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  1. #1
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    Default Great Mechanics with Bad Numbers

    First, I'd like to applaud the dev team for their efforts- they've kept this game going for almost 9 years, the content updates pseudo steady, the ddo store lag free, and the exploits entertaining. I have had many fun times with guildies and friends in game, and am extremely grateful to the dev team for providing this game.

    On that note, I'd like to make a simple request- multiply the drop rates by 2000.

    My guildies and I have approximately 60 completions between us (not counting overlapping runs), and have seen a total of 3 items drop. That means, and yes I know this is a small sample size- but I'm not sure a larger one would be against my point, 720 pulls on the chest. 3 items from 720 pulls = 1 / 240, or 0.0042% chance of getting a drop, which quite frankly, is preposterous. I cannot stress how vehemently I oppose running a raid where you expect to get nothing but a completion- it was like that with last raids, and it killed the mood of the raid. Instead of shroud, where you ALWAYS walk away closer to an item, or most other raids that drop SOMETHING every run, and keep the excitement up about WHO would get the loot, we have this absurd drop rate that means we walk in expecting to see 20 runs of NO loot, and that's moronic. You have a raid that is FUN, but there's got to be a loot incentive to run it, and not the 'on your 20th' incentive.

    There's a d**n end chest for a reason.
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  2. #2
    Community Member Nayus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by doomteen007 View Post
    First, I'd like to applaud the dev team for their efforts- they've kept this game going for almost 9 years, the content updates pseudo steady, the ddo store lag free, and the exploits entertaining. I have had many fun times with guildies and friends in game, and am extremely grateful to the dev team for providing this game.

    On that note, I'd like to make a simple request- multiply the drop rates by 2000.

    My guildies and I have approximately 60 completions between us (not counting overlapping runs), and have seen a total of 3 items drop. That means, and yes I know this is a small sample size- but I'm not sure a larger one would be against my point, 720 pulls on the chest. 3 items from 720 pulls = 1 / 240, or 0.0042% chance of getting a drop, which quite frankly, is preposterous. I cannot stress how vehemently I oppose running a raid where you expect to get nothing but a completion- it was like that with last raids, and it killed the mood of the raid. Instead of shroud, where you ALWAYS walk away closer to an item, or most other raids that drop SOMETHING every run, and keep the excitement up about WHO would get the loot, we have this absurd drop rate that means we walk in expecting to see 20 runs of NO loot, and that's moronic. You have a raid that is FUN, but there's got to be a loot incentive to run it, and not the 'on your 20th' incentive.

    There's a d**n end chest for a reason.
    I thought it was CitW but that one isn't fun

  3. #3
    Community Member FURYous's Avatar
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    I agree, I have never seen an item drop having run it a few times and hearing all the complaining from everyone that has run it.

    12 person raid, is it unreasonable to have one item drop? That would give you on average one item per twelve runs and keep you interested in the raid as you would see loot dropping for someone. right now i gotta say I am losing interest, why burn myself out running the same thing over and over just so Turbine can sell me raid timer resets (daily dice rolls)?

  4. #4
    Community Member relenttless's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FURYous View Post
    I agree, I have never seen an item drop having run it a few times and hearing all the complaining from everyone that has run it.

    12 person raid, is it unreasonable to have one item drop? That would give you on average one item per twelve runs and keep you interested in the raid as you would see loot dropping for someone. right now i gotta say I am losing interest, why burn myself out running the same thing over and over just so Turbine can sell me raid timer resets (daily dice rolls)?
    I think you have nailed it.
    No need to actually sell the items in the store, just sell the passes needed to obtain them within any sort of reasonable timeframe.
    Seems to be a pattern emerging here, given that the Dragon raids are identical in this respect.
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  5. #5
    Community Member janave's Avatar
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    You should probably add what content you are having problem with, tho it probably wont help, at least it is elss mysterious and more direct feedback.

    For example we and probably the devs too know that DQ is extremely stingy on loot drops, seriously that is one raid you may as well expect 20 runs each time you want a "CHANCE" at a single item. That is now by far ourdated and useful only situationally..

  6. #6
    Community Member Bird's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by doomteen007 View Post
    3 items from 720 pulls = 1 / 240, or 0.0042% chance of getting a drop
    1 / 240 = 0.0042 = 0.42% (not 0.0042%, that would be insane)

    IMHO:
    For non raid items:
    - if it's BtC then it should have high drop rate (like 20%-50% chance, depending on the importance of the item, more important items should have lower drop rate)
    - if it's BtA/BtCoE then it should have low drop rate (like 10% for a specific item, that means the chest will drop an item like 20% of time if it can drop 2 different items)
    - if it's Unbound/BtAoE then it should have very low drop rate (like 3% for a specific item, 33 runs should be enough and if not then just buy it from ASAH )

    For raid items:
    - current drop rates look ok to me (full group should get an item for sure though), but 20th completion should have ALL on the list (so that you would be 100% sure to get it before TR)
    Last edited by Bird; 10-04-2014 at 06:50 AM.

