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  1. #81
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eth View Post
    XP can be an incentive, but that shouldn't apply for the high level raids, because no one cares about XP at cap.

    I wouldn't mind if they ramp up XP for the older raids, so you can run them at level with streak, which can still make them challenging, but worth running them.
    Last life did an EE Von5 with streak and it was 380k XP, so very worth running it.

    Yes but there are a body of people who do care about xp - so if you create enough critical mass out of this you have something happening at 'end game'. This in turn gives a space for newer players to aim for and grow into. So maybe not so much individually for people who care about xp, but generally for the community as a whole.


    I just think that at the moment we're stuck in no man's land. We're not at 30. There is no "end game" therefore to be had. People who hate TRing do what they want to do then go afk from the game. I know quite a few excellent players who loathe TRing and they just don't play atm. (And a couple who don't like it and still play, one notable example in mind :P ). So maybe this problem is currently insoluble. When they do finally make 'end game' by creating level 30 they better have a lot of content to go with it.
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  2. #82
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bridge_Dweller View Post
    For the whole raid, not individuals, this is what I think the dro-rates should be.

    Normal: 1/3 chance an item drops
    Hard: 100% 1 item drops
    Elite: 3 items drop

    Some of us still play multiple toons, having to run this 60ish times on 5-7 characters is insane.
    I might agree if failure, rather than success, were more or less the expectation when running a raid. Also, if DDO raids were much longer.

    As things stand though, most players go into a raid expecting to get that end chest and even if they don't, they generally fail rather quickly.

  3. #83
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    Quote Originally Posted by axel15810 View Post
    This. I don't think there would be near as much rage as many would think. Many in the community would applaud the change, and most others would understand and accept it. I don't see anyone rage quitting over it - people are smart enough to understand just how bad for the game unrestricted timer bypasses are.
    It would have to be with new timers, purchased (etc.) from the time of the change forward though. Because I can tell you with no doubt that people will rage about items they already have bought being nerfed into something less than they were when they decided to spend their money on them. Frankly, I don't even know if the games TOS would successfully cover that sort of post purchase change, despite what it may say.

  4. #84
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    Quote Originally Posted by doomteen007 View Post
    Dev's, here's the short version:

    If you leave loot drops as they are, YOU WILL CONTINUE TO HEMORRHAGE PLAYERS. Burnout is a real thing, and needing 20 runs per loot piece WILL cause it.

    If you leave loot drops as they are and add a raid bypass timer timer, YOU WILL LOSE PLAYERS.

    If you DOUBLE loot drops, YOU WILL CONTINUE TO HEMORRHAGE PLAYERS. See line one.

    If you increase loot drops to the recommended 1/3 EN, 1 EH, 3 EE MINIMUM drops, AND add the timer on the timer bypass, YOU WILL HAVE HAPPY PLAYERS.
    ...if they release a new raid, with new desirable loot, every month or so.

    The problem they have is that raids actually don't drop near enough items. If every character could upgrade an iteration of every gear slot from every raid things would be much healthier. Drop rates could be respectable while maintaining re-playability due to the desire to get a lot of drops from each raid.

  5. #85
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eth View Post
    ecause no one cares about XP at cap.
    That's simply not true. Loads of people care about XP at cap because they still have to deal with the poorly conceived and executed Epic Destiny system.

    Remember people, you are you, you are not everyone else!

  6. #86
    Death's Dominator Eth's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by General_Gronker View Post
    That's simply not true. Loads of people care about XP at cap because they still have to deal with the poorly conceived and executed Epic Destiny system.
    Why would you level those at cap and not during epic levels? One ETR caps 3.25 destinies.
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  7. #87
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    Quote Originally Posted by General_Gronker View Post
    That's simply not true. Loads of people care about XP at cap because they still have to deal with the poorly conceived and executed Epic Destiny system.

    Remember people, you are you, you are not everyone else!
    if you are using raids to level destinies you're doing it wrong.

