Results 1 to 19 of 19
  1. #1
    Community Member Monkey_Archer's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2008
    Posts
    2,738

    Default Videos: Fighter vs Paladin

    Both builds are as close to identical as possible. Same gear, same basic enhancement split, etc...

    Pure 20 Fighter


    Pure 20 Paladin
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tdvR1RHbwZo
    Thelanis Thylus Thelassir Kjeldorn Ingrisstohr Khaarnath Lyriah Byrron Grunzo Thylandras Kharandras Thylandar Mallachias Kharnofski Grunzar Thyax Kharnoth Ghallanda Lykanthar Kharnor Thelanar Kharnaxe Kharnoth
    Khyber Gimpo

  2. #2
    Community Member
    Join Date
    Jan 2014
    Posts
    3,286

    Default

    So, conclusion? Time is more or less the same, what else do you want us to notice?

  3. #3
    Community Member Thayion516's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2010
    Location
    Behind You
    Posts
    359

    Default

    I like how you just straight up tank-killed EE CR64+ mobs! Good Job! Especially on the bridge with like 15 knolls. You actually were advancing into them instead of backing up swinging.

    Yup, seems like the time of the Heavy Armor Melee Super Tanks is finally here.

  4. #4
    Community Member Takllin's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Posts
    843

    Default

    I haven't watched your Fighter video, but these are not very accurate comparisons.

    You didn't use either of the new KotC cleaves, and opted for the feats instead. Hardly used Divine Sacrifice. Another note, since Holy Retribution does not regenerate smites yet(bug) Paladin is missing a good amount of DPS from that.

    Tokun PDK 12 Monk/4 Paladin/4 Fighter (3x Fighter, Monk, Paladin, Ranger, Rogue/2x Bard, Barbarian PL)
    Tekllin Human 20 Sorc (3x Sorc, Wiz PL)
    Jadokis Purple Dragon Knight 18 Barbarian/1 Favored Soul/1 Fighter (3x Bard, Fighter, Monk, Paladin, Rogue/2x Favored Soul/Heroic and Epic Completionist)
    Degenerate Matter

  5. #5
    Community Member the_one_dwarfforged's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2013
    Location
    I'm in your head, bro.
    Posts
    829

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Thayion516 View Post
    Yup, seems like the time of the Heavy Armor Melee Super Tanks is finally here.
    did look like not a whole lotta effort went into staying alive, outside of using heavy armor and p2w race.

    some suggested fixes:

    reduce total monk defenses (currently attainable prr through past lives, earth stance, earth stance twists, earth stance enhancements, defensive stance, dodge, dodge cap, shadowveil, displacement), slightly buff amount of prr available to certain builds (nerf dpser defense, increase tank defense? could that be a thing?), leave prr formula. might not be perfect but its a rough idea. also acknowledging that not all builds with monk in them take, use, optimize, or maximize some or all of the listed way to increase their defense.

    lam changes go through. buff ee enemies dmg and hp. not saves or immunities.
    Quote Originally Posted by Severlin View Post
    Fighter is fine, though I agree it is behind Paladin. Their greatest weakness is actually saving throws.
    statements like this are why i have no confidence in the dev team.

  6. #6
    2015 DDO Players Council B0ltdrag0n's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2009
    Posts
    830

    Default

    These seem like very accurate times that make it feel to me at lest that the classes are more or less better balanced now.

    Thank you for the videos.
    Officer of Renowned

  7. #7
    Community Member Monkey_Archer's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2008
    Posts
    2,738

    Default Some thoughts...