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by doomteen007 View Post
    First, I'd like to applaud the dev team for their efforts- they've kept this game going for almost 9 years, the content updates pseudo steady, the ddo store lag free, and the exploits entertaining. I have had many fun times with guildies and friends in game, and am extremely grateful to the dev team for providing this game.

    On that note, I'd like to make a simple request- multiply the drop rates by 2000.

    My guildies and I have approximately 60 completions between us (not counting overlapping runs), and have seen a total of 3 items drop. That means, and yes I know this is a small sample size- but I'm not sure a larger one would be against my point, 720 pulls on the chest. 3 items from 720 pulls = 1 / 240, or 0.0042% chance of getting a drop, which quite frankly, is preposterous. I cannot stress how vehemently I oppose running a raid where you expect to get nothing but a completion- it was like that with last raids, and it killed the mood of the raid. Instead of shroud, where you ALWAYS walk away closer to an item, or most other raids that drop SOMETHING every run, and keep the excitement up about WHO would get the loot, we have this absurd drop rate that means we walk in expecting to see 20 runs of NO loot, and that's moronic. You have a raid that is FUN, but there's got to be a loot incentive to run it, and not the 'on your 20th' incentive.

    There's a d**n end chest for a reason.
    Since they introduced raid bypass timers the only way to keep people running a raid is to make the drop rates very very very low. If the drop rates weren't incredibly low then people would be done running the raid in 2 weeks due to bypass timers. Old abbot use to have drop rates of 7% or so and you would normally see 1-2 items per run on average. Now you see a named item every 15 runs or so, hard to really tell since half the people in the party are always ransacked.

    They really need to get rid of bypass timers or limit the amount we can actually use so they can increase the drop rates. I know no one would agree with that statement, but as I see it the only way to get an item is to be very lucky or to rush to 20 completions to get your items and I find that incredibly stupid.

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by moo_cow View Post
    Since they introduced raid bypass timers the only way to keep people running a raid is to make the drop rates very very very low. If the drop rates weren't incredibly low then people would be done running the raid in 2 weeks due to bypass timers. Old abbot use to have drop rates of 7% or so and you would normally see 1-2 items per run on average. Now you see a named item every 15 runs or so, hard to really tell since half the people in the party are always ransacked.

    They really need to get rid of bypass timers or limit the amount we can actually use so they can increase the drop rates. I know no one would agree with that statement, but as I see it the only way to get an item is to be very lucky or to rush to 20 completions to get your items and I find that incredibly stupid.
    For the whole raid, not individuals, this is what I think the dro-rates should be.

    Normal: 1/3 chance an item drops
    Hard: 100% 1 item drops
    Elite: 3 items drop

    Some of us still play multiple toons, having to run this 60ish times on 5-7 characters is insane.

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bridge_Dweller View Post
    For the whole raid, not individuals, this is what I think the dro-rates should be.

    Normal: 1/3 chance an item drops
    Hard: 100% 1 item drops
    Elite: 3 items drop

    Some of us still play multiple toons, having to run this 60ish times on 5-7 characters is insane.
    I would be fine with this type of drop rate as long as we were limited on timers. Because while this would be nice, it would not produce any longevity for the content. Longevity of raids has gone down since they took away seal/shards/scrolls and with every raid that comes out, it becomes obsolete for most end gamers after 1-2 months. Which is why I like hard drop rates. (this is my opinion, of course)

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by moo_cow View Post
    I would be fine with this type of drop rate as long as we were limited on timers.
    Since it's too late to remove them from the game, perhaps timers should only be usable once per day?

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bridge_Dweller View Post
    Since it's too late to remove them from the game, perhaps timers should only be usable once per day?
    I don't know if you are trolling me or not, but I would actually like that lol. Assuming that drop rates would increase a bit then I would love it.
    Last edited by moo_cow; 10-06-2014 at 02:05 PM.

  12. #12
    Developer Vargouille's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bridge_Dweller View Post
    Since it's too late to remove them from the game, perhaps timers should only be usable once per day?
    Interesting concept that may have rage-inducing implications.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bridge_Dweller View Post
    For the whole raid, not individuals, this is what I think the dro-rates should be.