  8. #88
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gremmlynn View Post
    It would have to be with new timers, purchased (etc.) from the time of the change forward though. Because I can tell you with no doubt that people will rage about items they already have bought being nerfed into something less than they were when they decided to spend their money on them. Frankly, I don't even know if the games TOS would successfully cover that sort of post purchase change, despite what it may say.
    I don't see this being a problem if they gave players plenty of forewarning that this change is going to happen. Say 3 months. Would give players enough time to use their timers they've purchased in farming fashion if that's what they want them for.

  9. #89
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gremmlynn View Post
    ...if they release a new raid, with new desirable loot, every month or so.
    Just not possible, not enough Staff to do that. We're lucky if we get 4 new raids a year. It's usually 3.

  10. #90
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    I think the droprates for items on EN is really fine as it is.It does take a while, and its supposed to, youre running on easy mode.Pump the chances to drop to 4x of EN on EH and 10x of EN on EE.
    Getting a full group to run a EE raid is a much harder task than most think, on EH it may be that 3-4 well built characters can carry a group of characters that would otherwise be running on EN.On EE? not a chance.I havent even completed the dragon raids on EE yet.With only an usual 4-5 guild people to run the raid, we are left with pugging for the rest, and the current argonessen pug scene is as it follows:

    30% of people are unable to read and fully understand an instruction with a complexity degree of 'Take the north portal' or 'Do not hit a certain enemy' even after its repeated about 10 times.
    20% of people pike.Simply pike, nothing said, nothing done.Then leave the raid after its done.
    20% of people are drunken 40+ years old dudes who harass our female guildie.
    25% of people are either quiet or respectfully players that can listen and will be helpfull, but simply arent ready for anything above EN.Anyways, a respectfull player is always usefull not matter what they are using.
    3% of people are ready for EH+ raids, but their attitude is so disgusting that allowing them in the party is a mistake and we usualy denny em on the spot.
    2% of people are ready for EH+ and are respectfull and usefull.

    So yea, like i said.Buff the drop rate for EH and EE raids.getting a group for them is almost a miracle.
    Give every person a gun and the richest man is the one that sells crutches

  11. #91
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mryal View Post
    I think the droprates for items on EN is really fine as it is.It does take a while, and its supposed to, youre running on easy mode.Pump the chances to drop to 4x of EN on EH and 10x of EN on EE.
    Getting a full group to run a EE raid is a much harder task than most think, on EH it may be that 3-4 well built characters can carry a group of characters that would otherwise be running on EN.On EE? not a chance.I havent even completed the dragon raids on EE yet.With only an usual 4-5 guild people to run the raid, we are left with pugging for the rest, and the current argonessen pug scene is as it follows:

    30% of people are unable to read and fully understand an instruction with a complexity degree of 'Take the north portal' or 'Do not hit a certain enemy' even after its repeated about 10 times.
    20% of people pike.Simply pike, nothing said, nothing done.Then leave the raid after its done.
    20% of people are drunken 40+ years old dudes who harass our female guildie.
    25% of people are either quiet or respectfully players that can listen and will be helpfull, but simply arent ready for anything above EN.Anyways, a respectfull player is always usefull not matter what they are using.
    3% of people are ready for EH+ raids, but their attitude is so disgusting that allowing them in the party is a mistake and we usualy denny em on the spot.
    2% of people are ready for EH+ and are respectfull and usefull.

    So yea, like i said.Buff the drop rate for EH and EE raids.getting a group for them is almost a miracle.
    Hit me if you are doing a raid in Argo. My guild is too small / we play different times, I am left PUGing.

    I promise I'll be in between the 25% of listeners but weak and the 2% :P

    What guild is this?

  12. #92
    The Hatchery Mryal's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BigErkyKid View Post
    Hit me if you are doing a raid in Argo. My guild is too small / we play different times, I am left PUGing.