    • The paladin definitely does do a bit more dps
    • The extra 3 action boosts are the main reason the fighter finished the end fight faster though (both builds got to the end shrine at about ~12 minutes)
    • @Takllin The KOTC cleaves would not have made a significant difference in dps, and I would have had to give up something else from the tree. Smite also doesn't really make a big difference on trash, and I did use them on the boss at the end. I also didn't use stunning blow, a good death, or deadly strike on the fighter, which give similar benefits.
    • All the talk about paladins and holy sword being overpowered confuses me. Heavy armor and the new PRR formula are 95% of why we see first life paladins soloing EE now, and first life fighters can keep up just fine. Holy sword may be a bit too strong, but its not very significant relative to the other changes.
    • Its been a few years since I've actually played an effective THF melee at endgame, forgot how fun it was Sad to hear that twitching might get removed though.
    Thelanis Thylus Thelassir Kjeldorn Ingrisstohr Khaarnath Lyriah Byrron Grunzo Thylandras Kharandras Thylandar Mallachias Kharnofski Grunzar Thyax Kharnoth Ghallanda Lykanthar Kharnor Thelanar Kharnaxe Kharnoth
    Khyber Gimpo

  8. #8
    Community Member Takllin's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Posts
    843

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Monkey_Archer View Post
    • The paladin definitely does do a bit more dps
    • The extra 3 action boosts are the main reason the fighter finished the end fight faster though (both builds got to the end shrine at about ~12 minutes)
    • @Takllin The KOTC cleaves would not have made a significant difference in dps, and I would have had to give up something else from the tree. Smite also doesn't really make a big difference on trash, and I did use them on the boss at the end. I also didn't use stunning blow, a good death, or deadly strike on the fighter, which give similar benefits.
    • All the talk about paladins and holy sword being overpowered confuses me. Heavy armor and the new PRR formula are 95% of why we see first life paladins soloing EE now, and first life fighters can keep up just fine. Holy sword may be a bit too strong, but its not very significant relative to the other changes.
    • Its been a few years since I've actually played an effective THF melee at endgame, forgot how fun it was Sad to hear that twitching might get removed though.
    Drop the +2 STR, 4 AP for +1 att/damage/dc is meh. Bring Divine Sacrifice back down to tier 1, or get rid of the thing above that, can't remember what it is called, and that gives you 6 AP. Spend that on the new KotC cleaves. Use the two free feats you now have on Stunning Blow and something else useful. If you drop your repair amp down to tier 1, pick up +3 Tactics and Fearsome. Once Holy Retribution is WAI, I think all of these changes will see a big boost in DPS. Your losing +2[w] and +3[w] each time you use your cleave attacks, which is often. Those smites also will help kill trash faster, and kill each boss faster as well.

    I think its a moot point to test builds unless you are going to use their best abilities. If my lama client actually worked I would do this myself, but I can't log in.
    Last edited by Takllin; 09-02-2014 at 06:40 PM.

    Tokun PDK 12 Monk/4 Paladin/4 Fighter (3x Fighter, Monk, Paladin, Ranger, Rogue/2x Bard, Barbarian PL)
    Tekllin Human 20 Sorc (3x Sorc, Wiz PL)
    Jadokis Purple Dragon Knight 18 Barbarian/1 Favored Soul/1 Fighter (3x Bard, Fighter, Monk, Paladin, Rogue/2x Favored Soul/Heroic and Epic Completionist)
    Degenerate Matter

  9. #9
    Community Member Cetus's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2006
    Posts
    4,747

    Default

    I'm questioning some of the gameplay choices with the pally, but all in all thank you for actually providing some video footage.

    I absolutely disagree that fighters are comparable - I did a pure fighter on lama and am reporting a powerfully different conclusion. I felt rather weak compared to the pally actually.

    Side note: Kensei capstone seems to give 1 instead of 2 extra action boosts.
    Cetus Heroic Lives: #32/32 | Epic Completionist: #20/24 | Iconic Lives: #6/6
    Cetusz - Pure Sorcerer: Heroic Lives: #24/24 | Epic Lives: #6/12 | Iconic Lives: #1/3
    YouTube Channel HERE
    Argonnessen's DEGENERATE MATTER

  10. #10
    Community Member FlaviusMaximus's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2012
    Posts
    1,635

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Monkey_Archer View Post
    All the talk about paladins and holy sword being overpowered confuses me. Heavy armor and the new PRR formula are 95% of why we see first life paladins soloing EE now, and first life fighters can keep up just fine. Holy sword may be a bit too strong, but its not very significant relative to the other changes.
    Holy Sword is a significant offensive change.
    The new armor system is a significant defensive change.
    Two separate discussions, both very important, in my mind.
    Are the defensive changes worth more attention? Perhaps. That doesn't mean both shouldn't be addressed though.

