into the lore of the game, they read all the flavor text, they see how things connect, they try to find all the inside jokes and puns that might happen. They play the game, but also immerse themselves into the game. These players do not Grind, and they have a place here in DDO.

    Other people enjoy building flavor builds, and seeing what kinds of wacky combos they can come up with and see how viable each combo can be, and they love the experiment, to see what they can and can't do, sometimes in the most optimal to the least optimal builds they can think up, some love theme builds and have an army of alts as testament to their efforts. These people do not grind, and they have a place here in DDO.

    DDO allows for many people to play in many ways, so if you are playing in a manner you do not find fun, then the first thing you should be doing is reevaluating your play style not blaming the game for your inability to play in a manner you enjoy.

    an Otto's stone, is really only for the people that want the rewards of the game without playing it, because for some reason or another, they have turned playing the game into a chore for themselves, but this is something they have done to themselves, no one else did it to them. To the person still having fun playing the game, both the Otto stone and if anyone has used it or not, are meaningless to them.

    So, if it matters that much to you, pay up, and be done with it, the door has been opened for you to not have to play in a manner you do not find fun.

    That door was always open, but, for some reason or another it seems people simply do not want to go through the door of "Playing for Fun", so Turbine put in another door for the people that insisted that a game be played only for rewards, and that door came with a cost.

    That doors existence, is the fault of the players wanting to play a game for rewards only as opposed to enjoying the game for the sake of playing a game.
    I have outlined how this game is fun for all.

    Quote Originally Posted by Chai View Post
    Yep, designed grind to incite paid grind circumvention. As ive been outlining for years now, with most who disagree with me here denying it. Turbine could have made moves to make it fun for all, but instead they split their community by keeping it fun for some, and introduced a paid hamster wheel for the rest.

    If you disagree with that, how does the changes I suggested ruin any fun you, or anyone else, are having? Before responding to this, keep in mind I asked you and a few others this same question in the feedback threads regarding ETR, and nowdays those same people who were attempting to poo poo me on that feedback now currently hold up the fact that we can farm heartseeds as a shining example of Turbine making sound player based decisions.

    I can outline how you would have MORE fun, by playing the same way you always do and be rewarded for it more. I don't believe anyone can tell me how the changes I suggest would affect anyone else negatively.
    I've answered this all before.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ungood View Post
    I suppose the same people that would be hurt if I could get a Cleric past life by leveling a Wizard, why should I have to play an actual fighter to get a fighter past life, why can't I level a Monkcher or whatever the OP FotM build is, and just pick the past life feat I want, I mean really, that would not hurt anyone! In fact why should I have to TR to get a past life feat at all, why can't I just farm the EXP with a capped toon and trade that in for a Past Life, no one would be hurt y that either, and it would greatly improve the game. In fact, why stop there, Why should I have to E-TR anyway, why can't I just pay 6 million Karma and buy an e-TR past life feat, and stay at cap, and just keep farming the Karma while staying in the sphere I feel I am the most powerful in. No one gets hurt by that, I stay at 28th, never need to change my gear, remain where I am the strongest, that would be great and no one would get hurt by that. Why should I have to do any of that and who would it hurt if I didn't? In fact, why should there be a First Time, why not an Every Time, why even have a quest ransack mechanic, I should be allowed to run a quest a hundred times in a day and get the same exp each time, that would greatly improve the game the same way you want to improve it, so lets do that, and no one would get hurt, and then in our glory, we can all sit around Farming Wiz-King and Von-3 with our Min/Maxed FotM Builds at cap a hundred times a day and just max out everything we think we want, and believe that would improve the game.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ungood View Post
    Let's be real, doing this would just reduce the desire for P2Skip items like the Otto's stone, as such I don't see their motive to do this. If you don't like the grind, you can bypass it with a store item. It does not get any more "Solved" then that.
    If you want the rewards and don't want to play the game to get them, then paying for them is perfectly viable alternative.

    If you have by some unknown reason opted to play in a manner you do not find fun, why anyone would do this, I have no idea, but, apparently, people do this, then you have no one to blame but yourself, and there is nothing, nothing at all the Devs will ever be able to do, will change that.

    This is a choice you have made to play in a way that is not enjoyable for you, when there are other avenues open to you that you and others admit are more fun, but have for reasons unknown opted to not peruse them.

  8. #708
    Community Member Chai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HAL View Post
    I've decided to stop replying to people who insist on making false generalizations about anyone who disagrees with them - some of those generalizations being insulting. There's no point.
    You mean like assuming wanting a change which will benefit all (have yet to hear how it would hurt anyone) means youre a grinder who hits themselves over the head with a hammer repeatedly?
    Historically: If every melee nerf after each melee class revamp was reverted back to its pre-nerf version, which melee build(s) are OP in the current meta?

