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  1. #61
    Community Member Certon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vargouille View Post
    On the face of it, without additional complexity, this kind of system encourages short-manning as much as possible. Being able to solo a raid (admittedly tough for current epic Abbot) would give 12x as much chance at loot as a full raid.

    Is that desirable?
    I understand there is a fine line between not giving enough and giving too much, as indicated by the Raider's Reward Box situation. Those boxes KILLED the Caught in the Web raid's frequency.

    But apathy kills as well. As someone who used to want the Epic Torc from Sands, I understand how the grind can wipe the luster from the quest for a sweet item--

    This is about giving people stuff without going Monty Haul on them. Greensteel had the perfect balance of itemization and desire along with the carrot insofar as the Thirteenth Eclipse is still run by level 28 toons.

    The trick here is to have multi-tiered items that are powerful, and at each tier evolve into a more useful item with a non-trivial ability (and increasing an items Frost spell crit from 16% to 17% is not that.) Caught in the Web suffered from that problem--the upgrades were marginal at best, and the drop rates of the commendations were abysmal, making the upgrades just not worth it.

    What I'm trying to say is, a crippling fear of power creep can be just as devastating as the power creep itself. People want to feel powerful. They want to vanquish the baddies and take down the villain to much rejoicing. But power is not simply DPS, no matter how much you want it to be. Power is also self-sufficiency, flexibility, and survivability. Standing alive after being surrounded by umpteen monsters and taking them all down, even if it takes awhile, is a great feeling. That's why the alert system is such a pain. But that is a digression for another day...

  2. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by UurlockYgmeov View Post
    disagree with both.

    spending more of the Dev's limited resources to change something that isn't broken and to go back and recode all those chests? Bad idea. Don't fix what isn't broken because you often end up breaking it (just look at the history of Ascension Chamber)
    No, I'm referring to only the raid chests in the newer endgame content where drop rates are absurdly low - basically only deathwyrm, fire peaks and mark of death. So it would be only 3 chests. Not a lot of coding work.

    Not sure what you're refering to as not broken, but end game raiding scene right now is horribly broken - just compare it to how great raiding was when cap was 20. It badly needs fixing, to do it we need to limit bypass use.

  3. #63
    Community Member IronClan's Avatar
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    First of all, increase the drop rates and watch the people leave and the LFM's dry up faster with even less repetition of content in direct proportion to the rate of increase in drops, we've already seen this happen with sellable loot. Sadly in a game that is designed for pure meta gaming repetition is utterly required to keep a player base around. If there was procedural content or even just less static elements this would be less of a problem, but alas that ship is sailed and they pretty clearly have no intent (or resources) to do much about that.

    Math says that if X number of repetitions are required to get a fair probability of getting the loot you are after, that no matter how you do it you will have to lead/start/join and complete X number of raids. Raid timers do not lower the number of LFM's, they just compress the most plentiful numbers of them (the peak activity) into a shorter span. You still took on 11 other players, and exactly the same total number of raids will be run over the life span of the game.

    IMO later on when the raid becomes "just another raid" like say VON5-6 the timers allow LFM's for that raid to fill quicker, VON5-6 is up almost every hour or two on Thelanis... an old raid that has only two selling points (XP and eSoS obviously) besides being fun... yet it is incredibly easy/fast to fill and popular.

    I hate to harp on the same stuff over and over... but the Dev's really could learn some lessons from VON5-6... If there's amazing stuff in a raid people will run it a lot, and if the XP is good for the time investment even people who want nothing from it will run it.

    I don't know if I agree with the forum meme that massive numbers of players hit 20 to 40 timers in the first week and then never run the raid again. Personally I'd guess it's something like 15% and most of them I'd guess are raiding guilds.

    I use Timer bypasses a fair amount, but I use them to get two raids in MAYBE three, in a night that I can play (once or twice a week) instead of only getting 1 raid in. So to me this idea that they need to be restricted is just going to kill my main use for them. it will also LITERALLY keep me from being able to play DDO as much when I have free time...

    in other words it would put me in a position where I can't do any of the raids I like because I already used bypasses for the night... So instead of playing DDO it's "oh well whats on TV?" this is NOT something that will benefit the game IMO... in fact IMO this would be just as harmful as the perceived benefit of not allowing dedicated players to compress their raiding into a shorter peak of activity.

