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  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by moo_cow View Post
    I believe he is trying to say for a 12 man group. So if 1 person solos it on ee, then they would be receiving a 1/4 chance. If it was a full 12 man group it would be 3 items. That 3 may be a little high, but still. (correct me if I'm wrong, dweller) This would not make it a desirable raid to shortman, quite the opposite actually.
    That works to.

  2. #22
    Community Member Takllin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vargouille View Post
    Interesting concept that may have rage-inducing implications.


    On the face of it, without additional complexity, this kind of system encourages short-manning as much as possible. Being able to solo a raid (admittedly tough for current epic Abbot) would give 12x as much chance at loot as a full raid.

    Is that desirable?
    You reap what you sow. You wanted to trivialize some major, some minor parts of the game to make a few more bucks here and there.

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  3. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vargouille View Post
    Interesting concept that may have rage-inducing implications.


    On the face of it, without additional complexity, this kind of system encourages short-manning as much as possible. Being able to solo a raid (admittedly tough for current epic Abbot) would give 12x as much chance at loot as a full raid.

    Is that desirable?
    running raids with zero drops is undesirable if elite had 100% chance to drop 1-2 pieces it would be a better incentive imo if someone can and wants to solo an epic elite raid why shouldn't they get a guaranteed piece of loot or 2
    Quote Originally Posted by MadFloyd View Post
    Fernando has yet to even suggest a nerf of anything.
    Oh and by the way (referring to your sig), we aren't nerfing the Torc.

  4. #24
    Community Member Thar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vargouille View Post
    Interesting concept that may have rage-inducing implications.


    On the face of it, without additional complexity, this kind of system encourages short-manning as much as possible. Being able to solo a raid (admittedly tough for current epic Abbot) would give 12x as much chance at loot as a full raid.

    Is that desirable?
    I'm sure he was talking about a 12 man raid group avg drop as we all know, max only one raid item will drop from a chest, not 3. For a 12 man group to never see an item in 20 runs is ridiculous and bad design. You want a carrot out in front leading the horse but it has to be an actual carrot, not a mythical carrot...
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  5. #25
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    In 20 runs of the raid (all EN - though guild completed an EE) I pulled and looted one item. I did see at least 7 items drop across those full party runs. Seems low but if the droprate is 2x on EH it gives more of a reason to more efficiently run the raid, gear for the raid and run EH and occasional EE's.

    Three annoying bugs of the new update to me:
    1. Items with permanent GH do not confer FEAR Immunity as per GH. They actually will sap the fear immunity from the spell once the bonus HP are gone.
    2. Getting quelled (by quells not the death night aura) removes one's ability to see newly forming blue clouds of death in the raid. Everyone grinding to get Epic Glimpse of the Souls now.
    3. That raid can get server side laggy. There's general lag (which is worse on weekends) with the instance servers a bit overloaded which give 2 to 3s of lag hitching - haven't seen this as much on week day runs. Much worse is the 20 seconds of the server going frozen (connection was good, > 100 FPS on client, no loss, recv data seemed low, everyone in raid experiences the same lag). This happened only towards the end of the raid with all the spawns (including Vol) on the island and possibly one group returning from the final sarco destruction. It would also happen most easily at near raid wipes when there's only one or two running around (well trying to run around). Maybe Vol or Abbot have a script hanging the server. I have a number of screenshots taken from the ceiling of quest... just hit jump repeatedly during the lag... soon you're view is from the ceiling once the servers hitch back into action. Hope the devs are perf monitoring raid instances and which monster scripts are causing these total hangups. Only happened 1/5 raids for us this weekend. Didn't see it on weekday runs.
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  6. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thar View Post
    I'm sure he was talking about a 12 man raid group avg drop as we all know, max only one raid item will drop from a chest, not 3. For a 12 man group to never see an item in 20 runs is ridiculous and bad design. You want a carrot out in front leading the horse but it has to be an actual carrot, not a mythical carrot...
    I think my numbers should be the MINIMUM for a 12-person group.

    Normal: 1/3 chance an item drops
    Hard: 100% 1 item drops
    Elite: 3 items drop

  7. #27
    Community Member painkiller3's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by moo_cow View Post
    ...
    They really need to get rid of bypass timers or limit the amount we can actually use so they can increase the drop rates. I know no one would agree with that statement, but as I see it the only way to get an item is to be very lucky or to rush to 20 completions to get your items and I find that incredibly stupid.
    why not have the bypass limit be once per 16 hours instead of once every three days? that would make it useful, but not "20 completions in 3 hours" useful i harken back to the old days where people had more than one character and used to (gasp) switch between characters to chain run raids...

  8. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by painkiller3 View Post
    why not have the bypass limit be once per 16 hours instead of once every three days? that would make it useful, but not "20 completions in 3 hours" useful i harken back to the old days where people had more than one character and used to (gasp) switch between characters to chain run raids...
    16 hours, 24 hours, both accomplish the same thing.

    But if this is done the drop-rates MUST improve drastically over what they are now.

