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  1. #1
    Community Member AtomicMew's Avatar
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    Default proposed melee changes do not reign in melee DPS and power enough, if anything

    So, it's becoming increasingly clear that melee are just way too powerful compared to other playstyles. It's good that devs are trying to implement more sane adjustments, but it's not enough. More profound and qualiatively different nerfs are needed. Here's what should happen:

    1) I actually think that we should give melee toons negative melee power to start with. -20 or -30 should be a good number. This means 80% to 70% compared to current live, where melee are dominating all speed records. (As I said in previous threads, if you disagree? Prove it!). If we keep piling on buff after buff to melee classes, it'll just become even more ridiculous than it currently is. By setting a lower than current live baseline, devs have a lot more room to adjust new content gear and any new PrEs/destinies.

    2) Reduce PRR formula adjustments and reduce or remove heavy armor adjustments. Proposed armor and PRR changes and MRR addition is virtual god mode. Having 150 PRR + 60 DR is just ridiculous. Instead, full tank spec melee should roughly achieve 30 DR and max out at around 60 PRR. The formula itself should be adjusted to around 200/(200+PRR). Thus you would need 200 PRR to achieve 50% damage reduction.

    3) Blitz epic moment changed to an actual moment. 50 melee power is kind of a lot, it should be reduced to around 30-35 to keep in line with other epic moments. It should also have a maximum duration of say 30 seconds with a 5 minute cooldown. Again, Blitz is a MOMENT not a passive buff.

    K thx
    Last edited by AtomicMew; 08-29-2014 at 04:19 PM.

  2. #2
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    Why do you post things?

  3. #3
    Community Member the_one_dwarfforged's Avatar
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    armor changes are needed, pure and simple. melee power i think could be reduced by just a *tiny* bit more considering the new defenses traditional melees are gaining.

    where you lose me is when you suggest that melees get even weaker, despite getting an overall 3/5 power reduction compared to current blitz, while also suggesting that casters get more damage.

    you do realize that whole whole point of melee power was to be an equivalent of spell power right? take a max mp build vs a max sp build. who gets the higher number?
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  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by AtomicMew View Post
    So, it's becoming increasingly clear that melee are just way too powerful compared to other playstyles. It's good that devs are trying to implement more sane adjustments, but it's not enough. More profound and qualiatively different nerfs are needed. Here's what should happen:

    1) I actually think that we should give melee toons negative melee power to start with. -20 or -30 should be a good number. This means 80% to 70% compared to current live, where melee are dominating all speed records. (As I said in previous threads, if you disagree? Prove it!). If we keep piling on buff after buff to melee classes, it'll just become even more ridiculous than it currently is. By setting a lower than current live baseline, devs have a lot more room to adjust new content gear and any new PrEs/destinies.

    2) Reduce PRR formula adjustments and reduce or remove heavy armor adjustments. Proposed armor and PRR changes and MRR addition is virtual god mode. Having 150 PRR + 60 DR is just ridiculous. Instead, full tank spec melee should roughly achieve 30 DR and max out at around 60 PRR. The formula itself should be adjusted to around 200/(200+PRR). Thus you would need 200 PRR to achieve 50% damage reduction.

    3) Blitz epic moment changed to an actual moment. 50 melee power is kind of a lot, it should be reduced to around 30-35 to keep in line with other epic moments. It should also have a maximum duration of say 30 seconds with a 5 minute cooldown. Again, Blitz is a MOMENT not a passive buff.

    K thx
    have you played a melee at cap?

    or are you just watching vids of the very best possible melee builds played by the best players our game has to offer and declaring melee to be overpowered?
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  5. #5
    Community Member tiamat1985's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ReaperAlexEU View Post
    have you played a melee at cap?

    or are you just watching vids of the very best possible melee builds played by the best players our game has to offer and declaring melee to be overpowered?
    Have you ever played a caster at cap?
    Not a shiradi caster, a real caster, like a draconic, magister, exalted angel etc... Try to solo an endgame EE quest with that caster! THAT is a real pain without consuming tons of sp pot of course or using a Torc... and still more time consuming than a melee run.