    I strongly suspect that many people who do a burst of bypass raiding in the first couple weeks get worn out on it quickly and end up doing it weekly at a more normal pace anyway for alts or to get a second item they want or etc.. It's human nature for interest to wane and balance things out. As evidence I would point out that it's trivially easy to get a Deathwyrm or Firepeaks up and filled still despite how hard some have hit the "Ox yolk" of timer bypasses. If players REALLY hit raids hard; got what they wanted, and never set foot in it again then Shroud would be nonexistent on the LFM panel... Which is not the case.

  4. #64
    Community Member IronClan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Certon View Post
    I understand there is a fine line between not giving enough and giving too much, as indicated by the Raider's Reward Box situation. Those boxes KILLED the Caught in the Web raid's frequency.

    But apathy kills as well. As someone who used to want the Epic Torc from Sands, I understand how the grind can wipe the luster from the quest for a sweet item--

    This is about giving people stuff without going Monty Haul on them. Greensteel had the perfect balance of itemization and desire along with the carrot insofar as the Thirteenth Eclipse is still run by level 28 toons.

    The trick here is to have multi-tiered items that are powerful, and at each tier evolve into a more useful item with a non-trivial ability (and increasing an items Frost spell crit from 16% to 17% is not that.) Caught in the Web suffered from that problem--the upgrades were marginal at best, and the drop rates of the commendations were abysmal, making the upgrades just not worth it.

    What I'm trying to say is, a crippling fear of power creep can be just as devastating as the power creep itself. People want to feel powerful. They want to vanquish the baddies and take down the villain to much rejoicing. But power is not simply DPS, no matter how much you want it to be. Power is also self-sufficiency, flexibility, and survivability. Standing alive after being surrounded by umpteen monsters and taking them all down, even if it takes awhile, is a great feeling. That's why the alert system is such a pain. But that is a digression for another day...
    ^^^ I agree with this and think it's very well stated.

  5. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vargouille View Post
    Interesting concept that may have rage-inducing implications.


    On the face of it, without additional complexity, this kind of system encourages short-manning as much as possible. Being able to solo a raid (admittedly tough for current epic Abbot) would give 12x as much chance at loot as a full raid.

    Is that desirable?
    Thank You Varg!

    Ok it works like this. Raider with $$ want the Loot ASAP!!! Current design the only way that can happen is buy 20 raid timers and go to work raiding the same instance 5 times a night. Especially if your guild can self support a EN run quickly maybe all 20 times in a row to get the the 20 Reward list.

    Ok, Why rush to the 20th list? Well We know that looting an actual drop is very very small. For instance, I DID have a Battleragers Harness drop for me in Deathwyrm... in run number 40+... in 3 months of raiding it... Wow , that sucks for me. Especially sense I had already took it on the 20th List ../sadface.

    We are in the mindset (and rightly so) that we will not loot an actual drop, but instead must rely on the 20th List to get items. We CAN loot 20 Lists FASTER then we get drops in chests. So in the end, Yes, my raid timers produced MORE and FASTER loot then chest rates. 2 to 1 for me in Deathwyrm. AND I can continue this pattern forever as long as I have the $$$ to back it up. I just paid 3000TP (30 bucks?) for an item of my choice. So in essence, Pay to Win.

    I remember there was a point when the 20th List was a supplement to Chest Drops. Now the 20th is the standard loot method.

    IMO i would do this.

    Raid Timers should have a 18Hr timer on it. Can use a timer right after the raid, but it goes back on Timer. Example: Fire Peak, Use Raid Timer, Fire Peak again, Raid timer is cooling down for 17:40. This will allow 2 same raids every day. That is 600%(?) increase in running a zone with timers Vs the natural 3 day wait.

    HOWEVER this MUST include an increase in chest loot. Lets take the game back to actual Loots in chests shall we? The % should be meaningful (.42% AKA Less then HALF of 1%, is not meaningful)

    Loot should be Per item droppable, not per list generated. Put another way, there is a 3% drop raid on each item on every loot list. 2/3 items COULD end up on a single list, but the numbers would have to line up and would be very very rare. Statistically speaking the chances of rolling 3%(Battlerager harness) + another 3%(Dark Diversion) back to back, is like 1%? Very very small.

    Also running higher tiers should increase the % somewhat. EH and EE should matter.