  9. #709
    Community Member Axeyu's Avatar
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    Does anyone here actually think bravery bonus and first time completion bonuses are bad and the game would be better without it?
    If not, why dont you think it would still be good for the game after your first epic life? Is there an answer out there other than opportunity cost?

  10. #710
    Community Member bartharok's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chai View Post
    Game wise yes, its xp/min and loot. Both of which you will attain more quickly if you play the way the game is designed to be played - the grind way.

    What I suggest will let you have the same amount of fun you always had, and be rewarded more game wise as well.
    Will it? I cant say for certain, and dont really care one way or the other. But i dispute that xp/min is the reward the game is built around. It may be the reward you are after, but for me the reward is sitting down for a couple of hours and playing the game. The xp is just a bonus for me.
    Dystopia = utopia achieved

  11. #711
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chai View Post
    You mean like assuming wanting a change which will benefit all (have yet to hear how it would hurt anyone) means youre a grinder who hits themselves over the head with a hammer repeatedly?
    Careful, I'm going to add you to the list. I never said any such thing (if you want to respond that I did, please quote). I only responded to people who complained that they didn't like to grind that they shouldn't do it and that doing something you don't like is pretty silly. And I responded to people who said that they MUST do it, that this was false and they had a choice.

  12. #712
    Community Member bartharok's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Axeyu View Post
    Does anyone here actually think bravery bonus and first time completion bonuses are bad and the game would be better without it?
    If not, why dont you think it would still be good for the game after your first epic life? Is there an answer out there other than opportunity cost?
    Bravery bonus = Elites.

    Elites= elitists (sooner or later)

    Elitists = bad

    (Dont take those equations all that seriously)

    I just dont see the point in people rushing off to cap everything as soon as they can, just to sit there complaining that they are not having fun when they get there. Especially since they didnt have much fun getting there either.
    Dystopia = utopia achieved

  13. #713
    Community Member Chai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thrudh View Post
    This is a good point... Are you guys asking that all quests give the exact same xp AND take the exact same amount of time to finish?

    Because how else is Turbine going to keep you from repeating the one best quest over and over and over and over? Because apparently, it's up to Turbine to design the game so that you guys don't bore yourselves to tears, and if any quest has the best xp/min, that's the one you're going run over and over and over.
    They have quest ransack in place for that already.

    Getting rid of BB =/= getting rid of quest ransack. Its means incentivizing higher reward which all can achieve, rather than just the elite difficulty zergers can achieve. Turbine already WAS DOING THIS in the past - by rewarding questing overlevel with a percentage for each level the quest is above the highest level character in the party.

    This way they can design elite for the powergamer, hard for the experienced non powergamer, and normal for the inexperienced non powergamer, without having any stigma surrounding people feeling the NEED to cling onto their BB XP reward (another behavior issue limiting game design due to entitlement). Once that stigma is killed off, Turbine can design the game to be equally rewarding for all playstyles, without negatively affecting anyone elses fun.
    Last edited by Chai; 10-14-2014 at 05:03 PM.
    Historically: If every melee nerf after each melee class revamp was reverted back to its pre-nerf version, which melee build(s) are OP in the current meta?

  14. #714
    Community Member Thrudh's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chai View Post
    How would changes we suggest affect anyone else who plays this game negatively?
    What changes have you suggested? Please list how you would fix eTRing.
    Quote Originally Posted by Teh_Troll View Post
    We are no more d000m'd then we were a week ago. Note - This was posted in 10/2013
    Quote Originally Posted by Eth View Post
    When you stop caring about xp/min this game becomes really fun. Trust me.
    Quote Originally Posted by TedSandyman View Post
    Some people brag about how fast they finished the game. I cant think of a stupider thing to brag about. Or in this game, going from level 1 to level 30 in two days, or however long it takes. I can't even begin to imagine what drives a person to think that is fun. You are ignoring all of the content and options and going for sheer speed. It is like going to a museum and bragging about how fast you made it through. Or bragging about how fast you finished a good steak.

  15. #715
    Community Member Thrudh's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Axeyu View Post
    Does anyone here actually think bravery bonus and first time completion bonuses are bad and the game would be better without it?
    If not, why dont you think it would still be good for the game after your first epic life? Is there an answer out there other than opportunity cost?
    Is that what you guys are asking for? First time completion bonus reset on eTR? Sure, I'll accept that... That's a great way to get people to play varied content. We don't have to reflag everything though do we?
    Quote Originally Posted by Teh_Troll View Post
    We are no more d000m'd then we were a week ago. Note - This was posted in 10/2013
    Quote Originally Posted by Eth View Post
    When you stop caring about xp/min this game becomes really fun. Trust me.
    Quote Originally Posted by TedSandyman View Post
    Some people brag about how fast they finished the game. I cant think of a stupider thing to brag about. Or in this game, going from level 1 to level 30 in two days, or however long it takes. I can't even begin to imagine what drives a person to think that is fun. You are ignoring all of the content and options and going for sheer speed. It is like going to a museum and bragging about how fast you made it through. Or bragging about how fast you finished a good steak.