    I promise I'll be in between the 25% of listeners but weak and the 2% :P

    What guild is this?
    Storm's End...you? maybe we've alredy found you before.
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  13. #93
    Community Member Takllin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mryal View Post
    I think the droprates for items on EN is really fine as it is.It does take a while, and its supposed to, youre running on easy mode.Pump the chances to drop to 4x of EN on EH and 10x of EN on EE.
    Getting a full group to run a EE raid is a much harder task than most think, on EH it may be that 3-4 well built characters can carry a group of characters that would otherwise be running on EN.On EE? not a chance.I havent even completed the dragon raids on EE yet.With only an usual 4-5 guild people to run the raid, we are left with pugging for the rest, and the current argonessen pug scene is as it follows:

    30% of people are unable to read and fully understand an instruction with a complexity degree of 'Take the north portal' or 'Do not hit a certain enemy' even after its repeated about 10 times.
    20% of people pike.Simply pike, nothing said, nothing done.Then leave the raid after its done.
    20% of people are drunken 40+ years old dudes who harass our female guildie.
    25% of people are either quiet or respectfully players that can listen and will be helpfull, but simply arent ready for anything above EN.Anyways, a respectfull player is always usefull not matter what they are using.
    3% of people are ready for EH+ raids, but their attitude is so disgusting that allowing them in the party is a mistake and we usualy denny em on the spot.
    2% of people are ready for EH+ and are respectfull and usefull.

    So yea, like i said.Buff the drop rate for EH and EE raids.getting a group for them is almost a miracle.
    All the more reason to merge servers. We couldn't even fill an EE MoD the first two days when we opened it up to puggers

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  14. #94
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gremmlynn View Post
    I might agree if failure, rather than success, were more or less the expectation when running a raid. Also, if DDO raids were much longer.

    As things stand though, most players go into a raid expecting to get that end chest and even if they don't, they generally fail rather quickly.
    That IS the case for EE, and many EH groups. It took a handpicked group of the raiding end game "top-tier" players on Ghallanda five tries (~3 hours) to complete EE. We will get faster and better, but it's not something we expect to complete each run yet, and many/most EH pugs don't complete EH first time.
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  15. #95
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    Quote Originally Posted by IronClan View Post
    So you get your loot in 5 repetitions of the content... instead of 20... exactly what do expect people to do at that point? What you're saying defies cause and effect... when you make it easy to get stuff you get less people playing and bigger attrition.

    Did you know the only steady period of player activity growth happened during the shard/scroll/seal 20 cap era of the game? Why? Because it took a LONG TIME TO GET YOUR GEAR, so players kept playing and new players getting to cap built onto this end game scene and started to raid and get their end game gear actually slowly INCREASED DDO's population...

    When you give players what they want they have no more incentive to play... they move on to other games where they DON'T have all the stuff. This is the basic logic of the skinners box which is the behavioral theory that describes why and how we keep playing games like MMO's.

    When you could buy the newest loot (between MOTU and U21) you could literally get the loot without owning the pack or playing it a single time... The attrition rate was the highest of any MMO I know of (about 33%) that was not under rumors of shutting down or in maintenance mode.
    Wrong. People have many characters, and most people want multiple items / character. At the proposed rates, we are looking at each person getting ~5 items in 40 EH runs (40 EH runs is no joke either), and with the average person wanting at LEAST 3 items, you're looking at no less than 20 runs if lucky, PER CHARACTER. I personally have 5 characters to gear, and 4 seems to be the average for the people in my guild and the other 4 guilds in our TeamSpeak. That means NO LESS than ~120 runs (5 chars x 3 items = 15 items, 5 items in 40 runs), instead of 300 runs- so if you cut down on how often I can run the raid to around 1/day/char, still looking at over a month. However, this is simply a breakdown of how long you can expect the content to be run, not where your logic breaks down.

