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  1. #1
    The Hatchery Zoda's Avatar
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    Default Paladin change feedback

    To get straight to the point: paladins got too much power. I'm a lazy person, so for demonstration let me show you 2 videos made by Cetus:

    Live, Cetus build: (25 minutes solo WGU completion)
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0pKjeW6Vc8Y

    Lamania, pure paladin: (19 minute solo WGU completion)
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dhKsLIojXqc

    Same player, different build, ~130ish drop in melee power due to game mechanic changes (more without the pally enhancements), yet 6 minutes faster completion compared to his previous best on live. Now, the Cetus build was widely regarded as the top melee dps build, yet, based on the difference of the completion time of the two recorded runs, a pure paladin does vastly more damage than it with over 100 less melee power (I know, the sample size is small, yet the difference is gigantic). And at that point I haven't even scratched the subject of defense, which a paladin also has way more of, but in itself that would be completely fine.

    The obvious reason for this is the new Holy Sword spell. Compared to similar effects that existed before (staff/knife specialization, swashbuckler stance), Holy Sword has no restriction at all to weapon type (aside from only partly working on wraps... duh), which pushes it way over the top. Other than that it requires no investment in any class tree, which means that a 14-15 paladin/5-6 splash allowes the user to get to tier 5 in whatever other class' tier 5 while stilll enjoying the greatest benefit from paladin (if TWF was competitive at all, or if it wasn't bugged on wraps this would actually be meaningful - as it stands now straight pure pally seems to be the best for melee). This change will also turn paladin to be the king of ranged combat as holy SWORD works just fine on a longbow or a repeater.

    Now my question to developers is: did you really meant paladin to be the king of melee/ranged dps? If the answer is yes, I have no further questions...

    If the answer is no, I'd suggest to restric holy sword to long/short/great/bastard swords at the very (very) least. That way paladin will still probably be king of melee dps, but it'd at least have a good competition with acrobats and centered kensais. Now if you never wanted them to be the top dps class then you can make additional changes, but at that point I'm already moderately satisfied, so I'll leave further tweaking to others...

    Breaking the long reign of Master's Blitz just to replace it with paladin as the only option for competitive/top dps option is not something I'd consider a good change.
    Last edited by Zoda; 08-30-2014 at 10:08 PM. Reason: typo
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  2. #2
    2015 DDO Players Council B0ltdrag0n's Avatar
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    I think a 14 level investment in a class that is otherwise mediocre is a fairly good tradeoff. The fact that Cetus went pure 20 and was Bladeforged might also factor into the build strengths as well.

    That being said were these not the same arguments being made over Bard Splashes...and by that I mean true splashes that went Tier 5 for their autokill ability and very useful dps enhancements?

    I am glad paladin is playable now. I look forward to the next update which will likely have barbarian fixes/changes to it to make it playable. If we are lucky Fighter will be done at or around the same time...Fighter (and by that I mean Kensai) needs very little tweaking but it could use some of course.


    Addendum: Of course most people posting things right now are posting paladin builds because well that is what was changed and everyone wants to experience it to give feed back. This is good. I think it would also be good if more players would take the route Monkey Archer is taking and post existing builds using the new changes as well to see how they are effected. My experience and numbers say they get better and are still as good and better than before overall and that Paladin now is in that top tier range...in the undead heavy update. Enemies they are traditionally good against.
    Last edited by B0ltdrag0n; 08-30-2014 at 10:28 PM.
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    Community Member Takllin's Avatar
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    Honestly, I've felt that Holy Sword should be changed to just +1 crit multiplier on 19-20, +1 crit range, .5[w] and remove the +2 enhancement bonus. This would bring it a lot more in line with other top end melee builds.

    I'd also like to add, that I love the Paladin class, and am very excited that I can now go back to it that it has been given more power, but I feel it is a bit too much.

    Maybe just make the crit multiplier 19-20 only and leave the rest of Holy Sword as is, but I feel as though at least one thing needs to be changed on Holy Sword.
    Last edited by Takllin; 08-30-2014 at 11:00 PM.