    Normal: 1/3 chance an item drops
    Hard: 100% 1 item drops
    Elite: 3 items drop

    Some of us still play multiple toons, having to run this 60ish times on 5-7 characters is insane.
    On the face of it, without additional complexity, this kind of system encourages short-manning as much as possible. Being able to solo a raid (admittedly tough for current epic Abbot) would give 12x as much chance at loot as a full raid.

    Is that desirable?

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vargouille View Post
    Interesting concept that may have rage-inducing implications.
    Since when has that stopped you?

    I don't think it would be bad IF the drop-rates weren't so terrible. We raided for years without timer bypasses and the end-game was much better then.

    Quote Originally Posted by Vargouille View Post
    On the face of it, without additional complexity, this kind of system encourages short-manning as much as possible. Being able to solo a raid (admittedly tough for current epic Abbot) would give 12x as much chance at loot as a full raid.

    Is that desirable?
    it's better than the way things currently are. The mechanic for the last three raids is run 20 normal completions since nothing ever drops anyway. This isn't good for the end-game.

    You're still better off not soloing/shortmanning raids on the higher settings because they take longer. But heck, if you're ubber enough to 4-man EE Mark or Death I doubt you need any loot from the raid anyway.

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bridge_Dweller View Post

    We raided for years without timer bypasses and the end-game was much better then.
    Non-arguable.

  15. #15
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    Maybe if EE offered loot that was distinct from normal, then people wouldn't uberzomgstomp normal over and over again.

    As far as I can tell, nobody is chain stomping EE abbot right now. What would be the point, since it gives nothing extraordinary?
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  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vargouille View Post
    Interesting concept that may have rage-inducing implications.


    On the face of it, without additional complexity, this kind of system encourages short-manning as much as possible. Being able to solo a raid (admittedly tough for current epic Abbot) would give 12x as much chance at loot as a full raid.

    Is that desirable?
    I believe he is trying to say for a 12 man group. So if 1 person solos it on ee, then they would be receiving a 1/4 chance. If it was a full 12 man group it would be 3 items. That 3 may be a little high, but still. (correct me if I'm wrong, dweller) This would not make it a desirable raid to shortman, quite the opposite actually.

    And honestly using timers once a day would not anger me, it would make me a little happier that the longevity of this content would be more then a month. Do you know how many people have run this raid over 40-60 times and got their items they need already?

  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by moo_cow View Post
    I believe he is trying to say for a 12 man group. So if 1 person solos it on ee, then they would be receiving a 1/4 chance. If it was a full 12 man group it would be 3 items. That 3 may be a little high, but still. (correct me if I'm wrong, dweller) This would not make it a desirable raid to shortman, quite the opposite actually.
    That works to.

  18. #18
    Community Member Takllin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vargouille View Post
    Interesting concept that may have rage-inducing implications.


    On the face of it, without additional complexity, this kind of system encourages short-manning as much as possible. Being able to solo a raid (admittedly tough for current epic Abbot) would give 12x as much chance at loot as a full raid.

    Is that desirable?
    You reap what you sow. You wanted to trivialize some major, some minor parts of the game to make a few more bucks here and there.

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  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Takllin View Post
    You reap what you sow. You wanted to trivialize some major, some minor parts of the game to make a few more bucks here and there.
    This. Raid timer bypasses are solely in the game as a convenience to players (which ultimately shortens the lifespan of content, something Turbine should very much be concerned about) and to earn Turbine $$$$$. I've used timers from time to time as they certainly have their uses, but IMO this is certainly not a healthy item ingame for the longevity of DDO's endgame.

    As far as raid loot drops, EE needs love and has needed love for a while. Beyond forum posts from advanced players completing EE raids in X length of time or personal achievement, there is zero motivation to push for higher difficulties when running a raid. I'd suggest the following rough percentages for each player in a raid group to have a raid loot item drop (Disregarding loot gems, loot weekends, etc and like for simplicity):

    • Normal: 1/9 chance (~1.333 items per 12 man raid)
    • Hard: 1/6 chance (~2 items per 12 man raid)
    • Elite: 1/3 chance (~4 items per 12 man raid)
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  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vargouille View Post
    Interesting concept that may have rage-inducing implications.


    On the face of it, without additional complexity, this kind of system encourages short-manning as much as possible. Being able to solo a raid (admittedly tough for current epic Abbot) would give 12x as much chance at loot as a full raid.

    Is that desirable?
    running raids with zero drops is undesirable if elite had 100% chance to drop 1-2 pieces it would be a better incentive imo if someone can and wants to solo an epic elite raid why shouldn't they get a guaranteed piece of loot or 2
    Quote Originally Posted by MadFloyd View Post
    Fernando has yet to even suggest a nerf of anything.
    Oh and by the way (referring to your sig), we aren't nerfing the Torc.

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