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  1. #41
    Community Member UurlockYgmeov's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vargouille View Post
    Interesting concept that may have rage-inducing implications.
    oh yeah - the pitchforks and torches would be out... :P

    Seriously - when you get a group that can do a raid - after the long wait (sometimes hours) - it is nice to be able to whack out a couple runs. Or say you are teaching a raid like heroic Ascension Chamber - nice to be able to continue to teach.


    Quote Originally Posted by Vargouille View Post
    On the face of it, without additional complexity, this kind of system encourages short-manning as much as possible. Being able to solo a raid (admittedly tough for current epic Abbot) would give 12x as much chance at loot as a full raid.

    Is that desirable?
    No - however raids should be completable (for the general rule - exceptions apply) with only 9. The bonus for having full raid group is more dps/abilities/resources/etc. The bonus for fewer is dungeon scaling.
    Last edited by UurlockYgmeov; 10-06-2014 at 05:38 PM. Reason: my kobold powered spell checker is on Union Break was standing in line to buy a Raid Timer Bypass

  2. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vargouille View Post
    Neither your nor I need complicated tinfoil hat conspiracies to figure out why touching Raid Bypass Timers may cause rage. The proposal was to change how a paid-for item works, in a way that may be considered a "nerf" by players. (We know some players may not have paid for some of all their Bypasses, but that isn't really relevant.)
    You have a point, but timer bypasses as well as insanely horrific drop-rates are greatly responsible for killing what was once a great end-game in DDO. While not the only cause their impact is significant.

    And to the rest of you mooks put the snarking response on hold, we're actually coming up with some good ideas here.

  3. #43
    Community Member Ilundel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vargouille View Post
    Interesting concept that may have rage-inducing implications.


    On the face of it, without additional complexity, this kind of system encourages short-manning as much as possible. Being able to solo a raid (admittedly tough for current epic Abbot) would give 12x as much chance at loot as a full raid.

    Is that desirable?
    You probably weren't here, but way back when the raid loot system used to be similar to that, where you had 2 items in the chest and 2 different stones to give to players for looting said item . Surprise surprise, my guild used to shortman everything. Heck we would 4 man everything at maximum, cuz who would run a full raid of 12 for 2 items when you could split into groups of 4 and have better chances at your gear.

    To the OP, I doubt that all characters in that raid bothered to switch after "ransack", probably wanting to get to 20 as quick as they could, so technically that would mean 3 items out of 12*8*3 chests (or 288 chests) so 1/96 for 1.04% chance. Granted that's still extremely low, would much rather the drop rate be around 10%...

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  4. #44
    Community Member UurlockYgmeov's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vargouille View Post
    Neither your nor I need complicated tinfoil hat conspiracies to figure out why touching Raid Bypass Timers may cause rage. The proposal was to change how a paid-for item works, in a way that may be considered a "nerf" by players. (We know some players may not have paid for some of all their Bypasses, but that isn't really relevant.)

    We're generally amused at how much work and extra hurdles players think we go through for something that's complicated enough to begin with. We don't have time for 99% of the things tinfoil hats protect against, we have real work to do. =D ... I gotta leave that 1% open, right? Wouldn't want to actually shut down all of the fun conspiracy theories.

    PS: I don't actually understand what line of thought leads to the conclusion quoted here. I don't even know if you think bypass timers give you more loot or less loot. That's OK, though! Carry on.

    /unofficiallynotconfirmingnordenyingiguess
    I'm a 1%er!

    ;p

    However, would be great if jewels of fortune, dragonmark of finding, pirate maps (and maybe even guild bash the breakables) would grant stacking +1% (+2% for large and huge jewels of fortune) to the rare drop rates.

  5. #45
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    If you were to make a change to how raid timer bypasses work to limit how many times a day someone could run a raid, maybe you should consider rewarding completion at higher difficulties; with raid timer bypasses.

    I propose that running a raid on Epic Elite offers a chance to get a Timer bypass, say 25% of the time. Running on Epic Hard gives a 5% chance. Norm gives no chance. These bypasses are usable without restriction. They would only drop if you DIDN'T get a named loot drop.