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  4. #4
    The Hatchery Zoda's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by B0ltdrag0n View Post
    I think a 14 level investment in a class that is otherwise mediocre is a fairly good tradeoff. The fact that Cetus went pure 20 and was Bladeforged might also factor into the build strengths as well.

    That being said were these not the same arguments being made over Bard Splashes...and by that I mean true splashes that went Tier 5 for their autokill ability and very useful dps enhancements?

    I am glad paladin is playable now. I look forward to the next update which will likely have barbarian fixes/changes to it to make it playable. If we are lucky Fighter will be done at or around the same time...Fighter (and by that I mean Kensai) needs very little tweaking but it could use some of course.


    Addendum: Of course most people posting things right now are posting paladin builds because well that is what was changed and everyone wants to experience it to give feed back. This is good. I think it would also be good if more players would take the route Monkey Archer is taking and post existing builds using the new changes as well to see how they are effected. My experience and numbers say they get better and are still as good and better than before overall and that Paladin now is in that top tier range...in the undead heavy update. Enemies they are traditionally good against.
    Being "mediocre otherwise" makes very little difference when it gets this much power at 14. Besides, I'm not sure what you mean by mediocre, it gets Divine Might, Sacred Defense (no longer restricted to shields so this is very relevant), Divine Grace, Divine Favor, Lay on Hands, cure spells, some nice immunities, the 2 cleaves for free if you chose so, Divine Sacrifice and Exalted Smite. I'm not sure what's your definition of mediocre is but mine is something like... ranger. Then at lvl 15 it gets Zeal too. Noone gives a damn about how "mediocre" it is before level 14, and I never said anything about anything before level 14, I'm talking about Holy Sword (mainly). Go and compare it to any other pure melee class and tell me I'm wrong with a serious face. Or compare it to non 14 pally/x splash builds, the result won't change a whole lot.

    Thanks for commentin on how everything got better, I'd have never imagined that free 100 melee power and the addition of MMR made everything better. duh...

    Yes, I'm excited too that I can play paladin again, I did 3 lives as paladin before tring became super fast and I loved them all, I even played one for a few months on cap. That doesn't mean that I want the game to have something that further breaks the already horrid balance.
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  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zoda View Post
    I'd suggest to restric holy sword to long/short/great/bastard swords at the very (very) least.
    I'd vote Holy Sword should affect "swords."

    For RP reasons: It would be nice to hold on to some bits of the roots this game is based on.

    For Game Balance reasons: It gives other trees a competitive edge without having to go back and either buff those classes/trees or nerf what you buffed in Paladin changes.

  6. #6
    2015 DDO Players Council B0ltdrag0n's Avatar
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    If you want me to say the changes are not overbalanced with a straight face. I am saying that right now. I do nto think it makes them the absolute best. We still have stick builds, various different flavors of Swashbucklers, Shiradi, Furyshot,.

    No this makes them competitive. As for it only affecting swords. Im fine with that but only if it was all swords. Rapiers/scimitars/great/long/short/khop/falchion etc...though I think it is unnecessary as the spell was already changed once to not stack with the only other things that would have made it borderline overpowered.
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    Community Member Monkey_Archer's Avatar
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    Attributing this faster completion time entirely on holy sword, or even dps in general is so incredibly wrong.

    You are ignoring so many more relevant factors:
    • In the live video he makes many questionable decisions. Such as killing unnecessary trash and using a bow.
    • Twitching is increasing his dps by ~10% or so
    • PRR changes lets him basically ignore the trash while focusing pillars, etc... (live version he kills more trash)
    • In general, he has improved his strategy for completing the quest faster


    Holy sword is very strong, but big numbers are not everything. If I were to analyze these videos, I'd say the biggest reason he was able to improve his time was a combination of higher defense and better strategy. Definitely not raw dps.
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  8. #8
    The Hatchery Zoda's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by B0ltdrag0n View Post
    If you want me to say the changes are not overbalanced with a straight face. I am saying that right now. I do nto think it makes them the absolute best. We still have stick builds, various different flavors of Swashbucklers, Shiradi, Furyshot,.