  11. #11
    Community Member Nayus's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2011
    Posts
    1,273

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Cetus View Post
    I'm questioning some of the gameplay choices with the pally, but all in all thank you for actually providing some video footage.

    I absolutely disagree that fighters are comparable - I did a pure fighter on lama and am reporting a powerfully different conclusion. I felt rather weak compared to the pally actually.

    Side note: Kensei capstone seems to give 1 instead of 2 extra action boosts.
    Well the OP didn't have that much problem so it's certainly just that much of a difference in playerskill.
    Not many people have Fighter experience with all these monk splashes around.

  12. #12
    Community Member Monkey_Archer's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2008
    Posts
    2,738

    Default

    For the record, I'm not claiming to be an experienced THF player. I haven't seriously played a THF melee on live since 20-cap/early motu, so my twitch skills are far from perfect. I was just trying to keep everything as even as possible playstyle wise (kill all mobs, cleave the mobs in the same locations, gather mobs in the same location, follow the same path, etc...)

    Results may vary for triple completionists (multiplication factors cant be ignored), but neither of theses builds felt "weak" to me. They both felt grossly overpowered to the point that this EE quest felt like casual. Difference in perspective I suppose.
    Last edited by Monkey_Archer; 09-03-2014 at 08:38 AM.
    Thelanis Thylus Thelassir Kjeldorn Ingrisstohr Khaarnath Lyriah Byrron Grunzo Thylandras Kharandras Thylandar Mallachias Kharnofski Grunzar Thyax Kharnoth Ghallanda Lykanthar Kharnor Thelanar Kharnaxe Kharnoth
    Khyber Gimpo

  13. #13
    Community Member
    Join Date
    Jan 2014
    Posts
    3,286

    Default

    In offense, the paladin has, wrt to the fighter (assume the rest sort of cancels out):

    - Extra multiplier: which is equivalent to a 10% multiplier to your base damage.
    - Smites
    - Melee power in capstone
    - Light damage

    It should not be a HUGE gain for a bladeforged in terms of damage. Healing is taken care of regardless (but a fleshie would of course see a big difference in favor of the paladin). Of course there are saves too, but they don't seem to be hugely important on that quest and on a BF.

    I agree that paladin holy sword aside (which is not a mind blowing addition to damage, although it is substantial) the change in feeling comes from PRR. Blitz is nerfed and the paladin with h sword does not make up for the loss in DPS. So it has to be PRR.

  14. #14
    Community Member
    Join Date
    Jun 2013
    Posts
    312

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Nayus View Post
    Well the OP didn't have that much problem so it's certainly just that much of a difference in playerskill.
    Not many people have Fighter experience with all these monk splashes around.
    Lol, Cetus has been playing pure fighter for ages. If you want to troll at least do some research in advance so you don't look stupid

  15. #15
    2015 DDO Players Council Seikojin's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Location
    gamertown usa
    Posts
    6,501

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by BigErkyKid View Post
    In offense, the paladin has, wrt to the fighter (assume the rest sort of cancels out):

    - Extra multiplier: which is equivalent to a 10% multiplier to your base damage.
    - Smites
    - Melee power in capstone
    - Light damage

    It should not be a HUGE gain for a bladeforged in terms of damage. Healing is taken care of regardless (but a fleshie would of course see a big difference in favor of the paladin). Of course there are saves too, but they don't seem to be hugely important on that quest and on a BF.

    I agree that paladin holy sword aside (which is not a mind blowing addition to damage, although it is substantial) the change in feeling comes from PRR. Blitz is nerfed and the paladin with h sword does not make up for the loss in DPS. So it has to be PRR.
    Also DR applying after PRR which they say is a bug/not intentional may be a big thing too. Well it will be a big thing since 300-70-65% < 300-65%-70.

  16. #16
    Community Member
    Join Date
    Jul 2013
    Posts
    1,152

    Default

    DR SHOULD apply after PRR.