    Why you are wrong: This content is FUN. This raid is the most fun raid in the last ~2 years, so people who havent run this into oblivions burnout in the pursuit of loot will continue to run it because we enjoy it! And if we get our items, we can then pass dropped items to those who need them. I personally saw this when the cap was 20: I ran ELOB well after I had my gear made, because it was entertaining, good to run with the guild, and allowed me to contribute to others by helping them build their items. Same thing with EChrono. This content is tough enough (in a great way) on EE that it's fun to run, and people need stuff from it- all that's missing is the loot drops (carrot, if you will) to make it feel rewarding, and not like a huge waste of time.

    Which, is what this thread is really all about. DDO is a video game, and like all video games, it is a colossal waste of time. Sure, we learn some things in some games that have a real life impact (team work, strategy, quick analysis of situations and faster decision making times), but at the end of the day, every minute I spend playing DDO is a minute I wasn't meeting a girl, advancing my career, etc- video games don't produce anything for the time and money we put into them. Why do we do them? Because they are fun, and hit the reward centers of our brains- but with raid drops as they are, and the time it takes to advance skyrockets, it simply shines a spotlight on how much of a waste of time this video game is, and with our reward centers not getting tapped as much, our chemical disposition toward continuing to waste time on this game is decreased.
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  16. #96
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vargouille View Post
    We don't have time for 99% of the things tinfoil hats protect against, we have real work to do. =D
    Have you considered adding tinfoil hats as a cosmetic item?

  17. #97
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    Quote Originally Posted by BigErkyKid View Post
    Hit me if you are doing a raid in Argo. My guild is too small / we play different times, I am left PUGing.

    I promise I'll be in between the 25% of listeners but weak and the 2% :P

    What guild is this?
    Finally

  18. #98
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    Speaking as someone who raids infrequently and doesnt' use bypasses, it is VERY hard to get in a group for a raid, because there are very few raid groups posted. That's Argo, EU evening time, anyway. That's why I raid infrequently, in fact.

    I don't know how much of that is attributable to those who raid often blowing through new raids with timers and getting bored so if I'm not in during the first few weeks I can forget it, or what. I also have precisely one piece of named loot from a raid that is not shroud - and it's from Titan, so useless (the shortsword). It dropped my one and only run in there. I might have something from Tempest Spine. But that's it. I've run VoN a LOT. I've run CiTW maybe 15 times and the only loot I have from there came from the free chest. 20 Completions has always felt way out of reach for me. We will not speak of The Shroud, at which I persevered. I still have the mental scars *shudder*.

    So yes, I would like a better shot at loot, certainly. But only if that can realistically be done without making hardcore raiders blow through the content even faster than they already do - because I'd like to see more raid groups posted in general and I think a slower pace might help with that, in terms of how often you can actually run a raid, rather than making drop rates worse. Raid timers were there for a good reason so I also think bypasses SHOULD be more limited than they are. But such a change should apply only to new bypasses bought, not existing ones. No one needs to get ripped off here.

    1 guaranteed drop in a full 12 man raid, as was suggested early in the thread, *sounds* fair on the face of it, yes, and certainly makes loot achievable for the likes of me - wishy washy casuals, just to be clear. I've also never hidden the fact that I hate RNG systems when used for extreme outside chances, because I hate farming. So I should be all for it, clearly.

    But actually, I think 1 drop per full 12 man raid is probably really very high when you consider how some people attack their raid completion counter with bypasses. I also don't think the likes of me necessarily DESERVE that high a shot at named raid loot, much though I do very much want the shinies. These aren't quest named items after all, they're *raid* named items. A: the items should be correspondingly more awesome (loot pass, please Devs), and B: as such it should be more rare than 1 per run in a full group.

    Now, I don't want to see a major grind either, because I'm a slacker casual, natch. So I think I'd rather see something like:

    1. named items drop rates be on an escalator, tracked by character completions (e.g. +2% chance of a named drop per completion, maybe builds up to a maximum like a 'loot streak' until you get a named item in any raid). I am motivated by progress, or the possibility of it. 20th completion as a finish line with the same random chance per run in between 20ths is just a horrible, demotivating thing for me. But if my chances were steadily increasing with each run...? Oooh... that *just one more run might do it* feeling is there for that.

