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  1. #41
    Community Member walkin_dude's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lifespawn View Post
    This comment is made so often it's laughable +20 to all saves is a 50 cha how many non sorc builds are going to get a 50 cha for this benefit?

    The norm is 10-15 with a 30-40 cha and significant investment to get to that point.
    My first sorcerer toon is one of these 18/2 splashes. It's been fun. He's second life, earth savant, far from the best gear, and currently has 48 charisma without any yugo pots or the like (i've never used one of those).
    Sarlona: Aramzim, Attickus, Behren, Daaghda, Darksyde, Fyggaro, Oldero
    Argonessen: Egyll, Ghrae, Mitrel, Physz, Sanjurow, Schaeleen
    Thelanis: Aarlyss, Eagynn | Ghallanda: Glooming | Khyber: Ghrae

  2. #42
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    The decision is a little strange given that they're making Sacred Defender stance easier to obtain as well, because as much as the 2-level splash may suffer, the 3-level splash will now let you pick up Resistance Aura and Improved Defender Stance and get another +6 to all saving throws that way. It's rather unfortunate for sorcerers, but I could see myself opting out of 9th level spells on a water savant, maybe even going for 4 levels of Paladin for the extra AC. The 3-splash also gives Fear and Disease Immunity, so that might be nice in general. They're also releasing "Resistance Greater Than +10" items, so it does seem as though they want saving throw inflation to be taking place - which is an odd contrast to this change.

  3. #43
    Community Member Qhualor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pescha View Post
    Have you ran EE 3bc ?
    Last night. What's your point?
    #MakeDDOGreatAgain

    You are the one choosing not to play alts.

    Casual player now investing way less than I used to into the game, playing 1-3 months at a time and still want nothing to do with Reaper. #improvepuggrouping#alldifficultiesmatter

  4. #44
    Community Member walkin_dude's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lifespawn View Post
    Go look at your rule book and point out ANY enemy with a 100dc save requirement........ go ahead i'll wait.


    Not gonna happen you can't take 1 part of a rule book without looking at the other side .

    Again +20 to all saves is a 50 cha not feasible by anything but a sorc
    I believe the reference to pnp rules is due to a couple of posts earlier in the thread that mentioned the DG change as being antagonistic to them.

    My recollection of the rules is that a paladin character that switched class would lose all divinely derived abilities. I don't believe monks were able to multi- or dual class at all.
    Sarlona: Aramzim, Attickus, Behren, Daaghda, Darksyde, Fyggaro, Oldero
    Argonessen: Egyll, Ghrae, Mitrel, Physz, Sanjurow, Schaeleen
    Thelanis: Aarlyss, Eagynn | Ghallanda: Glooming | Khyber: Ghrae

  5. #45
    Community Member walkin_dude's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 01000010 View Post
    Well, honestly 50 charisma is feasible on other builds, including melee, but so few people play them most don't realize, regardless of that tho, as you said 100ish dcs are the real problem, anyone saying that makes any sense is just plain ignorant.

    Divine grace is one of the classic class features that has been in all version of dungeons and dragons, seriously, I would distance as much as possible from this if I were a dev, lol. And if a DM added that as a house rule he wouldn't be my dm anymore, who would respect a dm after that?
    I have no recollection of any ability called divine grace in 1st or 2nd Edition AD&D.
    Sarlona: Aramzim, Attickus, Behren, Daaghda, Darksyde, Fyggaro, Oldero
    Argonessen: Egyll, Ghrae, Mitrel, Physz, Sanjurow, Schaeleen
    Thelanis: Aarlyss, Eagynn | Ghallanda: Glooming | Khyber: Ghrae

  6. #46
    Community Member Thrudh's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pescha View Post
    This fix is utter nonsense because i will loose +8 to all saves while traps/EE trash have the same DC as before, i call that bs.
    We just gained +3 to all saves from the new guild ships... You can get +3 more from Divine epic past-lives. You could twist in Lithe or Unearthly reactions for +6 reflex saves. You could take epic reflexes for +2 reflex saves.

    You could also splash 2 more paladins levels (with the changes to paladin enhancements, this isn't a bad choice for a melee)

    If you truly are an elite player, this change will barely inconvenience you... If you're not an elite player... I guess one could continue to complain on the forums and hope the devs revert the easy button for you.
    Quote Originally Posted by Teh_Troll View Post
    We are no more d000m'd then we were a week ago. Note - This was posted in 10/2013
    Quote Originally Posted by Eth View Post
    When you stop caring about xp/min this game becomes really fun. Trust me.
    Quote Originally Posted by TedSandyman View Post
    Some people brag about how fast they finished the game. I cant think of a stupider thing to brag about. Or in this game, going from level 1 to level 30 in two days, or however long it takes. I can't even begin to imagine what drives a person to think that is fun. You are ignoring all of the content and options and going for sheer speed. It is like going to a museum and bragging about how fast you made it through. Or bragging about how fast you finished a good steak.