    You might need to make then un-passable to prevent abuse by multi-boxers.

    Call this a chance at a consolation prize.

  6. #46
    Community Member Ovrad's Avatar
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    There's no denying that timer bypasses has greatly hurt the raid scene in the long run, everyone knows that.

    I'm sure a big part of the player base could settle on some limitation on the bypass, even if some would rage a bit about it. And let's face it, there's a massive supply of bypasses out there that came from the card duping, so you wouldn't really be losing much sales by limiting the use...

  7. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vargouille View Post
    Neither your nor I need complicated tinfoil hat conspiracies to figure out why touching Raid Bypass Timers may cause rage. The proposal was to change how a paid-for item works, in a way that may be considered a "nerf" by players. (We know some players may not have paid for some of all their Bypasses, but that isn't really relevant.)

    We're generally amused at how much work and extra hurdles players think we go through for something that's complicated enough to begin with. We don't have time for 99% of the things tinfoil hats protect against, we have real work to do. =D ... I gotta leave that 1% open, right? Wouldn't want to actually shut down all of the fun conspiracy theories.

    PS: I don't actually understand what line of thought leads to the conclusion quoted here. I don't even know if you think bypass timers give you more loot or less loot. That's OK, though! Carry on.

    /unofficiallynotconfirmingnordenyingiguess
    I believe he is saying that you guys use such low drop rates because we have bypass timers. And most players would assume this is true, we went from 1-2 items dropping on heroic abbot, to 1 item per 15 runs. NO ONE is going to wait 3 days in between runs and run it 60 times, and with the current drop rates people need 60 runs so they can get the 3 items they want on their 20th runs. So its hard not to assume you guys introduced low drop rates because of have raid timers.

  8. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ovrad View Post
    There's no denying that timer bypasses has greatly hurt the raid scene in the long run, everyone knows that.

    I'm sure a big part of the player base could settle on some limitation on the bypass, even if some would rage a bit about it. And let's face it, there's a massive supply of bypasses out there that came from the card duping, so you wouldn't really be losing much sales by limiting the use...
    This. I don't think there would be near as much rage as many would think. Many in the community would applaud the change, and most others would understand and accept it. I don't see anyone rage quitting over it - people are smart enough to understand just how bad for the game unrestricted timer bypasses are.
    Last edited by axel15810; 10-06-2014 at 04:57 PM.

  9. #49
    Community Member oberon131313's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bridge_Dweller View Post
    For the whole raid, not individuals, this is what I think the dro-rates should be.

    Normal: 1/3 chance an item drops
    Hard: 100% 1 item drops
    Elite: 3 items drop

    Some of us still play multiple toons, having to run this 60ish times on 5-7 characters is insane.
    maybe there could be some kind of item on the ground near the end chest that only the party leader could pick up, and those items would basically be 'keys' to the chest, and then the party leader could trade them to players for this guaranteed loot proposal.
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  10. #50
    Community Member Qhualor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vargouille View Post
    Neither your nor I need complicated tinfoil hat conspiracies to figure out why touching Raid Bypass Timers may cause rage. The proposal was to change how a paid-for item works, in a way that may be considered a "nerf" by players. (We know some players may not have paid for some of all their Bypasses, but that isn't really relevant.)

    We're generally amused at how much work and extra hurdles players think we go through for something that's complicated enough to begin with. We don't have time for 99% of the things tinfoil hats protect against, we have real work to do. =D ... I gotta leave that 1% open, right? Wouldn't want to actually shut down all of the fun conspiracy theories.

    PS: I don't actually understand what line of thought leads to the conclusion quoted here. I don't even know if you think bypass timers give you more loot or less loot. That's OK, though! Carry on.