    No this makes them competitive. As for it only affecting swords. Im fine with that but only if it was all swords. Rapiers/scimitars/great/long/short/khop/falchion etc...though I think it is unnecessary as the spell was already changed once to not stack with the only other things that would have made it borderline overpowered.
    Stick builds are tied to Sireth because otherwise their crit profile is garbage and the stats of Sireth are far worse than that of thunderforged weapons other builds can use, and the animation of quartarstaves makes it impossible to twitch with them, and with the glancing blow change that completely takes away the edge of stick builds (which was their attack speed). They are not even close.

    Swashbucklers are tied to finessable one handers, with the change to glancing blows they are at a major disadvantage. Other than that their crit profile is still just simply worse than what a pally gets with a falchion (or equal with a dwarven waraxe if they want to get the best of both words with glancing blows and SWF), and they get less defense and less dps even if we take the crit modifying abilities away from both sides. (yeah I know, go go keep asking for the removal of twitching)

    I don't understand how Shiradi is relevant, it is first of all a destiny not a class and then it is a caster thing and has nothing to do with melee. Completely irrelevant to the discussion here.

    Yes there is Furyshot although once again that's not a class or a build or even a melee, but wanna guess what's the highest dps monkcher split? I won't hide it from you: 14 paladin/6 monk with Holy SWORD. Yay!

    No, this makes paladin clear, unquestionable king of the hill.

    What you "feel" and "think" are not exactly strong arguments compared to solid facts.

    Quote Originally Posted by Monkey_Archer View Post
    Attributing this faster completion time entirely on holy sword, or even dps in general is so incredibly wrong.

    You are ignoring so many more relevant factors:
    • In the live video he makes many questionable decisions. Such as killing unnecessary trash and using a bow.
    • Twitching is increasing his dps by ~10% or so
    • PRR changes lets him basically ignore the trash while focusing pillars, etc... (live version he kills more trash)
    • In general, he has improved his strategy for completing the quest faster


    Holy sword is very strong, but big numbers are not everything. If I were to analyze these videos, I'd say the biggest reason he was able to improve his time was a combination of higher defense and better strategy. Definitely not raw dps.
    Okay, I checked his youtube channel, still considerably faster than his Cetus build completion on Lama (23 minutes). I play enough with him not to want to watch him on youtube too. I know how he plays, I know he is consistent, I know he is a good enough player that I can draw conclusions from his completion times alone, even if not one hundred percent accurate. Especially if I have the numbers in front of me from what I want to draw conclusions.

    edit: the cetus build lama completion was with the 100 melee power version of blitz, not with the 50 one.
    Last edited by Zoda; 08-30-2014 at 11:51 PM.
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  9. #9
    Community Member Monkey_Archer's Avatar
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    Contrary to popular belief, the "cetus" build is not a max dps build. It basically has 8 class levels dedicated to defense. What you are seeing here is an alternative form of defense being able to compete with monk levels on live.
    By lamannia standards, wasting 8 class levels for defense is unnecessary and no longer optimal. Comparing these videos is like saying a pure 20 fighter does more dps then a 12fighter/8sorc. Obviously it does, and it should.
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  10. #10
    2015 DDO Players Council B0ltdrag0n's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zoda View Post
    Stick builds are tied to Sireth because otherwise their crit profile is garbage and the stats of Sireth are far worse than that of thunderforged weapons other builds can use, and the animation of quartarstaves makes it impossible to twitch with them, and with the glancing blow change that completely takes away the edge of stick builds (which was their attack speed). They are not even close.
    I really dont want to bring up glances on moving(staffs do get this as well) and/or twitching into it again. But lets just say that has a fairly large impact on numbers.

    Swashbucklers are tied to finessable one handers, with the change to glancing blows they are at a major disadvantage. Other than that their crit profile is still just simply worse than what a pally gets with a falchion (or equal with a dwarven waraxe if they want to get the best of both words with glancing blows and SWF), and they get less defense and less dps even if we take the crit modifying abilities away from both sides. (yeah I know, go go keep asking for the removal of twitching)

    I don't understand how Shiradi is relevant, it is first of all a destiny not a class and then it is a caster thing and has nothing to do with melee. Completely irrelevant to the discussion here.