  7. #47
    Community Member Kawai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thrudh View Post
    We just gained +3 to all saves from the new guild ships... You can get +3 more from Divine epic past-lives. You could twist in Lithe or Unearthly reactions for +6 reflex saves. You could take epic reflexes for +2 reflex saves.

    You could also splash 2 more paladins levels (with the changes to paladin enhancements, this isn't a bad choice for a melee)

    If you truly are an elite player, this change will barely inconvenience you... If you're not an elite player... I guess one could continue to complain on the forums and hope the devs revert the easy button for you.
    oooooh snap! +1

  8. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by 01000010 View Post
    So now we know the community manager isn't responsible for this ridiculous nerf being planned.

    Id distance myself too, anyone who respects core rules and game design would id think.

    So any dev wanna comment on why the plan is to nerf dg rather than balance content reasonably? Someone must have one valid argument for this nerf, right?
    I really hate this phrase, "balancing content." Technically speaking, nerfing DG IS balancing content. It reduces the saves gap.
    Let's consider three groups of people:
    The first is the high saves group. These people make the necessary sacrifices/investments to get high saves. Let's say they get an average 70.
    The second group is the middle saves group. They don't make as many sacrifices, but they still get decent saves from class/ability scores. Their average is 50.
    The third group is the low saves group. They have 30 or below for saves. They don't make any sacrifices or investments in saves, and don't have any class/ability bonuses either(pure sorc, 10 dex reflex save)


    How can you balance content on these three groups of people? It's impossible to pick a DC where the middle group has more than a 5% chance of saving and the high saves group doesn't auto save. It's also impossible to have a case(aside from strict 20's/1's) where the low saves group makes the save and the middle saves group doesn't.

    Now you can say that the only reason people go for the high saves is because the DC's are so high. But you'll have better luck convincing me that people won't walk to their mail box to collect $20 bucks. If a player can achieve auto-save numbers without heavy sacrifice, they will. Plain and simple. Right now, paladin offers divine might in addition to saves. So you gain offense and defense for little to no sacrifice.


    I'm not saying DC's shouldn't be adjusted, but you can't say that they should "balance content" when it's impossible. Before they can balance the DC's, they need to balance the saving throws to a reasonable number. Or they could really **** players off and convert it away from a d20 system(which would probably be best for the game, but players would still scream in rage.)

  9. #49
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    rule 0: the dm is always right.

  10. #50
    Community Member Chai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thrudh View Post
    We just gained +3 to all saves from the new guild ships... You can get +3 more from Divine epic past-lives. You could twist in Lithe or Unearthly reactions for +6 reflex saves. You could take epic reflexes for +2 reflex saves.

    You could also splash 2 more paladins levels (with the changes to paladin enhancements, this isn't a bad choice for a melee)

    If you truly are an elite player, this change will barely inconvenience you... If you're not an elite player... I guess one could continue to complain on the forums and hope the devs revert the easy button for you.
    Ironic, since the newest easy button will be 14+ levels of paladin.
    Quote Originally Posted by Teh_Troll View Post
    We are no more d000m'd then we were a week ago. Note - This was posted in 10/2013 (when concurrency was ~4x what it is today)

  11. #51
    Community Member poltt48's Avatar
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    Cry me a river it been over powered forever and should never have been like that. Now that they correcting it people who were exploiting it are now crying. Guess you guys will have to find a new exploiter build.
    Soulsavour 28 cleric completionist/epic completionist, Soundofthe Melodymaster 20 lock completionist/triple epic completionist (working on triple normal completionist), Holypoo 28 pally epic completionist, Edgeofshadows 28 rogue

  12. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dawnsfire View Post
    I think the 'nerf' is entirely sensible. Back when I played (1st and 2nd addition) I am pretty sure multiclasses with Paladin and monk were both highly restricted. Even if you ignore that, Turbine has departed from the rules so much that the game doesn't track really closely with any version of D&D.

    I have always thought it was highly ridiculous that for a 2 level investment a character could get +20 or more to all saves.

    I personally hope they go back to the idea that both paladin and monk are really special classes where multiclassing is difficult to impossible but I'll take this change.
    The rules changed with each rule update. Here is the current rules:

    Like a member of any other class, a paladin may be a multiclass character, but multiclass paladins face a special restriction. A paladin who gains a level in any class other than paladin may never again raise her paladin level, though she retains all her paladin abilities.