    EN = 3% drop on each item.
    EH = 6%
    EE = 9%

    As it currently stands, expecting a Chest Loot is not realistic. We rely on the 20th List and grind it out with Unrestricted Raid Timers. It unbalances the game and is unhealthy for longevity.

  6. #66
    Community Member UurlockYgmeov's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by axel15810 View Post
    No, I'm referring to only the raid chests in the newer endgame content where drop rates are absurdly low - basically only deathwyrm, fire peaks and mark of death. So it would be only 3 chests. Not a lot of coding work.

    Not sure what you're refering to as not broken, but end game raiding scene right now is horribly broken - just compare it to how great raiding was when cap was 20. It badly needs fixing, to do it we need to limit bypass use.
    any change can result in breaking things. Rule of Unintentional Consequences shows up in raids : hence the Ascension Chamber being one of those that is notoriously colicly and tempermental.

  7. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by IronClan View Post
    First of all, increase the drop rates and watch the people leave and the LFM's dry up faster with even less repetition of content in direct proportion to the rate of increase in drops, we've already seen this happen with sellable loot. Sadly in a game that is designed for pure meta gaming repetition is utterly required to keep a player base around. If there was procedural content or even just less static elements this would be less of a problem, but alas that ship is sailed and they pretty clearly have no intent (or resources) to do much about that.

    Math says that if X number of repetitions are required to get a fair probability of getting the loot you are after, that no matter how you do it you will have to lead/start/join and complete X number of raids. Raid timers do not lower the number of LFM's, they just compress the most plentiful numbers of them (the peak activity) into a shorter span. You still took on 11 other players, and exactly the same total number of raids will be run over the life span of the game.
    .
    Truth is in Argo PUGs for the TF raids are now very scarce.

    Not everyone raids. Raiders are probably a minority in DDO, among other things because there is not much of a raiding scene anyway. A raider would just get fed up and leave the game pretty soon.

    People have proved again with this raid that given nowaday's mentality in DDO raiding is about getting in as many fast completions as possible.

    This raid can be completed in under 10 minutes in EN or so I am told. Drop rates are so abysmally low that it does not matter if you go EN-EH-EE, you probably won't get what you want. You just raid EN a bunch of times and go for the 20th. Do that a couple times for whatever two toons you want to gear up. And then you are sick of the raid because you run it to death and it is just trivial grinding in EN.


    This sort of approach ends up deteriorating the game:

    How the last updates have worked is: initial crazy number of LFMs before they nerf drop rates. Then content is dead. Who runs e3BC? Look at the LFM, so darn hard to spot it. People getting used to simply rolf stomping any sort of content and a culture of tactics and cooperation completely disappears.

  8. #68
    Community Member Thayion516's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by UurlockYgmeov View Post
    any change can result in breaking things. Rule of Unintentional Consequences shows up in raids : hence the Ascension Chamber being one of those that is notoriously colicly and tempermental.
    As business professionals, this may be true, but it is still the right thing to do to try and fix/improve it. It is never right to just let something stay broken. If we have too, we try and fix it again until we get it right.

    That's what we get paid to do.

  9. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by Certon View Post
    Greensteel had the perfect balance of itemization and desire along with the carrot insofar as the Thirteenth Eclipse is still run by level 28 toons.
    Definitely, Shroud is a critical hit on DDO raid design. It have very well defined phases, each phase ends with a relevant reward (tier X mats, chance for shard), and even when the level cap was 16, it was a popular raid BECAUSE it did not required you to finish it to get rewards. Back at that time, even a tier 2 greensteel weapon/accessory was awesome. A tier 3 was fantastic, but you could work on tier 1-2 while learning, avoiding Harry until you get a weapon that could damage him.

    No other raid in DDO have this kind of tiered chests mid-raid. I think that was the main reason for Shroud success. Shroud at cap 16 was hard enough that even high tier raiders could not guarantee a completion every run, but EVERYONE was running the raid. Even in the cases they were doing only up to phase 3.

    The only raids that did something similar was Tempest Spine, with most of the named loot into the mid-quest chests, and Chrono, many years after. Tempest Spine is another beloved raid within the DDO community, and Chrono, while is a great raid, have the problem of being a level SIX raid, in a paid pack, with a timer. It epic version was well received, but I don't like Chrono being a level 6 raid. At all. Most people overlevel it before they even remember it is there.