  17. #17
    Community Member Cetus's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2006
    Posts
    4,747

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by BigErkyKid View Post
    In offense, the paladin has, wrt to the fighter (assume the rest sort of cancels out):

    - Extra multiplier: which is equivalent to a 10% multiplier to your base damage.
    - Smites
    - Melee power in capstone
    - Light damage

    It should not be a HUGE gain for a bladeforged in terms of damage. Healing is taken care of regardless (but a fleshie would of course see a big difference in favor of the paladin). Of course there are saves too, but they don't seem to be hugely important on that quest and on a BF.

    I agree that paladin holy sword aside (which is not a mind blowing addition to damage, although it is substantial) the change in feeling comes from PRR. Blitz is nerfed and the paladin with h sword does not make up for the loss in DPS. So it has to be PRR.
    Really? This is all you're listing?

    Divine might, this doesn't necessarily cancel out - since I can get a far higher charisma on a capstoned pally than intelligence on a pure fighter to take advantage of know the angles. But for the sake of argument, lets say they are the same: 50 cha = +20 strength. On a THF = 15 damage, + 10 tactics DC. 50 Int: = 20 mod, = 10 damage, 10 tactics. DM > KTA

    Divine Sacrifice, additional multiplier attack with light damage every 3 seconds

    When you say light damage - you are downplaying its magnitude. 8d6 light damage amplified by melee power every attack, undead (the bulk of this new update) take even more damage - every hit -

    They also get 500 damage on every vorpal on undead from the ML 18 core.

    You also forgot divine grace, all of that charisma results in killer saves, fighters get nowhere near that kinda defense.

    You also forgot quicken - this is an enormous defensive advantage for reconstruct, especially when playing aggressively - fighters can't take quicken.

    The stuff that cancels is zeal with the fighter doublestrike, +3 dmg from divine favor and +1 W (roughly) from holy sword with the weapon spec damage (in fact, the only thing fighter really gains here is 9% doublestrike).

    All of those extra feats on fighter are for naught - we don't have feats in this game that are worth anything, I guess you can grab improved sunder with those new boots.
    Cetus Heroic Lives: #32/32 | Epic Completionist: #20/24 | Iconic Lives: #6/6
    Cetusz - Pure Sorcerer: Heroic Lives: #24/24 | Epic Lives: #6/12 | Iconic Lives: #1/3
    YouTube Channel HERE
    Argonnessen's DEGENERATE MATTER

  18. #18
    The Hatchery Zoda's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2011
    Location
    The Court of Lailat
    Posts
    825

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Nayus View Post
    Well the OP didn't have that much problem so it's certainly just that much of a difference in playerskill.
    Not many people have Fighter experience with all these monk splashes around.
    Not like there is much problem to be had in Break in the Ice...

    Quote Originally Posted by Seikojin View Post
    Also DR applying after PRR which they say is a bug/not intentional may be a big thing too. Well it will be a big thing since 300-70-65% < 300-65%-70.
    Good way to make DR a nonfactor again. Put it in a box with AC.
    Main: Zodaroth - heroic & epic completionist pure dwarven warlock
    Alts: Zodynkar (caster), Zodirkeal (archer), Zodinn (lab rat)
    ---- Death N Taxes -------------------------------------------------------Argo -----

  19. #19
    Community Member the_one_dwarfforged's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2013
    Location
    I'm in your head, bro.
    Posts
    829

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Cetus View Post
    Divine might, this doesn't necessarily cancel out - since I can get a far higher charisma on a capstoned pally than intelligence on a pure fighter to take advantage of know the angles. But for the sake of argument, lets say they are the same: 50 cha = +20 strength. On a THF = 15 damage, + 10 tactics DC. 50 Int: = 20 mod, = 10 damage, 10 tactics. DM > KTA
    dm: insight bonus to str. stacks with combat mastery items, does not stack with insightful str items.

    kta: insight bonus to tactics. stacks with insightful str items, does not stack with combat mastery items.

    dm > anything else you could be spending a couple ap on > kta
    Quote Originally Posted by Severlin View Post
    Fighter is fine, though I agree it is behind Paladin. Their greatest weakness is actually saving throws.
    statements like this are why i have no confidence in the dev team.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  

This form's session has expired. You need to reload the page.

Reload