    2. Any *new* raid timers sold from now on put on their own 24hr timer so that a: those who've paid for them as they were should not be ripped off and b: new raids won't get blown through quite so quickly which does make it needlessly hard for casuals to get on the ladder. Possibly change them so when you use one it just reduces any raid timers you have by 24hrs, with a 24 hr cooldown on using another bypass. Does that work or is that OP and counterproductive again? Brain tired now.

    3. I'd like to see maybe one or two lootgen slots per chest in raids be replaced with more interesting loot tables which only include things like Astral Shards, XP and renown boosts, rest shrines, gold seal hirelings, all that kind of stuff. Doesnt' have to be top tier rewards, just be nice if raids gave you definitely useful stuff each time. Make it use the same loot table as the daily silver dice roll.

    Something along those lines anyway.

    Yes, of course this reduces some store revenue, but if it makes raids more appealing to run in general... then I'm all for it. Frequent open raid scene is good for the health of the game. Healthy game = moar cash overall, hopefully. Not much of a business case I guess, but it's all I got.
    Last edited by dunklezhan; 10-07-2014 at 06:24 PM.
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  19. #99
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    Quote Originally Posted by MeliCat View Post
    Yes but there are a body of people who do care about xp - so if you create enough critical mass out of this you have something happening at 'end game'. This in turn gives a space for newer players to aim for and grow into. So maybe not so much individually for people who care about xp, but generally for the community as a whole.


    I just think that at the moment we're stuck in no man's land. We're not at 30. There is no "end game" therefore to be had. People who hate TRing do what they want to do then go afk from the game. I know quite a few excellent players who loathe TRing and they just don't play atm. (And a couple who don't like it and still play, one notable example in mind :P ). So maybe this problem is currently insoluble. When they do finally make 'end game' by creating level 30 they better have a lot of content to go with it.
    One of the problems with "End Game" is .. you know .. its the "End". Level Cap. Maximum XP Achieved. Otherwise it is just "Getting to End Game", that is where EE VON5/6 is at. Its worth massive XP for a lv 24(?) quest. Lv 24 quests are not end game. Its easy to run and the powercreep has easily over taken it.

    However, Not comparable with EE Fire Peaks. That zone will punish you in a sub-optimal group. If i get the living snot beat out of me I expect 7% loot drops and 2% on a +6 tome.

  20. #100
    2015 Players Council Claver's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pjstechie View Post
    So whats the solution? Its probably not full proof, but this humble thinker would look at adding some kind of carrot to the raiding scene. Not just the new raid - ALL of the (epic) raids. This carrot should piggy back off the quest ransack feature. Lets say if your quest ransack xp penalty on the particular raid is more than 50% you can't get it.
    I've always thought it would be helpful to have a Raid Completionist mechanic that tracks the number of raid completions on EVERY RAID IN THE GAME through reincarnations/ past lives. You must complete each Raid X number of times including new raids added to the game to get the rewards.

    The rewards and increments are arbitrary. What is important is the concept of encouraging people to run every raid in the game at all levels and to eventually see benefit through multiple lifetimes (TRs) of raiding.

    The rewards I would prefer would be an additional AP point for enhancements or perhaps even fate points for Epic Destinies.

    10 Raid Completions (All Raids) +1 AP
    25 Raid Completions (All Raids) +1 AP
    50 Raid Completions (All Raids) + Fate Point
    100 Raid completions (All Raids) +1 Fate Point

    and so on

    EDIT: Just to be clear, this would not be retroactive. The intent is to invigorate the current raiding scene. People would have to run The Hound, Titan, Demon Queen 10 times starting today rather than look to the past.
    Last edited by Claver; 10-20-2014 at 07:33 AM.

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