    Cannith and TF raids don't have intermediate rewards. You need to complete the raids every time if you want to upgrade your weapon. For that reason alone, they will nmever reach Shroud status, and as soon as their weapons gets overshadowed by anything, it will become a dead raid (like LoB and MA are today).
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  10. #70
    Community Member Oxarhamar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BigErkyKid View Post
    What he is asking is you guys kept some raid loot at lower chances of dropping than if bypassers had not existed.

    I think that it is fair to say that a lot of players, particularly the more involved raiders, have decided that given current drop rates and difficulty scaling / reward its "optimal" to just repeat many times at lower difficulties. When people farmed their TF weapons, they did not go for EE runs, rather, dozens of EN runs.

    Now in order to farm EN at the speed that veterans are going, you need to use bypassers.

    Whether this end situation (ENx1 buzillion being best) is a design choice or a result of the madness with event cards and their store samples (and duping) is something that only you guys know.
    Doubtful

    Considering all 3 of the newest Riads drop EVERY ItEM in the 20th list.

    Compared to older raids Von 6 ADQ where players may still be chasing items after 100+ runs.

    If the goal of drop rates was to push the sales of timers those items would not be in the 20th list and exclusively available in the chest.

    20 Raids without timers is 60 days.

  11. #71
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    Dev's, here's the short version:

    If you leave loot drops as they are, YOU WILL CONTINUE TO HEMORRHAGE PLAYERS. Burnout is a real thing, and needing 20 runs per loot piece WILL cause it.

    If you leave loot drops as they are and add a raid bypass timer timer, YOU WILL LOSE PLAYERS.

    If you DOUBLE loot drops, YOU WILL CONTINUE TO HEMORRHAGE PLAYERS. See line one.

    If you increase loot drops to the recommended 1/3 EN, 1 EH, 3 EE MINIMUM drops, AND add the timer on the timer bypass, YOU WILL HAVE HAPPY PLAYERS.


    I posed this to the most active end game players (a players council if you will, though one with no direct dev interaction) across 6 of the larger guilds on Ghallanda, and it was universally praised as a solution more perfect than Ryan Reynolds as Deadpool.
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  12. #72
    Community Member Oxarhamar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BigErkyKid View Post
    Truth is in Argo PUGs for the TF raids are now very scarce.

    Not everyone raids. Raiders are probably a minority in DDO, among other things because there is not much of a raiding scene anyway. A raider would just get fed up and leave the game pretty soon.

    People have proved again with this raid that given nowaday's mentality in DDO raiding is about getting in as many fast completions as possible.

    This raid can be completed in under 10 minutes in EN or so I am told. Drop rates are so abysmally low that it does not matter if you go EN-EH-EE, you probably won't get what you want. You just raid EN a bunch of times and go for the 20th. Do that a couple times for whatever two toons you want to gear up. And then you are sick of the raid because you run it to death and it is just trivial grinding in EN.


    This sort of approach ends up deteriorating the game:

    How the last updates have worked is: initial crazy number of LFMs before they nerf drop rates. Then content is dead. Who runs e3BC? Look at the LFM, so darn hard to spot it. People getting used to simply rolf stomping any sort of content and a culture of tactics and cooperation completely disappears.
    this is why some of us keep telling you to make friends, join a guild, form a static group, put up your own LFMs.


    trying to catch a ride on the coat tails of pugs you could be waiting forever.

  13. #73
    Community Member IronClan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by doomteen007 View Post
    Dev's, here's the short version:

    If you leave loot drops as they are, YOU WILL CONTINUE TO HEMORRHAGE PLAYERS. Burnout is a real thing, and needing 20 runs per loot piece WILL cause it.
    So you get your loot in 5 repetitions of the content... instead of 20... exactly what do expect people to do at that point? What you're saying defies cause and effect... when you make it easy to get stuff you get less people playing and bigger attrition.

    Did you know the only steady period of player activity growth happened during the shard/scroll/seal 20 cap era of the game? Why? Because it took a LONG TIME TO GET YOUR GEAR, so players kept playing and new players getting to cap built onto this end game scene and started to raid and get their end game gear actually slowly INCREASED DDO's population...

    When you give players what they want they have no more incentive to play... they move on to other games where they DON'T have all the stuff. This is the basic logic of the skinners box which is the behavioral theory that describes why and how we keep playing games like MMO's.

    When you could buy the newest loot (between MOTU and U21) you could literally get the loot without owning the pack or playing it a single time... The attrition rate was the highest of any MMO I know of (about 33%) that was not under rumors of shutting down or in maintenance mode.