    /unofficiallynotconfirmingnordenyingiguess
    I love it when you guys give it back to us

    oh I know what it could mean if you guys messed with the timers or totally took them out of the store, but it just proves there is no going back. I am glad you commented on this one particular tinfoil hat conspiracy because some of us actually believe the game is balanced around store products due to their popularity, namely raid timer bypass. the bypass doesn't guarantee loot, but it does speed up completions for 20th rewards, increased chances at loot (like rolling on loot or having it passed to you in chest) and decreasing the amount of time spent raiding for loot that you want. you obviously know the numbers better than I do, but I can only speak from experience at how things are in game. I know many people farming epic Orchard quests and epic Abbot raid for loot and raid timer bypass has allowed for some of them to have 20+ completions already in what.. a week? I just hope epic Orchard doesn't become another E3BC. despite my tinfoil hat conspiracies that are 99% of the time undisputed by Turbine, I actually care about the longevity of the raid and the game as a whole.
    #MakeDDOGreatAgain

    You are the one choosing not to play alts.

    Casual player now investing way less than I used to into the game, playing 1-3 months at a time and still want nothing to do with Reaper. #improvepuggrouping#alldifficultiesmatter

  11. #51
    Community Member FURYous's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bridge_Dweller View Post
    You have a point, but timer bypasses as well as insanely horrific drop-rates are greatly responsible for killing what was once a great end-game in DDO. While not the only cause their impact is significant.

    And to the rest of you mooks put the snarking response on hold, we're actually coming up with some good ideas here.
    The bottom line on this is, history has proven that unless one of two things happen, turbine will ignore your suggestions:

    1) it generates more revenue for the game (impact on the game doesn't matter, money talks.)
    2) enough people with pitchforks and torches show up to make turbine think they may lose revenue from people leaving.

    Having a logical and well thought out presentation of valid improvements to the game have failed 100% of the time.

    This content could have been great and lasted months if the raid had the proper incentives. If I thought I had a chance of loot I would have run the raids at a good clip and not pushed myself to the point that I am now sick of it. I ran it about 20 times, completed 13 or so of them, most on EN but some on EH and one on EE. I have yet to see one item drop. I have in the last week seen ONE item linked in guild that someone else got for their 20th.

    This impacts my desire to play at all. For now I am just waiting for EQ next to come out. I am tired of this.
    Last edited by FURYous; 10-06-2014 at 05:09 PM.
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  12. #52
    Community Member bbqzor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vargouille View Post
    Interesting concept that may have rage-inducing implications.
    Its not really interesting, its just base logic applied to raid design.

    Look, Fire Peaks and Deathwyrm have 3 items. That only appeals to a really tiny subset of characters. As a result, you wind up running them a lot on one guy, rather than once on many guys. So it encourages timer use. That you also need more phlogs than you can reasonably get even in 20 runs with using the 20th reward on them for anyone trying to craft over get an item, well, thats even worse. Bottom line, if youre doing these raids, youll probably need timers to approach it in a reasonable time frame.

    Something like Mark of Death, tons of items. Youll need a lot of runs on a lot of guys. The incentive to use raid timers goes down with that situation. Its a better setup, appealing to more people, and putting much less pressure on timer spam.

    But in both cases, the raid loot has to actually drop. Way back in the day, when the game was designed, the intention was for a raid to generate 2 items per 12 man run. A 16% chance of loot per person per run. With difficulty adjustments, that was eventually changed to 15% norm, 20% hard, 25% elite. In other words, 2 items on norm, 2-3 on hard, 3 on elite. Over time that has decayed TREMENDOUSLY. The reasons vary from "we didnt have time for a big loot table" to "well these items are really good so theyre extra rare" to "people win too fast and we want it to take longer"... but whatever the excuse is, theyve just become so rare with so much farming that its a spam fest.

    Now, to actually see loot, youre basically camping the 20th list. Yea, some guy, some where, might get some item on some run. But its not like old school reaver or whatever, where you WOULD see items. Would you get the exact one you wanted before 20? Maybe, maybe not. But youd pull an item for someone. Or at least see items pulled on a regular basis.

    The problem is two fold. One, the raids need enough items to support a larger range of characters desiring rewards from the raid. Two, the items need to actually drop from the raid. I could go cite each raid and the progression of how we got here but it really doesnt matter. Youre moving in the right direction with Mark of Death. Its got the volume of loot to keep people there, on whatever character, for a long time. It just needs actual drop rates to encourage higher difficulty play (and discourage timer spam because you might actually get something without a 20th).