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    Quote Originally Posted by tiamat1985 View Post
    Have you ever played a caster at cap?
    Not a shiradi caster, a real caster, like a draconic, magister, exalted angel etc... Try to solo an endgame EE quest with that caster! THAT is a real pain without consuming tons of sp pot of course or using a Torc... and still more time consuming than a melee run.
    That begs the question .... Have you ever player a caster at cap?

  7. #7
    Community Member Takllin's Avatar
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    What is this, the fifth thread you have started this week about this?

    Can a dev please lock this, so we can keep all of this melee power/prr/mrr hatred in just one place please. It is very annoying to see another one of these pop up every day or so...

    As for your suggestions, they are just completely assinine...

    Yes, lets make almost every melee class, which need the most help, barely better than they are on live, because a few of the very best players hold some speed record runs...

    You do realize, that there is a lot more that a caster can do than just DPS right? That a melee can't? Every class has trade offs, stop trying to suggest this game become a vanilla version, where every class does the same thing just with a different icon...

    They have the best CC, instakill and self healing, arguably best defenses too because they can still do all their DPS whether they are in a mobs face, or 10 yards away...and they have very good DPS right now...and you want to give them even more power? So that the only thing people play are casters?

    Another note, for a speed run, are you really asking that casters use 0 SP potions?? The whole point of a speed run, is to use anything and everything at your disposal, that is not exploiting, to complete the quest as fast as possible... That is like telling melee they can't use displacement clickies, SP pots, scrolls et cetera...
    Last edited by Takllin; 08-29-2014 at 11:55 PM.

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  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by AtomicMew View Post
    So, it's becoming increasingly clear that melee are just way too powerful compared to other playstyles. It's good that devs are trying to implement more sane adjustments, but it's not enough. More profound and qualiatively different nerfs are needed. Here's what should happen:

    1) I actually think that we should give melee toons negative melee power to start with. -20 or -30 should be a good number. This means 80% to 70% compared to current live, where melee are dominating all speed records. (As I said in previous threads, if you disagree? Prove it!). If we keep piling on buff after buff to melee classes, it'll just become even more ridiculous than it currently is. By setting a lower than current live baseline, devs have a lot more room to adjust new content gear and any new PrEs/destinies.

    2) Reduce PRR formula adjustments and reduce or remove heavy armor adjustments. Proposed armor and PRR changes and MRR addition is virtual god mode. Having 150 PRR + 60 DR is just ridiculous. Instead, full tank spec melee should roughly achieve 30 DR and max out at around 60 PRR. The formula itself should be adjusted to around 200/(200+PRR). Thus you would need 200 PRR to achieve 50% damage reduction.

    3) Blitz epic moment changed to an actual moment. 50 melee power is kind of a lot, it should be reduced to around 30-35 to keep in line with other epic moments. It should also have a maximum duration of say 30 seconds with a 5 minute cooldown. Again, Blitz is a MOMENT not a passive buff.

    K thx
    I can't decide whether this is a total troll post or if the OP truly thinks the game would be better off if melee was unplayable beyond normal difficulty and just plain no fun otherwise.

  9. #9
    Community Member Forzah's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gremmlynn View Post
    I can't decide whether this is a total troll post or if the OP truly thinks the game would be better off if melee was unplayable beyond normal difficulty and just plain no fun otherwise.
    He obviously only plays casters....

  10. #10
    Community Member AtomicMew's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gremmlynn View Post
    I can't decide whether this is a total troll post or if the OP truly thinks the game would be better off if melee was unplayable beyond normal difficulty and just plain no fun otherwise.
    Melees are still soloing end game EEs like knife through melted butter. Cetus did EE WGU in 19 minutes on current lamma. That's faster than ANYONE on current live. Divine Crusader is completely *** overpowered. Paladins and armor changes are overwhelming. Blitz is stilll OP too. It's more than obvious to sane players that melee needs to still be reined in some more.