  9. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bridge_Dweller View Post
    I think my numbers should be the MINIMUM for a 12-person group.

    Normal: 1/3 chance an item drops
    Hard: 100% 1 item drops
    Elite: 3 items drop
    Or it can be the following:
    Normal: (num of people in grp)/36 chance an item drops
    Hard: (num of people in grp)/12 item drops
    Elite: (num of people in grp)/4 items drop

  10. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shade_z View Post
    Or it can be the following:
    Normal: (num of people in grp)/36 chance an item drops
    Hard: (num of people in grp)/12 item drops
    Elite: (num of people in grp)/4 items drop
    Math only causes problems.

  11. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vargouille View Post
    Interesting concept that may have rage-inducing implications.

    Please bring this up at a meeting and have a discussion about raid timer bypasses. I'll be frank, the introduction of bypasses was no doubt a nice moneymaker for Turbine, but time has shown it to be very destructive to the endgame as it has vastly shortened the lifespan of new content.

    Your goal is to build a stable raiding end game, yes? That's never going to happen as long as people are allowed to abuse bypasses to wear out content in a week or two. And it's not only a small portion of players doing this. Using bypasses has become very commonplace (and with all the duping many players have an unlimited supply). We need a limit on how many can be used at once, this is crucial to extend the life of content.

    The life of content even for the most dedicated players was usually atleast 3-6 months. Now that people can rush to 20th lists in a day or two the content dies after a couple of weeks. This is pretty evident by the LFMs. Runs of Fall of Truth, Fire Peaks and Deathwyrm are way way down.

    I understand the counter argument, people want to run the content when they want to. But I'll ask again, how are we ever going to establish a stable end game with this going on? It just isn't possible because people are going to continue to burn through content way faster than you can produce it. I think a change has to be made in the best interest of the game.

    Was the intent of bypasses to allow people to run a raid 20 times in 1 day? I don't think so. By putting a limit of atleast one use per day, the initial intent of raid bypasses - timers preventing friends/guildies running with each other will still be solved - yet the lifespan of content can still be protected. The raiding endgame was much much better back when cap was 20. The lack of raid timer bypasses was a big reason why.
    Last edited by axel15810; 10-06-2014 at 02:52 PM.

  12. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vargouille View Post
    On the face of it, without additional complexity, this kind of system encourages short-manning as much as possible. Being able to solo a raid (admittedly tough for current epic Abbot) would give 12x as much chance at loot as a full raid.

    Is that desirable?
    That's not 100% true, but encouraging smaller raid groups indeed is highly desirable.

    That's how raid loot originally worked in DDO, where you got a fixed two items per completion, and aside from the leader-picks malarky it was great: raids usually had 4-7 people, depending on how many you needed to fight the challenges (and to cover the item types). Then between the launch of the Stormreaver and Abbot raids, for some unknown reason the devs decided to switch it to a drop rate proportional to the number of players.

    That strongly encouraged filling raids to the full 12 people, which instantly made every raid much less fun. (A subtle point: the change didn't merely neutrally allow you to use whatever number you wanted, but it actually rewarded the existing members for adding more members, because the new people had a chance of passing you loot inside the chest.)


    PS. Why isn't it 100% true that a fixed drop rate encourages the smallest groups? Because not every item is useful to every kind of character. You still were encouraged to have enough kinds of builds to have someone who can use everything that drops.

  13. #33

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    Quote Originally Posted by Vargouille View Post
    Interesting concept that may have rage-inducing implications.


    On the face of it, without additional complexity, this kind of system encourages short-manning as much as possible. Being able to solo a raid (admittedly tough for current epic Abbot) would give 12x as much chance at loot as a full raid.

    Is that desirable?
    I'm going to be honest with you, a lot of the issue here is mechanics and the fact that people run the raids 24x7 a bazillion times then get their stuff and moves on. The best option would be to change raid timer to 2 days with an option to use a raid timer reset to shorten it to 1 day. Turbine makes it's money and there's longevity in the game. I mean This is the first weekend that I played the new raid and some people were talking about being on their 40th already. That's just not right. That means by the time I get to my 20th the best players have move on and it'll be the next raid that runs once in a blue moon. It's not good for the game. By contrast Shroud is still run almost every single day on Argo.
    The best thing for the game would be something in between; fewer days between runs but at least a buffer of once a day so that people rotate toons and don't bomb through the content and stop playing. Also increase the drop rate.
    Add a reasonable drop rate based on difficulty setting. At least so it's 1 or 2 items dropped on a whole raid group. Of all the times I ran, I think 9 or so across a bunch of toons I didn't see one single item drop. Not one between full parties every single time. That's not right. In fact now you enter into 'use raid timer reset to get to 20' territory and that's not right either.

  14. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bridge_Dweller View Post
    Math only causes problems.
    Yet at some point a coder will sit in front of a computer and his/her slimy tentacles will press the keys according to some twisted maths...

    So better to discuss them beforehand, otherwise we end up with current drop rates. Have yet to see a single item drop in Fire Peaks after a great deal of lives doing a few times per life.