  14. #74
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vargouille View Post
    On the face of it, without additional complexity, this kind of system encourages short-manning as much as possible. Being able to solo a raid (admittedly tough for current epic Abbot) would give 12x as much chance at loot as a full raid.

    Is that desirable?
    No, not like that. Personally, I'd like at least *one* guaranteed drop... or, how about this: Let players turn in commendations of heroism for items. ofc, that's only useful if a raid actually drops commendations of heroism. CitW should, but rarely does...

  15. #75
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    Default since you didnt ask, heres my 50 cents

    there is certainly a tough dynamic in play here and there is no really obvious solution.

    On the one hand, players asked for years for raid bypasses. I wouldnt be surprised to see that the first post after originally announcing the DDO Store was asking for raid bypasses. They are a very popular item, and rightly so. They also are probably still one of the top selling items (not everyone has cards or timers left). Reducing the use of this item, that as varg pointed out is an item many people have paid for, is very dangerous water.

    On the other hand the ability for players, particularly high end game players, to grind out what they want from a raid in 2 weeks never to run it again is a serious problem. It leads those players to wait impatiently for the next thing and/or burn out on the raid. they have no desire to run the raid any more after a much shorter than traditionally seen. It also leads to a "generational" gap in the raiding scene. Historically, these are the players that learn the raid and teach it to others, who teach it to others and so on. You end up with several generations of players running the raid. I would hazard a guess (without really paying attention) that players being able to "finish" a raid so fast before the next generation is ready to run it severely limits the ability of that generation to get into the raid as much as they used to.

    So whats the solution? Its probably not full proof, but this humble thinker would look at adding some kind of carrot to the raiding scene. Not just the new raid - ALL of the (epic) raids. This carrot should piggy back off the quest ransack feature. Lets say if your quest ransack xp penalty on the particular raid is more than 50% you can't get it.

    That carrot could be raid loot - it would allow for higher drop rates without as many concerns about drop rates needing to account for raid bypasses (i have no idea if they do or not, but would surmise it would be so). But that doesnt really get us anywhere since the assumption is you will only get raid loot at 20th runs.

    Heroic Commendations? it has potential, but that system is only used in 2 raids which have a function. It would require developing other functions for the items.

    Comms of Valor? there's more potential here, but I think you again need to develop more things to do with them that are meaningful. I'm only using them for hearts right now and the heart seeds on lvl 28 completions doesnt make this compelling for me.

    A new ingredient? I am not a fan of new ingredients, but something that can be used for fun compelling things? limiting the ingredient to ALL epic raids (seriously, all of them) has some interesting potential. Their drop amounts can be adjusted based on the raid. Its another barter system (again, more barters? jeez) but imagine if you could turn in varying amounts of these epic raid ingredients for some really fun stuff. Things like actual raid items (who's cost could be adjusted based on which raid its from like their drop rates), Tomes of all sorts of sizes (they are already in the store), astral shards?, hearts of all kinds of wood (cough lesser cough), xp/slayer/guild pots, mirrors of glammering? - there are a lot of possibilities to explore down this route and it opens the possibility of new life to older epic raids (seriously, if this route is taking, all epic raids get the epic raid ingredient in appropriate amounts). Varying purchase items can have appropriate costs relative to each other and the chem to get them. And there's a real incentive to run raids - even ones you are "done" with - and not just run them, but only run them a limited time per toon. Hey, i could even see these epic raid ing as being BTC.

    and there's absolutely nothing stopping you from running the raid 20 times in a weekend.
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  16. #76
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    Quote Originally Posted by pjstechie View Post
    there is certainly a tough dynamic in play here and there is no really obvious solution.

    On the one hand, players asked for years for raid bypasses. I wouldnt be surprised to see that the first post after originally announcing the DDO Store was asking for raid bypasses. They are a very popular item, and rightly so. They also are probably still one of the top selling items (not everyone has cards or timers left). Reducing the use of this item, that as varg pointed out is an item many people have paid for, is very dangerous water.