    Devs can't just buff buff buff all the time because that leads to a stale an boring end game with no challenge. Some times nerfs are necessary. It's time.

    Melee should not be buffed in U23. They are already too OP on live as it is. There is no better time than now for melee nerf. Some times trimming a tree bears more fruit than simply dumping more fertilizer on it. The game needs nerf now more than ever so there is room to grow.
    Last edited by AtomicMew; 08-30-2014 at 04:28 AM.

  11. #11
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    Negative melee is just little too much.. Lets be honest here, none 1st lifer should be able to solo most difficult EEs with ease. It's just not right. However, since we are talking about the melee power, I would like to mention a spell craft. It's already proven that even divine casters can get SC to as high as 65+. That would mean, 65% damage increase.. Now, I'm not going against anyone here. However, 65% boost is pretty significant, for that reason, I don't believe casters are all forgotten like some people might say. I'm sure if this melee power ends up being too OP, there will be some changes.

    Moving on to Prr/Mrr changes. In my opinion, it was very much needed. This new system not nessecery affect melees only, but casters. Divines for example. On my FvS evoker, I currently have 102 prr, 40% damage reduction and ontop of that, I'll have mrr. Arcaners can choose to equip armors as well, possibly with arcane failure argument. But, mainly melees will benefit and it sounds right as they are close range.. Also, good thing to note that, there will be no melee power items what so ever in U23.. because melee power is still under the test. No matter what we say here, those changes are inevitable.

  12. #12
    Community Member Wizza's Avatar
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    I actually agree with you, only about the defenses. Not because I want melees to be nerfed to hell, but because this is getting ridicolous. The PRR and MRR changes are ridicolously wrong and needs to be changed. I like your formula.
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  13. #13
    The Hatchery Wipey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by moo_cow View Post
    That begs the question .... Have you ever player a caster at cap?
    That begs the ... no.
    I know you play awesome fleshie sorc ( well it's basically you, Kokaisa and Farwil which I have respect for and know you guys know your stuff ), but what do you think about Palemaster or Godforbid Cleric or Fvs relative offense compared to melee ? And I don't mean easy stuff where half arsed DCs are no fail.
    Maybe I just suck at playing those after five years haha but no matter how I approach the quests, I'd always run into sp problems. GH is so so because I would have DC for trash and spell points for 100k bosses, but solo Ranks or WGU or even Tracker on Cleric ? I just can't do that without bagazilion pots and frustration with my TOP DCs.
    While I don't have to think twice about doing that on Ranger or now Pally. Monkcher is off the charts obviously.
    What do you think ?

    Maybe it's irrelevant question to this thread but often it's " I'd better bring this other toon" already.
    Last edited by Wipey; 08-30-2014 at 05:52 AM.
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  14. #14
    Community Member Wizza's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wipey View Post
    That begs the ... no.
    I know you play awesome fleshie sorc ( well it's basically you, Kokaisa and Farwil which I have respect for and know you guys know your stuff ), but what do you think about Palemaster or Godforbid Cleric or Fvs relative offense compared to melee ? And I don't mean easy stuff where half arsed DCs are no fail.
    Maybe I just suck at playing those after five years haha but no matter how I approach the quests, I'd always run into sp problems. GH is so so because I would have DC for trash and spell points for 100k bosses, but solo Ranks or WGU or even Tracker on Cleric ? I just can't do that without bagazilion pots and frustration with my TOP DCs.
    While I don't have to think twice about doing that on Ranger or now Pally. Monkcher is off the charts obviously.
    What do you think ?

    Maybe it's irrelevant question to this thread but often it's " I'd better bring this other toon" already.