    Yes there is Furyshot although once again that's not a class or a build or even a melee, but wanna guess what's the highest dps monkcher split? I won't hide it from you: 14 paladin/6 monk with Holy SWORD. Yay!
    All of these build are clearly in the top end of builds and thus relevant. These are top end DPS builds Paladin splits of various kinds can now compete more or less with them. As for 14 Paladin 6 monk. I agree it will be a good monkcher build except you do give up the ability to swap to melee, you lose LD as a viable option forcing you to Fury, which eliminates the Defensive tree benefits for most of your up time in dps.

    No, this makes paladin clear, unquestionable king of the hill.

    What you "feel" and "think" are not exactly strong arguments compared to solid facts.
    It is not unquestionably so.

    Same to you a few videos cannot be solidly factual because there are far too many changes happening at once. Moneky is much more correct this is not attributed to Holy sword on its own.

    Okay, I checked his youtube channel, still considerably faster than his Cetus build completion on Lama (23 minutes). I play enough with him not to want to watch him on youtube too. I know how he plays, I know he is consistent, I know he is a good enough player that I can draw conclusions from his completion times alone, even if not one hundred percent accurate. Especially if I have the numbers in front of me from what I want to draw conclusions.

    edit: the cetus build lama completion was with the 100 melee power version of blitz, not with the 50 one.
    I will say this at least you see the limitations of the data set you are concluding from, In this case, Holy Sword. Though I had a feeling from prevoius discussion back and forth you did run in game with Cetus already. People that play together often think similarly to many topics.
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    The Hatchery Zoda's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Monkey_Archer View Post
    Contrary to popular belief, the "cetus" build is not a max dps build. It basically has 8 class levels dedicated to defense.
    Which 8 levles are purely defensive? Please, do tell! The 6 monk that provides Dance of Flowers + Fist of Iron + Master Mountain Stance + Ninja Posion + some sneak attack, with the 2 paladin that provides 17 str with Divine might? Or 4 monk and 4 fighter?

    One of us does not understand his build. I really hope it's not me.

    I don't see how comparing these builds is irrelevant. Comparing Holy Sword builds to anything is very relevant, but if you have a higher DPS non holy sword build you want to compare it to, then please, do share! If it is a real build (I mean not some barbarian X bard Y realying on being raged and tied to a healer), then I will be the happiest if you prove me wrong.

    Quote Originally Posted by B0ltdrag0n View Post
    I really dont want to bring up glances on moving(staffs do get this as well) and/or twitching into it again. But lets just say that has a fairly large impact on numbers.

    I will say this at least you see the limitations of the data set you are concluding from, In this case, Holy Sword. Though I had a feeling from prevoius discussion back and forth you did run in game with Cetus already. People that play together often think similarly to many topics.
    If you just shut your eyes tight enough twitching will disappear. I swear that's how things work.

    Yes we run together. We have long discussions on teamspeak too. We agreed on that pure pally is the highest reachable melee dps build too. Although I think he will hate me for posting this thread.
    Last edited by Zoda; 08-31-2014 at 12:34 AM.
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  12. #12
    Community Member Monkey_Archer's Avatar
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    Does the barbarian bard count if I can keep it alive without a healer?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zoda View Post
    Which 8 levles are purely defensive? Please, do tell! The 6 monk that provides Dance of Flowers + Fist of Iron + Master Mountain Stance + Ninja Posion + some sneak attack, with the 2 paladin that provides 17 str with Divine might? Or 4 monk and 4 fighter?

    One of us does not understand his build. I really hope it's not me.
    You can get divine might for much cheaper from cleric or fvs, so the pally levels are 100% for defence. Mountain stance should be less DPS than wind, not sure where the other 6 pure defensive levels are though.

    In any case I'm still not sure paladins out DPS druids, they've been the kings for a while now not centred BFs or bards.

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    2015 DDO Players Council B0ltdrag0n's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zoda View Post


    If you just shut your eyes tight enough twitching will disappear. I swear that's how things work.