    PS - coders, respect! I crunch my fair bit too with my clumsy tentacles

  15. #35
    Community Member Qhualor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vargouille View Post
    Interesting concept that may have rage-inducing implications.
    I know you probably won't confirm or deny, but this says to me drop rates in raids are influenced by raid timer bypass.
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    You are the one choosing not to play alts.

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  16. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by Takllin View Post
    You reap what you sow. You wanted to trivialize some major, some minor parts of the game to make a few more bucks here and there.
    This. Raid timer bypasses are solely in the game as a convenience to players (which ultimately shortens the lifespan of content, something Turbine should very much be concerned about) and to earn Turbine $$$$$. I've used timers from time to time as they certainly have their uses, but IMO this is certainly not a healthy item ingame for the longevity of DDO's endgame.

    As far as raid loot drops, EE needs love and has needed love for a while. Beyond forum posts from advanced players completing EE raids in X length of time or personal achievement, there is zero motivation to push for higher difficulties when running a raid. I'd suggest the following rough percentages for each player in a raid group to have a raid loot item drop (Disregarding loot gems, loot weekends, etc and like for simplicity):

    • Normal: 1/9 chance (~1.333 items per 12 man raid)
    • Hard: 1/6 chance (~2 items per 12 man raid)
    • Elite: 1/3 chance (~4 items per 12 man raid)
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  17. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by Qhualor View Post
    I know you probably won't confirm or deny, but this says to me drop rates in raids are influenced by raid timer bypass.
    Neither your nor I need complicated tinfoil hat conspiracies to figure out why touching Raid Bypass Timers may cause rage. The proposal was to change how a paid-for item works, in a way that may be considered a "nerf" by players. (We know some players may not have paid for some of all their Bypasses, but that isn't really relevant.)

    We're generally amused at how much work and extra hurdles players think we go through for something that's complicated enough to begin with. We don't have time for 99% of the things tinfoil hats protect against, we have real work to do. =D ... I gotta leave that 1% open, right? Wouldn't want to actually shut down all of the fun conspiracy theories.

    PS: I don't actually understand what line of thought leads to the conclusion quoted here. I don't even know if you think bypass timers give you more loot or less loot. That's OK, though! Carry on.

    /unofficiallynotconfirmingnordenyingiguess

  18. #38
    Community Member Ebondevil's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vargouille View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Bridge_Dweller View Post
    For the whole raid, not individuals, this is what I think the dro-rates should be.

    Normal: 1/3 chance an item drops
    Hard: 100% 1 item drops
    Elite: 3 items drop

    Some of us still play multiple toons, having to run this 60ish times on 5-7 characters is insane.

    On the face of it, without additional complexity, this kind of system encourages short-manning as much as possible. Being able to solo a raid (admittedly tough for current epic Abbot) would give 12x as much chance at loot as a full raid.

    Is that desirable?
    A little Extra complexity wouldn't hurt to factor in the number of people raiding so it wouldn't matter how many, or few, people were in the raid, the chances of loot dropping would be the same.

    For example, on Epic Elite:

    3 Items drop Multiplied by (Number of Raiders / 12)

    If you have 4 raiders this results in 3 * (4/12) = 1 Item drops

    If you have 1 Raider you get 3 * (1/12) = 3/12 = 25% chance of an item

  19. #39
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    Timer bypasses WERE once a nice revenue for Turbine. They are now everyone, dropping from cards. Giving them a 24h Timer (a timer for a timer-bypass, funny) is probably the best solution for Turbine. It would keep the content to last MUCH longer and keep people playing the game.

    This of course coupled with an increase in drop rate of Raid items.
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  20. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vargouille View Post
    Neither your nor I need complicated tinfoil hat conspiracies to figure out why touching Raid Bypass Timers may cause rage. The proposal was to change how a paid-for item works, in a way that may be considered a "nerf" by players. (We know some players may not have paid for some of all their Bypasses, but that isn't really relevant.)

    We're generally amused at how much work and extra hurdles players think we go through for something that's complicated enough to begin with. We don't have time for 99% of the things tinfoil hats protect against, we have real work to do. =D ... I gotta leave that 1% open, right? Wouldn't want to actually shut down all of the fun conspiracy theories.

    PS: I don't actually understand what line of thought leads to the conclusion quoted here. I don't even know if you think bypass timers give you more loot or less loot. That's OK, though! Carry on.

    /unofficiallynotconfirmingnordenyingiguess
    What he is asking is you guys kept some raid loot at lower chances of dropping than if bypassers had not existed.

    I think that it is fair to say that a lot of players, particularly the more involved raiders, have decided that given current drop rates and difficulty scaling / reward its "optimal" to just repeat many times at lower difficulties. When people farmed their TF weapons, they did not go for EE runs, rather, dozens of EN runs.

    Now in order to farm EN at the speed that veterans are going, you need to use bypassers.

    Whether this end situation (ENx1 buzillion being best) is a design choice or a result of the madness with event cards and their store samples (and duping) is something that only you guys know.

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