    Limiting timer use is only going to hurt people who are only able to log on 1-2 days a week and may want to limit themselves to one event on one character for any hope of getting items. Or, the great many folks who, from what I see, attend guild raids run on a regular schedule of sorts. The number of lfms which are "soandsos guild raid night" is extremely high. Yes, it will stop the "20 in a row in an evening" guys... but those guys are the minorty, and are going to get the items in whatever format you do. I wouldnt build the system around them. Dont hurt the little guys struggling to progress as it is.

    (For people that have one singular completionist super character, theyre in the timer boat either way so thats somewhat of an incongruity... and loot which only drops on EE is a TERRIBLE idea, thats a whole other discussion Ill have if comes to that but yea, terrible. Higher difficulty = better odds, and enough itemization support that people want to be there on many builds/characters, thats how it should be).


    Quote Originally Posted by Vargouille View Post
    On the face of it, without additional complexity, this kind of system encourages short-manning as much as possible. Being able to solo a raid (admittedly tough for current epic Abbot) would give 12x as much chance at loot as a full raid. Is that desirable?
    No. There are so many reasons why that would encourage undesirable things Im not even sure where to start. From using specific builds to race 20ths on an event then lesser into a real build, to a reversal of the trend of filling a raid with pugs to try for more loot vs never putting up an lfm because you get more loot not using pugs, etc.

    That doesnt mean at least one item shouldnt drop most runs... but thats a function of probability not "make it automatic". With a full raid of 12 people, and a drop rate of 10%, youd see at least 1 item in the raid 72% of the time. With a drop rate of 5%, at least one item 46% of the time. If between ~2/4 and ~3/4 raids at least one item shows up, people will be fine. And 5-10% is way lower than the old school 16-25%. The current, man it must be like fractions of a percent... its just way too freaking low.

    Even a 2% drop rate means that 1 in 5 full raids would see an item, and people are ROUTINELY doing 20 runs with 12 man raids and seeing nothing or maybe a single item drop the whole time. Dont make shortmanning the "sure" way to get loot, just fix the drop rates. Its simple. You made it so we have to do 20 to progress. So we do 20. And we try to do it in a way that is efficient because the game is full of grind. The solution isnt make it more grindy... its to fix the problem. "Easier" loot isnt bad. It can be healthy, and encouraging. I know lots people who never raid because "they cant afford buying timers and wont ever get to 20 so why bother" and they just xp or whatever and log in less. Making raid loot accessible is only going to help the end game. Just ensure there is a realistically fair chance on normal, and an advantageously increased chance on elite. Thats really all it will take.

  13. #53
    Community Member poltt48's Avatar
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    I have to agree with the person who made this thread. I have now run this raid 47 times on 4 toons and only seen 1 drop the whole time. That is just terrible. I got my llitany on my bard then tr her. No point doing the expansion on that toon anymore. Would be much better if can only do 1 raid bypass timer per day would keep you interested in updates longer then people who knock out 100 raids in a weekend and done. Yes there is people on my server that have over 100 runs of this raid now.
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  14. #54
    Community Member UurlockYgmeov's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bridge_Dweller View Post
    You have a point, but timer bypasses as well as insanely horrific drop-rates are greatly responsible for killing what was once a great end-game in DDO. While not the only cause their impact is significant.

    And to the rest of you mooks put the snarking response on hold, we're actually coming up with some good ideas here.

    end game? My end game is to TR until I die! The high level loot is meh on top of dakine meh. Most of my primary character's gear is level 24 and under. Love the 3bc gear! This will change some when the level cap is raised - but TR cache just isn't big enough for it all.

    OH - that type of end game. Hey - if they want to grind out 20 in 3 hours - let them; none of my concern. I am only concerned with my own playstyle.