  16. #716
    Community Member Thrudh's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chai View Post
    They have quest ransack in place for that already.

    Getting rid of BB =/= getting rid of quest ransack. Its means incentivizing higher reward which all can achieve, rather than just the elite difficulty zergers can achieve. Turbine already WAS DOING THIS in the past - by rewarding questing overlevel with a percentage for each level the quest is above the highest level character in the party.

    This way they can design elite for the powergamer, hard for the experienced non powergamer, and normal for the inexperienced non powergamer, without having any stigma surrounding people feeling the NEED to cling onto their BB XP reward (another behavior issue limiting game design due to entitlement). Once that stigma is killed off, Turbine can design the game to be equally rewarding for all playstyles, without negatively affecting anyone elses fun.
    so wait, you want to get rid of BB?

    So what's your plan?
    Quote Originally Posted by Teh_Troll View Post
    We are no more d000m'd then we were a week ago. Note - This was posted in 10/2013
    Quote Originally Posted by Eth View Post
    When you stop caring about xp/min this game becomes really fun. Trust me.
    Quote Originally Posted by TedSandyman View Post
    Some people brag about how fast they finished the game. I cant think of a stupider thing to brag about. Or in this game, going from level 1 to level 30 in two days, or however long it takes. I can't even begin to imagine what drives a person to think that is fun. You are ignoring all of the content and options and going for sheer speed. It is like going to a museum and bragging about how fast you made it through. Or bragging about how fast you finished a good steak.

  17. #717
    Community Member Chai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thrudh View Post
    What changes have you suggested? Please list how you would fix eTRing.
    Its in this thread, buried under multiple pages of accusations of players doing it wrong. Ill reiterate it here.

    Unhinge XP gain from having to be in a specific destiny when it is gained. Turbine has the tech for this, because this is how heroic leveling works. Characters gain bubbles of XP, each of which rewards an AP for any destiny, and the can plug it into any destiny they want to plug it into. Now we can level FP while being in any destiny.

    Casual players will like this because they no longer have to level wizard centric abilities in order to get an FP they are going to use to become more powerful in melee on their fighter, so the immersion factor remains whole.

    Power gamers will like this because they can play their character at top tier power when leveling - which is more fun for them.

    I also iterated what doing away with BB does to the positive, just above the post I quoted for this response. This affects how Turbine can design the entire game, including but not limited to ETR, to benefit everyone, rather than having to choose between one subset of customers or the other.
    Historically: If every melee nerf after each melee class revamp was reverted back to its pre-nerf version, which melee build(s) are OP in the current meta?

  18. #718
    Community Member Chai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thrudh View Post
    so wait, you want to get rid of BB?

    So what's your plan?
    Its in the post you quoted. Give everyone a percentage bonus XP for playing quests above their level.
    Historically: If every melee nerf after each melee class revamp was reverted back to its pre-nerf version, which melee build(s) are OP in the current meta?

  19. #719
    Community Member Axeyu's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thrudh View Post
    Is that what you guys are asking for? First time completion bonus reset on eTR? Sure, I'll accept that... That's a great way to get people to play varied content. We don't have to reflag everything though do we?
    Its what i have been asking for atleast. I havent mentioned any other suggestion else for 15-20 pages.
    No reflags, no lost completions. If making the first time completion reset is too complicated then they can just add a "not played since last ETR" bonus.


    I agree that its a great way to get people to play varied content. I am glad that you say that. Its really beyond me why some people so adamantly oppose this suggestion.

  20. #720
    Community Member Qhualor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Axeyu View Post
    Its what i have been asking for atleast. I havent mentioned any other suggestion else for 15-20 pages.
    No reflags, no lost completions. If making the first time completion reset is too complicated then they can just add a "not played since last ETR" bonus.


    I agree that its a great way to get people to play varied content. I am glad that you say that. Its really beyond me why some people so adamantly oppose this suggestion.
    because when you epic reincarnate you aren't doing a true reincarnate. when ER was first discussed, the devs made it a point to explain that. i still have an issue with ER as it is anyways. if you reincarnate than everything should be reset, but epic reincarnate isn't really a reincarnate. you just landed on a chute and slid back to row 3.
    #MakeDDOGreatAgain

    You are the one choosing not to play alts.

    Casual player now investing way less than I used to into the game, playing 1-3 months at a time and still want nothing to do with Reaper. #improvepuggrouping#alldifficultiesmatter

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