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  1. #1
    Community Member Nayus's Avatar
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    Default What do you want to see in the new Vanguard tree?

    Well, we were promised the Vanguard tree for pretty much a month now, to make matters worse we were give absolutely no information regarding the contents of it. I'm a BIG fan of S&B characters and I'm trying to match my xp progress to U23 release date, I want to Iconic Reincarnate as soon as it goes out.

    The Devs said it'll be up in a later build but I wanted to ask, what would you guys like to see in the new Vanguard tree? What are your expectations?

    My list:

    • MRR/PRR changes (assuming they won't be nerfed) are plenty. It's odd for AC to be so meaningless in a D&D-based game but I don't think we need much more defense. Still, I don't want to be forced into Stalwart/Sacred Defender. I would like some defenses in the cores or high-tier abilities, not just low-hanging PRR.
    • DPS DPS DPS DPS. But not too much. I played a Swashbuckler for less than a month before I got sick of pwning EE content w/ a first lifer in off-destinies. Now, they're making the most defensive class in the DDO the Kings of DPS. Give S&Bs something good, but make it enjoyable for everyone. I don't want a S&B toon to do more DPS than a Kensei, not even close.
    • It's pretty easy to envision S&B toons as "Gladiators" but Kensei Tactics are too expensive, I would like to see S&B with real tactical power and if possible, unique tactics.
    • Emergency buttons for when ship tappens. If I'm walking around with a Tower Shield and an Adamantine Body I would like to be able to survive sudden bursts of danger, even if it was on a 10-minute cooldown. In fact, a 10 minute cooldown sounds just right.


    What I absolutely don't want to see:

    • A tree like Sacred Defender that can't possibly be maxed out even if you spent all your 80 points in there.
    • Overpower high-level core abilities that force me to be a Pure Fighter or Pure Paladin.
    • A tree that forces me to spend 20+ points in ScD/StD. Those two should be "Good options" and not "Mandatory Must-Haves".
    • Broken overpower abilities to make everyone switch to S&B. I swayed from the playstyle because it was "too weak" and I want to go back because it's "just right".
    • Immortality. Honestly... I know there are people with 250+ AC and 150+ PRR tanking end game raid bosses, but I don't wanna be one of those. I want to sacrifice *some* DPS for *some more* defense. That's all. I wanna kill things. I wanna contribute in EH.

  2. #2
    The Hatchery Enoach's Avatar
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    Things I would like to see all deal with actually using a shield.

    I would like to see an ability that grants Tower Shield Proficiency. While this won't help the fighter builds it will give the Paladin builds options other than the feat or UMD

    I would like to see Bull Rush knock back type ability, a power sprint that knocks back or down an opponent much like the Minotaur do to us. It should be short range but require some distance between person and target before it can hit. Possibly use the same DC abilities tied to Trip. It should have a moderate to long cool down.

    I would like to see an ability that enhances shield bash allowing the potential when combined with Shield Bash on a shield and Shield Bash feat to have approx. 80% chance to activate

    I would like to see an some enhancements for Shield Mastery maybe something along the lines of Combat Styles of Swashbuckler but broken into Buckler/Light/Heavy/Tower

    I would also love to see an ability that gives a chance that a hit is deflected by the shield - AC/Damage mitigation calculated as if person was shield blocking at that time - Reactive Shielding so to speak.

    =============
    Now I won't be disappoint much if none of these are present but the spirit of using a shield as a weapon is preserved that would make me happy.

  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by Enoach View Post
    I would like to see an ability that grants Tower Shield Proficiency. While this won't help the fighter builds it will give the Paladin builds options other than the feat or UMD

    I would like to see an some enhancements for Shield Mastery maybe something along the lines of Combat Styles of Swashbuckler but broken into Buckler/Light/Heavy/Tower

    I would also love to see an ability that gives a chance that a hit is deflected by the shield - AC/Damage mitigation calculated as if person was shield blocking at that time - Reactive Shielding so to speak.
    These are pretty much my thoughts as well.

    I'd also like to see a capstone that makes me at least think about going pure versus splashing.

  4. #4
    Community Member HastyPudding's Avatar
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    The obvious enhancements:

    - You know there is going to be shield bashing enhancements. Severlin already said so and that's what this tree is about: offense with a shield.

    - Doublestrike bonus. This goes hand-in-hand with shields (even the shield feats give doublestrike).

    - Random bonuses. You know, the filler +2/4/6 to elemental resistances, +balance/intimidate, etc while a shield is equipped. Off things to spend those few AP you need to reach the next tier. EVERY enhancement tree has these in it.

    - Spiked shields. You block an attack with your shield, enemy takes damage. Obvious.


    What I want to see:

    - Tower shield proficiency and better max dexterity bonus/dodge cap with them. Fighter has no issue with this, but paladin, for some odd reason, has no innate tower shield proficiency in DDO. Also, if you're an expert with a shield, you should know how to handle heavy ones with ease and not slow you down much.

    - Knockdown immunity in the higher core abilities (like 12 or 18). If you got this big guy with heavy armor and this giant shield, he's going to be tough to sweep off his feet.

    - Bull rush/bulldozer. I so want to see this in DDO; rush to the enemy target and knock them down with your shield on a failed fortitude save.

    - Shield stun. Like stunning blow, but you must have a shield equipped and has a slightly better DC. This should probably be tier 5.

    - For fighters: Tactics DC's out the wazoo. Vanguard just wreaks of the meaning of a fighter; tactical combat.