    OH - mook? I think one of my characters resembles that - Ooclaan Orgaafic named after Ookla the Mok.
    Last edited by UurlockYgmeov; 10-06-2014 at 05:48 PM. Reason: my kobold powered spell checker is on Union Break and being a Mok misspelled Ooclaan's surname.

  15. #55
    Community Member UurlockYgmeov's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FURYous View Post
    2) enough people with pitchforks and torches show up to make turbine think they may lose revenue from people leaving.
    always love it when this comes out. I make popcorn and watch!

    Quote Originally Posted by FURYous View Post
    Having a logical and well thought out presentation of valid improvements to the game have failed 100% of the time.
    actually incorrect. I will name one prime example from one of the largest, longest lasting threads on these forums:

    Guild Renown Decay.

    Well though out and presented concerns brought about not one, but three successive changes ending up with no decay until after level 150.

  16. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by poltt48 View Post
    Would be much better if can only do 1 raid bypass timer per day would keep you interested in updates longer then people who knock out 100 raids in a weekend and done.
    This brings me to another idea of how to input a limit on timer bypass use without making players angry -

    Simply say yes, we are implementing a limit on bypasses, but in exchange we are upping the drops rates by a significant %. Do it simultaneously. That way those players who'd get upset otherwise would feel they are getting something back and aren't being shafted.

  17. #57
    Community Member UurlockYgmeov's Avatar
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    Better Idea

    make jewels of fortune, dragonmark of finding loot boost, (maybe guild bash the breakables and weekend loot boost) add stacking +1% chance to drop named in raids (+2 for large and huge).

    Helps sell jewels of fortune, promote belonging to a guild, and that rare beast - the chest blesser.

    SO
    +1% (or 2%) - Small or Medium (Large or Huge) jewel of fortune
    +1% - Bash the Breakables
    +1% - Chest Blessing
    +1% (or 2%) - Weekend Loot Boost
    for a +4% to +6% chance of rares dropping.

    I like this.


  18. #58
    Community Member Noctus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by painkiller3 View Post
    i harken back to the old days where people had more than one character and used to (gasp) switch between characters to chain run raids...


    Ahh, those were the days of a proper endgame....
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  19. #59
    Community Member UurlockYgmeov's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by axel15810 View Post
    This brings me to another idea of how to input a limit on timer bypass use without making players angry -

    Simply say yes, we are implementing a limit on bypasses, but in exchange we are upping the drops rates by a significant %. Do it simultaneously. That way those players who'd get upset otherwise would feel they are getting something back and aren't being shafted.
    disagree with both.

    spending more of the Dev's limited resources to change something that isn't broken and to go back and recode all those chests? Bad idea. Don't fix what isn't broken because you often end up breaking it (just look at the history of Ascension Chamber)

  20. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vargouille View Post
    On the face of it, without additional complexity, this kind of system encourages short-manning as much as possible. Being able to solo a raid (admittedly tough for current epic Abbot) would give 12x as much chance at loot as a full raid.

    Is that desirable?
    Since you are talking about drops, what about taking a look at one good game that I have some friends playing over: Guild Wars 2.

    To everyone that have played GW2, you know the actual "endgame" is either PvP/WvW or going for skin hunting (Armor/weapon skins, not actual skinning). Well, every 2-3 weeks, they release a new set of weapon skins that cost "one ticket". This ticket is a random rare drop in game-wide content (as we have tomes and portable holes), or you can open the P2W chests to gather 10 fragments and build a ticket. However, once they release the new skin, the old skin gets its price changed for 5 tickets each. So they are still accessible, but requires more effort.

    I would recommend the opposite approach, since we are not talking about cosmetic effects only: As the raids gets older, it becomes easier to acquire their items for the simple reason it is probably outdated loot. Eg.: Some really old content (Titan, Sands, VoN, Tempest Spine, Subterran raids, etc) could have its "20th completion list" lowered to a 5th completion list. Maybe if by your own statistics something is rarely run at all (like Titan), even have its raid timer removed and becomes an "anytime" raid, like Tempest Spine.
    Amossa d'Cannith, Sarlona, casually trying Completionist (12/14) [<o>]
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