    I think the change should be based on charisma score and level - a percentage cap based on your level and not a hard-cap because there is no hard cap on monster DCs. When the level cap goes to 30 2 levels of paladin will provide a smaller percentage of save bonus relative to enemy DCs than now. That is a bad design. Since divine grace is based on charisma a sorc should benefit more than a 10-charisma fighter that gets to a 28 with tomes and gear.hould

    If they want to restrict it based on pal level that is fine, but it should scale up as the game scales up and charisma should be a factor in addition to paladin levels.

  13. #53
    FreeDeeOh PsychoBlonde's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pescha View Post
    Have you ran EE 3bc ?
    Yes. Repeatedly. I've seen people WITHOUT EVASION go right through the traps and survive.

  14. #54
    Community Member Alternative's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thrudh View Post
    You could also splash 2 more paladins levels (with the changes to paladin enhancements, this isn't a bad choice for a melee)
    And access to quicken/DM on top of that. But this thread is obviously mostly about shiradi sorcs.


    Quote Originally Posted by Thrudh View Post
    If you truly are an elite player, this change will barely inconvenience you...
    /thread

  15. #55
    FreeDeeOh PsychoBlonde's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ArcaneArcher52689 View Post
    I'm not saying DC's shouldn't be adjusted, but you can't say that they should "balance content" when it's impossible. Before they can balance the DC's, they need to balance the saving throws to a reasonable number. Or they could really **** players off and convert it away from a d20 system(which would probably be best for the game, but players would still scream in rage.)
    I actually wouldn't mind if they changed saving throws in a similar way to how they changed AC, so that even with very high saves you still have around a 20-30% chance to fail the save, whereas with low saves you still have a 20-30% chance to make the save. Then they can tune the actual damage numbers a bit better.

    d20 in pen and paper is the way it is so that it's easy for human being sitting at a table to make the mathematical calculations. There's really not a strong reason for it to stay that way in a computer game where the computer does all the calculations. AC still "looks" like it does in PnP, it just works in a way that is more geared toward a computer system. Win.

  16. #56
    Community Member Blackheartox's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alternative View Post
    The nerf is kinda moot because it only really affects sorcs, a 2 pal splash with dump cha won't lose all that much. Realistic cha on such a character would be 8 base +4/5 tome +8 item/augment +1 exceptional +1 litany +2 insightful +2 ship = 26/27.

    Shiradi sorcs now go int based!

    DC sorcs go pure.

    Who's left to care?
    Mostly 2 paladin melles and monkchers who dont like to fail desinti check and abused this silly overpowered ability that came with no sacrifice

  17. #57
    Community Member Chai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by poltt48 View Post
    Cry me a river it been over powered forever and should never have been like that. Now that they correcting it people who were exploiting it are now crying. Guess you guys will have to find a new exploiter build.
    That's just it, effective nerfing occurs quickly after the OP ability makes it to live, not 8 years after it becomes a build staple.

    As for finding a new build....naaaaaa....plenty already exist. The newest one will be 14+ levels of paladin and 6 something else. I hereby welcome our new lawful good overlords.
    Quote Originally Posted by Teh_Troll View Post
    We are no more d000m'd then we were a week ago. Note - This was posted in 10/2013 (when concurrency was ~4x what it is today)

  18. #58
    Community Member Chai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blackheartox View Post
    Mostly 2 paladin melles and monkchers who dont like to fail desinti check and abused this silly overpowered ability that came with no sacrifice
    Will turn into 14+ paladin melee who will be far more OP than their previous build was.
    Quote Originally Posted by Teh_Troll View Post
    We are no more d000m'd then we were a week ago. Note - This was posted in 10/2013 (when concurrency was ~4x what it is today)

  19. #59
    Community Member Pescha's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chai View Post
    That's just it, effective nerfing occurs quickly after the OP ability makes it to live, not 8 years after it becomes a build staple.

    As for finding a new build....naaaaaa....plenty already exist. The newest one will be 14+ levels of paladin and 6 something else. I hereby welcome our new lawful good overlords.
    Don't worry they will nerf that too because
    -sarcasm on-
    *sniff* *sniff* the other guy is so much better than me i really hate how he plays and it just bothers me to see him do better in any regards, please destroy his toys (exploits) so he will be on the same lvl as myself .
    -sarcasm off-
    Last edited by Pescha; 09-15-2014 at 02:04 PM.

  20. #60
    Community Member Oliphant's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cordovan View Post
    I work as the Community Manager for DDO, so do not direct systems changes in the way you infer. I do, however, pass along to the community decision-making that has been made, and the plan is to enact the change to Divine Grace in a future update, since this change is not likely to take place when Update 23 is released. We did, however, add it to the Known Issues to make sure that people were aware of our intentions.
    Great communication as usual! Thanks Cordo
    Please consider the environment before printing this post

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