    My view on your question is this:

    You are Cleric. You are NOT supposed to bring SIGNIFICANT dps to the party. Yes, this is an old school thought probably but I blame Turbine for this. They killed the need for Healing even in the toughest content, thus bringing down the utility of said classes (Cleric, FVS) which EXCELS at keeping the party alive. Your DPS will be never meaningful (I'd like to point out MEANINGFUL, you still have some DPS and some of the better Spells like Blade Barrier and Implosion, when that gets fixed), specially in EE Raids, unless they really revamp some of your spellbook. Hence why you're better off by bringing your other toons in any quest.

    I'd LOVE to see FVS/Clr in my groups. I'm really sick of seeing the same classes. All I see nowdays is: Monkchers, Fighters splashed monks, Sorcerers, Druids, now some bards.

    Artificiers disappeared from this game, so have barbarians. Wizard are really really rare, excluding some Shiradi builds. Cleric and FVS: nop, not to be seen anywhere. And even if you see a FVS, it's some splashed-shiradi build.

    U24 is going to be similar: Fighters will disappear and all we are going to see is Paladins' icons.

    About Palemasters: I hope the Harper tree is actually bringing some DC Wizards back in the game, hopefully not some shiradi build but actually Wizards.
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  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by AtomicMew View Post
    Melees are still soloing end game EEs like knife through melted butter. Cetus did EE WGU in 19 minutes on current lamma. That's faster than ANYONE on current live. Divine Crusader is completely *** overpowered. Paladins and armor changes are overwhelming. Blitz is stilll OP too. It's more than obvious to sane players that melee needs to still be reined in some more.

    Devs can't just buff buff buff all the time because that leads to a stale an boring end game with no challenge. Some times nerfs are necessary. It's time.

    Melee should not be buffed in U23. They are already too OP on live as it is. There is no better time than now for melee nerf. Some times trimming a tree bears more fruit than simply dumping more fertilizer on it. The game needs nerf now more than ever so there is room to grow.
    no, melee's are not soloing EE's like a knife through butter. the very best DDO gamers are soloing EE's like a knife through butter. the top 5% of all players. that is not a basis for balancing the game on

    you are looking at players who can already solo EE's on a melee. anything done to make melee viable in EE will make life easier for those that can already solo EE's.

    you've not played a melee at end game so you have no idea what you're crying nerf over.
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  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by tiamat1985 View Post
    Have you ever played a caster at cap?
    Not a shiradi caster, a real caster, like a draconic, magister, exalted angel etc... Try to solo an endgame EE quest with that caster! THAT is a real pain without consuming tons of sp pot of course or using a Torc... and still more time consuming than a melee run.
    this update is aimed at making melee in EE viable. it does nothing to change the game for ranged or caster builds. the devs have already mentioned they wish to do a pass on ranged builds to bring the "normal" ranged builds up to par (moncher vs archer in the same way we have shiradi vs magister). i'd not be in the least bit surprised if they took a look at the way casting has been polarised at some point.

    but that is not this update. this update is melee, trying to help the hordes of regular melee players who are in the same boat as the draconics and magisters you think are put upon.

    this is not about the FOTM builds, this is about all the rest.

    atomic is crying nerf because the FOTM leaders, the ones that create the very best builds, the ones that actually get them fully kitted out in perfect gear are posting vids of them roflestomping EE content. well they will always power through the toughest content. they are the best, the build the best and they will always be the best. this update is not about them, it's about the rest of us

    imagine if you will turbine doing a pass on casting. the initial changes looked promising and would make the draconics and magisters a lot better to play in EE's. then some melee player started campaigning to have the changes removed because the shiradis were able to get through quests faster than they used to with even less SP use letting them bring out the nukes more often. that is what atomic is doing right now to the melee changes.
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  17. #17
    Community Member psykopeta's Avatar
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    u have a really big problem, u are comparing top players with noob players