    On the other hand the ability for players, particularly high end game players, to grind out what they want from a raid in 2 weeks never to run it again is a serious problem. It leads those players to wait impatiently for the next thing and/or burn out on the raid. they have no desire to run the raid any more after a much shorter than traditionally seen. It also leads to a "generational" gap in the raiding scene. Historically, these are the players that learn the raid and teach it to others, who teach it to others and so on. You end up with several generations of players running the raid. I would hazard a guess (without really paying attention) that players being able to "finish" a raid so fast before the next generation is ready to run it severely limits the ability of that generation to get into the raid as much as they used to.

    So whats the solution? Its probably not full proof, but this humble thinker would look at adding some kind of carrot to the raiding scene. Not just the new raid - ALL of the (epic) raids. This carrot should piggy back off the quest ransack feature. Lets say if your quest ransack xp penalty on the particular raid is more than 50% you can't get it.

    That carrot could be raid loot - it would allow for higher drop rates without as many concerns about drop rates needing to account for raid bypasses (i have no idea if they do or not, but would surmise it would be so). But that doesnt really get us anywhere since the assumption is you will only get raid loot at 20th runs.

    Heroic Commendations? it has potential, but that system is only used in 2 raids which have a function. It would require developing other functions for the items.

    Comms of Valor? there's more potential here, but I think you again need to develop more things to do with them that are meaningful. I'm only using them for hearts right now and the heart seeds on lvl 28 completions doesnt make this compelling for me.

    A new ingredient? I am not a fan of new ingredients, but something that can be used for fun compelling things? limiting the ingredient to ALL epic raids (seriously, all of them) has some interesting potential. Their drop amounts can be adjusted based on the raid. Its another barter system (again, more barters? jeez) but imagine if you could turn in varying amounts of these epic raid ingredients for some really fun stuff. Things like actual raid items (who's cost could be adjusted based on which raid its from like their drop rates), Tomes of all sorts of sizes (they are already in the store), astral shards?, hearts of all kinds of wood (cough lesser cough), xp/slayer/guild pots, mirrors of glammering? - there are a lot of possibilities to explore down this route and it opens the possibility of new life to older epic raids (seriously, if this route is taking, all epic raids get the epic raid ingredient in appropriate amounts). Varying purchase items can have appropriate costs relative to each other and the chem to get them. And there's a real incentive to run raids - even ones you are "done" with - and not just run them, but only run them a limited time per toon. Hey, i could even see these epic raid ing as being BTC.

    and there's absolutely nothing stopping you from running the raid 20 times in a weekend.
    Edit: withdrawn to avoid another infraction ....
    Last edited by moo_cow; 10-07-2014 at 02:30 PM.

  17. #77
    Death's Dominator Eth's Avatar
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    You can never establish an 'endgame' if every new raid you bring out gets beaten to death before the next one even comes out. This has been true ever since raid timer bypasses exist.

    I also don't see how the new raid has any longevity. Worst case you run as many 20th as you need different items out of it per toon.
    All raids should offer something that has value besides named loot.
    Thelanis - Ethforged - Etherar - Fjirty --- Mitis Mors
    Ghallanda - Ethrayne - Ethryne --- Omnipresence
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  18. #78
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    Surely given how much von56 gets run an easy answer is xp?

    I've had discussions with people why they don't think that is the answer and I still don't quite get why it isn't. Because I can still get a regular von56.
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  19. #79
    Death's Dominator Eth's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MeliCat View Post
    Surely given how much von56 gets run an easy answer is xp?

    I've had discussions with people why they don't think that is the answer and I still don't quite get why it isn't. Because I can still get a regular von56.
    XP can be an incentive, but that shouldn't apply for the high level raids, because no one cares about XP at cap.

    I wouldn't mind if they ramp up XP for the older raids, so you can run them at level with streak, which can still make them challenging, but worth running them.
    Last life did an EE Von5 with streak and it was 380k XP, so very worth running it.
    Thelanis - Ethforged - Etherar - Fjirty --- Mitis Mors
    Ghallanda - Ethrayne - Ethryne --- Omnipresence
    Youtube channel: http://www.youtube.com/channel/UCKVn...wLuzB2Q/videos

  20. #80
    Community Member janave's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eth View Post
    XP can be an incentive, but that shouldn't apply for the high level raids, because no one cares about XP at cap.

    I wouldn't mind if they ramp up XP for the older raids, so you can run them at level with streak, which can still make them challenging, but worth running them.
    Last life did an EE Von5 with streak and it was 380k XP, so very worth running it.
    Von is still somewhat attractive for a few twink loot, some of us still hope that a sos shard may drop for us before the universe collapses.

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