    Yes we run together. We have long discussions on teamspeak too. We agreed on that pure pally is the highest reachable melee dps build too. Although I think he will hate me for posting this thread.

    I wish that that first part were true I still do not agree, even from my testing it is appearing that it is not the absolute best, but it is in the top 10 melee builds possibly the top 2-4 depending on the factors of gameplay.

    Far better cry than being just above barbarian from before.
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    The Hatchery Zoda's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Monkey_Archer View Post
    Does the barbarian bard count if I can keep it alive without a healer?
    As long as you are not planning to keep it alive with store/card pots, it does, it can be done fairly easily with SF pots. I did play some SF pot builds back in their day and they are strong, and incredibely uncomfortable... those pots should stack to a hundred like others.

    Actually if you play DC the selfheals get better, but the lack of glancing blows still make me think it will have a lot worse dps... Here is a tip: use celestia, only way to get glancing blows while swashbuckling.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zoda View Post
    As long as you are not planning to keep it alive with store/card pots, it does, it can be done fairly easily with SF pots. I did play some SF pot builds back in their day and they are strong, and incredibely uncomfortable... those pots should stack to a hundred like others.

    Actually if you play DC the selfheals get better, but the lack of glancing blows still make me think it will have a lot worse dps... Here is a tip: use celestia, only way to get glancing blows while swashbuckling.
    While leveling up, sun blade and star of day also work.

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    A few things:

    It bugs me that some Paladin Spell Durations are extremely short.
    [L1 Spell] Divine Favor; Duration is extremely short. Should either be double what it is now, or a base time + bonus per level
    [L2 spell] Angelskin; same

    Bladeforged: should get Repair Skill for normal AP in their Skill/Ability Selection

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    Quote Originally Posted by Zoda View Post
    If the answer is no, I'd suggest to restric holy sword to long/short/great/bastard swords at the very (very) least.
    Or make Holy Sword give a choice of +1 crit mult or +1 crit range, but not both at the same time.
    Or make Holy Sword + Zeal scale up bonuses according to your class levels above 14.
    Or Holy Sword doesn't give the full buff power unless you have an enhancement from t5 KOTC / Sacdef.
    Or...

  19. #19
    Community Member Lonnbeimnech's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zoda View Post
    Which 8 levles are purely defensive? Please, do tell! The 6 monk that provides Dance of Flowers + Fist of Iron + Master Mountain Stance + Ninja Posion + some sneak attack, with the 2 paladin that provides 17 str with Divine might? Or 4 monk and 4 fighter?

    One of us does not understand his build. I really hope it's not me.

    I don't see how comparing these builds is irrelevant. Comparing Holy Sword builds to anything is very relevant, but if you have a higher DPS non holy sword build you want to compare it to, then please, do share! If it is a real build (I mean not some barbarian X bard Y realying on being raged and tied to a healer), then I will be the happiest if you prove me wrong.



    If you just shut your eyes tight enough twitching will disappear. I swear that's how things work.

    Yes we run together. We have long discussions on teamspeak too. We agreed on that pure pally is the highest reachable melee dps build too. Although I think he will hate me for posting this thread.
    It's not a max dps build because it's not a winter wolf.

  20. #20
    The Hatchery Zoda's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lonnbeimnech View Post
    It's not a max dps build because it's not a winter wolf.
    You got me there. Damn...

    Quote Originally Posted by Scrabbler View Post
    Or make Holy Sword give a choice of +1 crit mult or +1 crit range, but not both at the same time.
    Or make Holy Sword + Zeal scale up bonuses according to your class levels above 14.
    Or Holy Sword doesn't give the full buff power unless you have an enhancement from t5 KOTC / Sacdef.
    Or...
    Don't see the point of tying it to paladin level, as pure is already just about optimal.

    EDIT: I don't want to post a new thread just for this, figured I ask here, because it'd be useful for testing... I want to record some videos on lama, but my TR cache got delete when I copied my toon over with all my displacement clickies (didn't need them for bard life... duh). Is there an easy button to get those?
    Last edited by Zoda; 08-31-2014 at 02:24 AM.
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