    doesnt matter what turbine does, the difference will be the same, ever

    while u need to chug 1322348723 pots to complete a quest, i don't even shrine, yes, draconic

    so tune up the hands, don't tune down the other players chances

    if let's say XX player is already soloing the quest on ee, who the hell cares if now he can do it easier? at least this way other players have some chances to do it now

    cause i guess the objective is everybody being able to solo every quest, if not they weren't boosting every aspect of the game instead of balancing (right now mobs need a tune up, til dc whiners come again, and the wheel keeps spinning)
    psykopeta - hoarding pl, for the sake of hoarding, the day i become ubercompletionist will be because there isn't anything to delay it more - thelanis, where the gimps claim to be pros and noobs claim to be pros, no newbies allowed(unless they claim to be pros), we have enough drama w/o them. PS i'm not a pro, maybe if i reincarnate in RL...

  18. #18
    Community Member Pescha's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by psykopeta View Post
    u have a really big problem, u are comparing top players with noob players

    doesnt matter what turbine does, the difference will be the same, ever

    while u need to chug 1322348723 pots to complete a quest, i don't even shrine, yes, draconic

    so tune up the hands, don't tune down the other players chances

    if let's say xx player is already soloing the quest on ee, who the hell cares if now he can do it easier? At least this way other players have some chances to do it now

    cause i guess the objective is everybody being able to solo every quest, if not they weren't boosting every aspect of the game instead of balancing (right now mobs need a tune up, til dc whiners come again, and the wheel keeps spinning)
    this !

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by psykopeta View Post
    u have a really big problem, u are comparing top players with noob players

    doesnt matter what turbine does, the difference will be the same, ever

    while u need to chug 1322348723 pots to complete a quest, i don't even shrine, yes, draconic

    so tune up the hands, don't tune down the other players chances

    if let's say XX player is already soloing the quest on ee, who the hell cares if now he can do it easier? at least this way other players have some chances to do it now

    cause i guess the objective is everybody being able to solo every quest, if not they weren't boosting every aspect of the game instead of balancing (right now mobs need a tune up, til dc whiners come again, and the wheel keeps spinning)
    is there any way you could post a vid of you powering through a tough quest blowing things to bits? that way atomic might stop crying nerf at the best melee builds and realise that maybe there is something they can do to improve their own caster.
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  20. #20
    Community Member Ausdoerrt's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AtomicMew View Post
    So, it's becoming increasingly clear that melee are just way too powerful compared to other playstyles. It's good that devs are trying to implement more sane adjustments, but it's not enough. More profound and qualiatively different nerfs are needed. Here's what should happen:

    1) I actually think that we should give melee toons negative melee power to start with. -20 or -30 should be a good number. This means 80% to 70% compared to current live, where melee are dominating all speed records. (As I said in previous threads, if you disagree? Prove it!). If we keep piling on buff after buff to melee classes, it'll just become even more ridiculous than it currently is. By setting a lower than current live baseline, devs have a lot more room to adjust new content gear and any new PrEs/destinies.

    2) Reduce PRR formula adjustments and reduce or remove heavy armor adjustments. Proposed armor and PRR changes and MRR addition is virtual god mode. Having 150 PRR + 60 DR is just ridiculous. Instead, full tank spec melee should roughly achieve 30 DR and max out at around 60 PRR. The formula itself should be adjusted to around 200/(200+PRR). Thus you would need 200 PRR to achieve 50% damage reduction.

    3) Blitz epic moment changed to an actual moment. 50 melee power is kind of a lot, it should be reduced to around 30-35 to keep in line with other epic moments. It should also have a maximum duration of say 30 seconds with a 5 minute cooldown. Again, Blitz is a MOMENT not a passive buff.

    K thx
    "People are stupid; given proper motivation, almost anyone will believe almost anything. ... People's heads are full of knowledge, facts, and beliefs, and most of it is false, yet they think it all true." Terry Goodkind

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