    - For paladins: improved aura of courage, giving damage and doublestrike bonuses to you and those within your aura. The vanguard is out front in battle, so this helps you and the other melee.

    - Shield bonuses. Enhancement bonus to equipped shields: this would improve both shield bash damage/attack and AC. Also, +[W] and +critical threat/multipliers of equipped shields.

  5. #5
    Community Member Thar's Avatar
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    Dodge bonuses

    low level dps attack like shiradi, rogue, almost every other tree

    DPS DPS DPS... wow attack at tier 5

    AC/prr bonus with shield. 3/5/10% bonus so it scales in epic.

    Auto hate gen on hit or aoe.

    heavy shield + evasion...
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  6. #6
    Community Member LordArkan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Enoach View Post
    I would like to see Bull Rush knock back type ability, a power sprint that knocks back or down an opponent much like the Minotaur do to us. It should be short range but require some distance between person and target before it can hit. Possibly use the same DC abilities tied to Trip. It should have a moderate to long cool down.

    We're never going to see an ability that moves mobs for obvious "the mob AI is terrible"-related reasons, but something with the reach of Staff Lunge with a daze/stun effect attached to it would certainly be cool.
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  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thar View Post
    Dodge bonuses

    low level dps attack like shiradi, rogue, almost every other tree

    DPS DPS DPS... wow attack at tier 5

    AC/prr bonus with shield. 3/5/10% bonus so it scales in epic.

    Auto hate gen on hit or aoe.

    heavy shield + evasion...
    You forgot stun, displacement, wail, FoD, Mass heal, manyshot and bard songs.

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shade_z View Post
    You forgot stun, displacement, wail, FoD, Mass heal, manyshot and bard songs.
    Haha, I was thinking the same thing. Some people just want weapon/shield set ups to be god mode. If the devs get carried away they are just going to make twf pointless.

    If your a fighter or a paladin...an offhand weapon is worth an extra hit 80% of the time with 1/2 of your str mod applied. If on top of all their defensive perks, shields end up getting passive shield bashes, extra stuns/knockdowns, and extra doublestrike, its not going to take much for an offhand weapon to become the newest gimped set up.

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thar View Post
    Dodge bonuses

    low level dps attack like shiradi, rogue, almost every other tree

    DPS DPS DPS... wow attack at tier 5

    AC/prr bonus with shield. 3/5/10% bonus so it scales in epic.

    Auto hate gen on hit or aoe.

    heavy shield + evasion...
    I don't think someone with heavy armor and shield should be dodging more of a damage sink than an avoider

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  10. #10
    Community Member Kalevor's Avatar
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    What i want to see in Vanguard?

    A fun and entertaining tree, i don't need to be powerfull (not weak either) but i want to see some stuff that make me say: oh cool!
    The SB tree have a lot of thematic and funny things, i want the same for vanguard.



    I want to see stuff like:
    - war cry
    - battlerager charge (like the ones in thunderpeaks)
    - a lot of shield hits (tactics)
    - improved shield bash (that actually works)

    That would be awesome.
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  11. #11
    Hatchery Founder Ganak's Avatar
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    Self healing by far is critical to me.

    A fast healing ability and an ability to get hp back based on con stat when killing a mob I understand have been part of pnp vanguard.

    This is make or break for me playing a vanguard as the groups I run with are all byoh.
    The Nak Abides - Ascent - Argonnessen
    Tanak Arcarius (TR) ~ Xanak the Irregular (TR) ~ Sanak the Streak (TR)
    Ganak Goblinjuicer (TR) ~ Panak (TR) ~ Wanak Ryuha (TR) ~ Vanak Ahriman (TR)
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  12. #12
    Hatchery Founder Ganak's Avatar
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    I think fast movement and/or a shield rush similar to abundant step is important to keep the vanguard at the front of the action. Pnp presidence also I believe.
    The Nak Abides - Ascent - Argonnessen
    Tanak Arcarius (TR) ~ Xanak the Irregular (TR) ~ Sanak the Streak (TR)
    Ganak Goblinjuicer (TR) ~ Panak (TR) ~ Wanak Ryuha (TR) ~ Vanak Ahriman (TR)
    Manak Bloodscreamer (TR) ~ Qanak the Absolute (TR) ~ Kanak (TR) ~ Fanak Voltaic(TR)

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nayus View Post
    I played a Swashbuckler for less than a month before I got sick of pwning EE content w/ a first lifer in off-destinies.
    Well keep in mind that all those PDK Swashbuckler Skirmishers can take full advantage of Vanguard too...so anything you give Vanguards could potentially be boosted by all the passive bonuses inherent in Swash.

  14. #14
    Community Member Lonnbeimnech's Avatar
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    Dual wielding shields.

  15. #15
    Hatchery Founder Ganak's Avatar
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    Enduring Warrior: When you drop an enemy to 0 hit points or fewer, you regain hit points equal to your Constitution modifier.

    Advanced 1-hand and shield: The Vanguard acquires Greater Two-Weapon Fighting with a shield and single weapon.
    ,
    The Nak Abides - Ascent - Argonnessen
    Tanak Arcarius (TR) ~ Xanak the Irregular (TR) ~ Sanak the Streak (TR)
    Ganak Goblinjuicer (TR) ~ Panak (TR) ~ Wanak Ryuha (TR) ~ Vanak Ahriman (TR)
    Manak Bloodscreamer (TR) ~ Qanak the Absolute (TR) ~ Kanak (TR) ~ Fanak Voltaic(TR)

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